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Transhumanism is good, but Synthesis is a trick. Why Destroyers are not luddites.


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#351
sH0tgUn jUliA

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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Snip..


Its still genocide. Genocide refers to the total elimination of a group that shares common characteristics, although species may be one of these links it is neither a requirement or any more significant than any other linking factor.


Maybe so, but in this case it is justified. It is the elimination of a group that shares the common characteristic of having carried out perhaps 220,000 genocides (based on 20,000 cycles and 11 advanced organic species per cycle). So we'll put Shepard in the same category as Marshall Raylan Givens.

#352
1337b0r0m1r

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Auld Wulf wrote...

Also, people don't seem to understand what genocide means, and that makes me sigh. There's the intent to protect oneself when under fire (the geth against the quarians), and then there's the intent to destroy every member of an entire species even when you're not being attacked (the quarians against the geth).

Destroy is genocide because you have a choice, and you're not being forced. You could choose Control and simply take over reaper technology and free the various reaper consensuses yourself. If Synthesis is off-putting to you, then why not choose Control? If you choose Destroy, then that is genocide. Genocide is the intent to kill an entire species, and making that choice. Destroy Shep is a genocidal madman.


First, Destroy is only genocide if you consider the Geth as species, race or ethnic group, and since they are synthetics, this case is not that clear-cut, although the game strongly suggests so, admittedly. And you only need to care about that if you did actually save the Geth. As someone else noted, saving the Geth means letting them make use of reaper technology, and as that never worked out well in all past instances, there were good reasons for not refusing that.

Second, the case for Control is not that clear-cut either, not by a wide margin. Who is to say that the Shepard-VI won't go down the same road eventually as the Catalyst? Or that some future power-hungry and savvy people will succeed in the future in what Cerberus did not quite manage yet? Or that there should exist such a force with the power to eliminate all life at all? If you choose Control, chances are that future generations will pay dearly for that.

Modifié par 1337b0r0m1r, 14 février 2013 - 09:38 .


#353
AlanC9

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1337b0r0m1r wrote...
Second, the case for Control is not that clear-cut either, not by a wide margin. Who is to say that the Shepard-VI won't go down the same road eventually as the Catalyst? Or that some future power-hungry and savvy people will succeed in the future in what Cerberus did not quite manage yet? Or that there should exist such a force with the power to eliminate all life at all? If you choose Control, chances are that future generations will pay dearly for that.


If the Sheplyst would go down the Catalyst's path, that means the Catalyst was right all along and you should pick Synthesis. 

#354
Guest_john_sheparrd_*

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in other words: synthesis is bull****

#355
clennon8

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john_sheparrd wrote...

in other words: synthesis is bull****

Please go away.  Thank you.

Modifié par clennon8, 14 février 2013 - 10:35 .


#356
Reorte

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DirtySHISN0 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Snip..


Its still genocide. Genocide refers to the total elimination of a group that shares common characteristics, although species may be one of these links it is neither a requirement or any more significant than any other linking factor.
Characteristics can be racially, politically or even religiously motivated.

There's more to it than that - it has to be your deliberate purpose too. Motivation matters as much as physical results. It's large scale murder not large scale manslaughter.

#357
Reorte

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AlanC9 wrote...

1337b0r0m1r wrote...
Second, the case for Control is not that clear-cut either, not by a wide margin. Who is to say that the Shepard-VI won't go down the same road eventually as the Catalyst? Or that some future power-hungry and savvy people will succeed in the future in what Cerberus did not quite manage yet? Or that there should exist such a force with the power to eliminate all life at all? If you choose Control, chances are that future generations will pay dearly for that.


If the Sheplyst would go down the Catalyst's path, that means the Catalyst was right all along and you should pick Synthesis.

Indeed. You'd have to at the very least demonstrate conclusively that one of the alternatives isn't even worse. Even if you can do that I'm still not convinced. Doing something that you know will get someone hurt isn't the same thing as setting out to hurt them even if the results are the same.

#358
Ieldra

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Here's my take on the "genocide" matter (and no, agreeing with the pro-Destroy people in this does NOT mean I agree with the statement in the title of this thread. Synthesis is not a trick):

Destroy kills all the synthetics. I'm going to assume that people, as a rule, would avoid that if they reasonably could. In an absolute sense, yes, we can avoid it, but what is the price? It's quite possible to think that both Control and Synthesis will have effects of greater ethical significance than killing the geth, and if you sincerely believe that you are obliged to choose Destroy

This is most obvious in Synthesis, where you are making a galaxy-wide change to all intelligent life. If you think the change made is generally good, you can weigh it against the death of the geth and depending on your personal ethics, your decision can turn out either way. If, however, you think the change is generally bad, then the moral downside of Synthesis can easily outweigh the death of the geth.

The same with Control. Setting up a god-like entity to guide the galaxy affects everyone. You don't even need to assume an eternal reign of terror to find possible downsides that outweigh the death of the geth, because Control is centered around the idea that we cannot rule ourselves without eventually causing our own destruction. If this assumption is wrong, you are potentially denying autonomy to all of civilization for no reason at all. Even worse: it is possible that the mere existence of a godlike entity in the galaxy will make civilization stagnate. If I choose Control, I am claiming that the Control Entity will take active measures to prevent that from happening, but against that is the reasonable stance of others "I wouldn't trust myself with that much power".

So, if you find the death of the geth undesirable but think that the downsides of the other endings outweigh that, then you are not committing genocide if you choose Destroy. My position is, of course, that the downsides of Control or Synthesis do not necessarily outweigh the death of the geth, but such scenarios are certainly possible. I, myself, would certainly not want to live in a galaxy ruled by an AI inspired by my May Shepard's personality.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 février 2013 - 11:10 .


#359
DirtySHISN0

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Maybe so, but in this case it is justified. It is the elimination of a group that shares the common characteristic of having carried out perhaps 220,000 genocides (based on 20,000 cycles and 11 advanced organic species per cycle). So we'll put Shepard in the same category as Marshall Raylan Givens.


I'm not arguing that the reapers shouldn't be stopped - just that in the case of destroy even if you exclude the other synthetics as collateral, it still counts as genocide because technically the reapers are a faction.

Just being a stickler about terms, sorry.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 14 février 2013 - 11:39 .


#360
DirtySHISN0

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Reorte wrote...

There's more to it than that - it has to be your deliberate purpose too. Motivation matters as much as physical results. It's large scale murder not large scale manslaughter.


Are we talking about Synthetics as casualties/collateral or just the reapers?

I meant the reapers.

#361
DirtySHISN0

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

"Total elimination" is not part of the definition of the word. Being deliberate, however, is.


Yes, well i was trying to find a phase to explain majorative loss of a faction - looking back this might have done.

Well done, sir.

You got me.

#362
Eshaye

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I can't believe people are still arguing the endings..... How long has it been? Can you not just play the endings choices as you have with the other choices? Different Shepards will do different things and it makes not a lick of actual difference.

O.o

#363
fr33stylez

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lol, I'm sorry but I can't consider the Reapers a 'race' - they're AI machines constructed every 50K years simply infused (somehow) with blended organic purée. That's all.

#364
masster blaster

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's my take on the "genocide" matter (and no, agreeing with the pro-Destroy people in this does NOT mean I agree with the statement in the title of this thread. Synthesis is not a trick):

Destroy kills all the synthetics. I'm going to assume that people, as a rule, would avoid that if they reasonably could. In an absolute sense, yes, we can avoid it, but what is the price? It's quite possible to think that both Control and Synthesis will have effects of greater ethical significance than killing the geth, and if you sincerely believe that you are obliged to choose Destroy

This is most obvious in Synthesis, where you are making a galaxy-wide change to all intelligent life. If you think the change made is generally good, you can weigh it against the death of the geth and depending on your personal ethics, your decision can turn out either way. If, however, you think the change is generally bad, then the moral downside of Synthesis can easily outweigh the death of the geth.

The same with Control. Setting up a god-like entity to guide the galaxy affects everyone. You don't even need to assume an eternal reign of terror to find possible downsides that outweigh the death of the geth, because Control is centered around the idea that we cannot rule ourselves without eventually causing our own destruction. If this assumption is wrong, you are potentially denying autonomy to all of civilization for no reason at all. Even worse: it is possible that the mere existence of a godlike entity in the galaxy will make civilization stagnate. If I choose Control, I am claiming that the Control Entity will take active measures to prevent that from happening, but against that is the reasonable stance of others "I wouldn't trust myself with that much power".

So, if you find the death of the geth undesirable but think that the downsides of the other endings outweigh that, then you are not committing genocide if you choose Destroy. My position is, of course, that the downsides of Control or Synthesis do not necessarily outweigh the death of the geth, but such scenarios are certainly possible. I, myself, would certainly not want to live in a galaxy ruled by an AI inspired by my May Shepard's personality.



Facepalm. Oh so Synthesis is the best ending then. Let's see. Catalyst said Synthesis CAN NOT be FORCED. What do in synthesis. That's right we force it on everyone. Then let's take a look at everyone in synthesis when the wave hits everyone. Oh so everyone stops fighting all because one wave of overwriting everyones DNA, which I like to remind you Synthetics don't HAVE DNA, but FrameWork. Oyu mean to tell me by giving a Synthetic DNA, it's not going to affect their way of thinking? Ya great. Then we see the HUSK come back to LIFE! My god you brought the dead back in that form. They have to live like that forever right now. Do you think it was better to save them like this, other than killing them in Destroy. Not to mention wouldn't they be pissed at the Reapers, yet that's not the case right. Everyone is nice to the Reapers. Um didn't everyone was fighting for their lives just a few seconds ago? Ya they were, however nobody seemed to even continue to fight the Reapers. Now if you say everyone just saw that the Reapers are just right , and we are wrong. I fail to see how that this happens. Javik should be dead in synthesis because he would rather die. Hackett should be gathering what troops are left and making a final assult on the Reapers, and our squadmates should be leading the troops. Let's face it when Shepard died Wrex went back to his homeworld to prepare his people for the Reapers arrival. I highly doubt if he is alive, and we cured the Geno, he would consider the Reapers as friends, or live. Then there is EDI's speech. How did EDI go from hating the Reapers/ finds them repulsive, to loving them, and thanks them?

#365
masster blaster

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fr33stylez wrote...

lol, I'm sorry but I can't consider the Reapers a 'race' - they're AI machines constructed every 50K years simply infused (somehow) with blended organic purée. That's all.




This.

I mean who are you calling a race? The REAPER, or the organics inside the Reaper?

Not to mention their leader is a ahole. It claims to protect the organics from the synthetics, only to use synthetics to kill organics. What would have happened, if we didn't go help the Quarians? Was the brat, sorry the Reaper leader going to let the quarians live? To me when we got to the space battle taking place the Quarians were getting their *** kicked. Should the Reaper leader help the organics? Oh wait it's a synthetic right? Anyways why should we give the Reaper leader what it want's? It wanted synthesis right? Why should we pick synthesis. Oh because it says Synthesis by picking it will end the cycle. I am sorry I thought it knew nothing about the crucible, other than it tried to make "sure" in every cycle the crucible data was Destroyed. For good reasons. Moreover is it right to let those harvested cycles be trapped inside a Reaper forever? No right. In Destroy those harvested races can now die in peace.

#366
Cyberfrog81

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masster blaster wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
(snip)


Facepalm.

Why would you facepalm? That was a good post.
Doesn't mean I agree with everything in it.

But acting like a raving lunatic isn't going to make Destroy any more attractive.

#367
masster blaster

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Cyberfrog81 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
(snip)


Facepalm.

Why would you facepalm? That was a good post.
Doesn't mean I agree with everything in it.

But acting like a raving lunatic isn't going to make Destroy any more attractive.



I facepalm to him, or her saying that makes synthesis the best. I forgot to make that clear. Nor does always using Genocid to justify ones sole argument right. What else is wrong with Destroy other than the Geth dying, and EDI? The cycle starting all over? Does the brat really know if the cycle will start over, or is it just using it's own logic? Please tell me why is it that Catalyst knows more about whats going to happen in all the endings, despite the nobody in the galaxy, that includes the Leviathans does not know much about what the crucible does, yet it so happens the "catalyst" does when the crucible docks for a few seconds.

#368
Hadeedak

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Eshaye wrote...

I can't believe people are still arguing the endings..... How long has it been? Can you not just play the endings choices as you have with the other choices? Different Shepards will do different things and it makes not a lick of actual difference.

O.o


Whatever your opinion on the endings, they sure got us talking and thinking about them. A lot.:lol:

#369
MattFini

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I don't often agree with Ieldra, but I do genuinely enjoy his posts. They're well-written and thought provoking.

We all should be able to discuss these endings without resorting to "I'm right and you're an idiot."

#370
rapscallioness

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I was playing thru sum ME2, and I got to the convo w/Mordin abt. the origin of the Collectors. And I could not help but think of Synthesis.

Now I'm not here to take potshots at anyone for w/e they chose for an ending in their game. I really don;t care abt that. I was rather hoping sum BSN folk more familiar w/Synthesis would point out and dissect the differences between Synth, and what the Reapers did to the Prothean when turning them into the Collectors.

The scene gave me pause www.youtube.com/watch

But w/ Collector it started w/indoctrination; then cloning? (why cloning--just to make more?). The clones, I gather, lost intelligence---and other system functions--replaced by tech. The Collectors were a primitive form of Synth. Synth being on a genetic level.

More importantly, this part abt. the result of the modifications:

"disrupts socio-technological balance....advancement due to intelligence overcoming, compensating for limitations...no limitations-no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates....and advancement before culture is ready..disastrous."

What would that mean for the future of Synth? The galaxy as we knew it  has knowledge now that's beyond anything we ever imagined. All connected and what not.  Or am I mistaken? They are "connected" now, right? The knowledge of the Reapers is now the knowledge of the organics of the Milky Way?

Are there similarities there? I'm not well versed w/ Synth lore, but that scene made me wonder abt it.

#371
masster blaster

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Problem is there is no good or bad right.

Destroy we kill the Geth, if we haven't done so already, and EDi, plus all synthetic life. However we free the galaxy from the Reapers and we win. The cycle chooses what path/ future we they can build, and decide whether to continue the cycle, or end it as long as they can.

Control you save everyone. Your former Shepard now controls the Reapers, but the Husk army as well. However Shepard does not free the Reapers, nor does Shepard let the husk die in peace. He, or she instead either uses the Reapers, and the Husk army as a police force, or Dictator Shepard. Then you have to consider if Shepard is deciding how the galaxy should live their lives, well the organics, and synthetics, then your taking away free will from them. Nobody would want to oppose Shepard because Shepard commands the Reaper, and the Husk armys, and any Indoctrinated agent if I might add.


Synthesis. You make everyone the same in DNA. You stop the cycle and everyone is at peace. However nobody in their right mind is theirself. Where is the hate, the sorrow, pain, revenge, bitterness. Was it right to synthesis everyone without considering the fact Shepard synthesis the husk. How do they now feel? Are they not angry at the Reapers for what they did to them? Then there is a point when everything stops. How would civilization advance, if all is already done. There would be no point of living on, and no point in anything. Everything would be the same. If everyone acted the same, then where is the opinion of the one disagreeing with another person? Then there is the catalyst it'self. It programming is done, and it has no purpose. What's it going to do? Then there is the thing about what it said. Synthesis is the FINAl evoultion. That means no more adapting. Moreover we give the Catalyst what it always wanted synthesis. What did the galaxy want? TIM wanted to control the Reapers, yet he was Indoctrinated. Anderson wanted to Destroy the Reapers. Hackett wanted to Destroy the Reapers. Our squadmates that we have wanted to Destroy the Reapers. Yet what about the player. Is it about what you think is right, or what the galaxy thinks is best.


But I am getting ahead of myself. The point of that matter at hand is the endings are not perfect, however did you do what was best for the galaxy, or what you thought was best? You may say I picked Control to save everyone, but what if the galaxy didn't want you to pick control? What if they wanted blood for the horrific crimes the Reapers have done. Do you deni them revenge?

Did you pick synthesis to save everyone from the cycle continuing, or did you pick Synthesis because you think it's the best thing for the galaxy. What if the people did not want to be Synthesised? Would you synthesis them if they said no. Their are many people in the galaxy who would not agree with synthesis. Yes in the ending of synthesis it does not happen, but how can they, if they are rewriten?

If you pick Destroy, what are the synthetics going to say? Will they be okay to die, if it ment seeing the Reapers pay? Well if you listen to the galaxy's cry, then yes. EDI said she would die for Joker, Shepard, and the Normandy crew if it ment this war would end. The Geth said there would be no more compermising with the Reapers. So if they told you this after the catalyst has said his thoughts. Would you still pick Destroy?

Now you may say, well if you say the synthetics are okay with dying, then why can't the galaxy be okay with control, and synthesis? Well let's look at this this way. Hackett told us that TIM is crazy, which he is due to him being controlled in all. Then we see what happens when someone is given to much power. TIM believed in controllling the Reapers so much he had to implant Reaper tech in all of his troops, and the abducted coloniest to use for as his army. TIM even begins to crave for power at the end of ME2. If you blow up the base he is beyoned pissed, however if you don't TIM is very happy. Now Then TIM's lust for power takes are darker turn. He then begins to have his workers turn people into husk for his experiemnts, yet claiming he is doing it to save Humanity alone. Now if you look at Cerberus reputation in the galaxy in ME1, it's not that bad, as it does in ME3. All of this happened due to TIM wanting control. Now If Shepard is going to pick Control, and the galaxy's people tell Shepard that he, or she is going to end up like TIM craving for power, would you not listen to them? Would you believe the catalyst over the people of the galaxy your Shepard is fighting to save?

It may not seem how is this not what the galaxy would say about why Shepard should not pick control, but it is. If you go renegade Shepard, and pick control in your mind you did this to save everyone right, yet what does Shepard think? Let's find out. As the EC epilogue starts in renegade control Shepard sounds like he, or she is craving for power, and will not have anyone get in his/her way. From removing one dicator you replaced another one.

However if you pick Control as Paragon Shepard it's not that bad. Yet now Paragon Shepard has to maintain that once ORGANIC feeling that holded true to his, or her beliefs. Yet how will the galaxy react to this? Again in the players mind you saved everyone, but what does everyone else think? Just a few seconds ago Reapers are killing all the people fighting them in the galaxy, and now the very hero they all thought was going to solve the Reaper problem takes over as the Reaper's leader, only to use the Reapers to enforce the law in the galaxy. Nobody is going to have a problem with that? Doubt full, yet again the slide shows don't show this, yet it should.


Now for synthesis. Gravin Archer. Believed he could save everyone iforganics just combined with synthetics there will be no more wars with the Geth sounds familiar. However he did nost consider how his brother felt. Gravin kept pushing his own brother beyoned the limates, and in the end Shepard tells Gravin that did he even see what he has done to his brother. All in the name of synthesisng to save everyone, yet forgot about how his brother felt. Later in ME3 we can find him, and he tells Shepard that he is sorry for what he did to his brother. Now there is Javik. He's seen his own people been synthesised by the Reapers. True this is not the same thing we see as in synthesis, but it's still synthesis is it not, just not in the version at the end if you pick Synthesis. No way Javik would let this happen after again what happened in his cycle. And if Javik says Synthesis should not happen, if a Hanar heard Javik say this, then what do you think the Hanar will say about Synthesis? I am only pointing out that the Hanar view Javik as a god, and if Javik said that synthesis should not happen, then the Hanar would stand with Javik.

Furthermore we have the Leviathans. Now way would they want everyone to be the same. They would rather have Shepard pick Destroy, and control. Yes I know what your going to say, well in Destroy you give the Leviathans everything. The same could be said in control. Leviathan would still want to control the Reapers, and now that they know Where the catalyst ( Shepard) is at. You don't think the Leviathans would not try anything against Shepard the intellegence now would they? And if the Leviathans Do take Control of Shepard.The Leviathans have control of the Reapers, Husk, and Indoctrinated agents.

But back to synthesis. Leviathans would go against Synthesis. Now take a look at the Korgan. Only reason for them to have Shepard pick synthesis, is if you cured the Geno, however if you cured the Geno, then their support of synthesis goes out the window. Then we have the Geth. Why do they need synthesis when they have their upgrades? Is Legions death not worth more than it already is? Then what about the Quarians, why should they want synthesis, if it gains nothing for them? Sure maybe to help with their immune systems, yet do we see it in synthesis? No.

Then the Batarians come into synthesis. Why should they want to be synthesis, and be like everyone else? Oh and I forgot to mention do you think the Batarians are just going to let a "former Human" lead an Army of Reapers, that can harvest, or kill all the Batarians? Not at all. If fear plays into this, then that's not how a leader should be to his, or her people. Anyways then we have the Rachni queen if you saved her in ME1, and ME3. Does she want synthesis? If she is going to have to live in a world where the very monsters that took her children away from her, and turned them into foot soldiers and had her chained up like a pet. Is going to want Shepard to pick synthesis, or control? She has every right does she not, or no?

Well this about it. As I said I can go on, but this is enough. You can either say I am ranting, or think about this. I really don't care because in the end it's all going to happen again.

#372
rapscallioness

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Lots of good questions Masster Blaster. Good post.

And yeah, I do think that regardless it will all happen again. There will be genetic mutations. Genetic throwbacks. Cuz that's how organics roll. Lol.

There will be glitches in the hard ware cuz that's how tech rolls.

I could see a Synth future where suddenly somewhere, sometime a child is born w/a genetic...throwback..mutation that makes it mostly if not ll organic again. Maybe many born this way after time.

Oh, a caste system. They would be shunned. Viewed as dangerous even, cuz of all the problems before...

Well, I need to go. Laterz, all.

#373
masster blaster

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Thank you call.

#374
clennon8

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

... a bunch of stuff before snipped ...

clennon8 wrote...

I follow.  The Catalyst is whoever makes it to the decision chamber, which happens to be Shepard.  It makes more sense when you put it that way.

I'm going to be more careful about using the moniker "the Catalyst" going forward.  From now on, the child shall be referred to as Starchild or the Intelligence.  I've already edited my OP accordingly.


Our confusion arises because they tacked this 2010 pseudo-philosophical BS ending onto a 1980s - early 1990s style action-adventure sci-fi RPG, and we're going along at 200 mph down the straight, and we're ready for the traditional end game that goes with this type, and even a plot twist of some sort that makes some sense. Then Hudson drops a brick wall in front of us. We have no where to go but slam into it.

Suddenly we have all this symbolism we have to deal with. What the EC failed to clarify, Leviathan did. I tend to get hung up on small details that can change how things get interpreted.

I like how you put that first paragraph.

Leviathan did clarify some things.  Including some things regarding THAT TOPIC THAT SHALT NOT BE DISCUSSED.

#375
clennon8

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Switching gears slightly...

In another thread, jtav wrote that the Destroy ending invoked a Romantic vibe along the lines of "and now we shall return to a humbler and more virtuous state." Does anybody else see this?