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[Bill Casey]

Destroy: Kill them and hostages die
Control: A Clockwork Orange
Synthesis: Straight up surrender to the Reapers
Refuse: They kill everyone

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 février 2013 - 01:33 .

[Alex_Dur4and]

Wow! Amazing read.

You have put my point of vue into better words that I could ever be able to come up with! Bravo!

If the Galactic collectivity reaches synthesis someday, it will be without the influence of the reapers. IMO, the Quarians and Geth are the closest to acheive this state through natural evolution.

Controlling reapers is a blatant lie! There is NO WAY this could be possible... Shepard is no god and the reapers are legions of countless "synthesized" civilizations of trillions and trillions of individuals. I am pretty sure that at least a million of those individuals were as good if not better than Shepard.

Modifié par Alex_Dur4and, 21 février 2013 - 01:37 .

[clennon8]

Auintus wrote...

clennon8 wrote...
Even being generous in considering all perspectives, Starchild has to be considered a mass murderer.  First of all, you're still killing people when you "harvest"  them.  Perhaps something of them is captured in the process, an echo of someone who once lived, but they are nevertheless dead.  Second, many, many organics are not "harvested" at all.  They are flat out killed or turned into some sort of abomination.

Absolutely. Judging by the number of Reapers and the regular cycles, we can imagine that the harvest has been occuring for at least a few million years. Each Reaper requires several million of the "host" species to create the core. Then you count the Reapers' style of war and you have death tolls with more zeros than I care to type. That was never in question.
But if a mass murderer is willing, and capable, to even work towards redeeming themself in the slightest, why not give them that chance? Remember that unlike your average serial killer, the Catalyst has a reason and a (relatively) benevolent goal. The Catalyst makes clear its purpose and explains exactly how Synthesis will achieve that. Following Synthesis, they help rebuild, they share what they remember. Destroy sacrifices an ally to slaughter a surrendering enemy and throw away all that they have, and are willing, to offer. From a pragmatic standpoint, I can't justify Destroy.

Again, I just don't understand why you would allow the most successful brainwasher and mass murderer in galactic history (yes, I'm going to keep calling him that, because that is exactly what he is) to talk you into completing HIS social studies assignment about a theoretical problem, instead of solving YOUR actual problem. 

It's just so, so... disconcerting to hear people repeatedly say that their justification for going along with an idea pitched by the Alpha Indoctrinator is because they listened to his vague, mystical spiel for a couple minutes and decided he was right this time.  After all the other times were bullsh*t.  It's like watching a diehard atheist friend go into a room with a priest, then come out two minutes later and ask you if you've been saved.  It's freaking bizarre.

Modifié par clennon8, 21 février 2013 - 01:49 .

[Auintus]

Bill Casey wrote...

Destroy: Kill them and hostages die
Control: A Clockwork Orange
Synthesis: Straight up surrender
Refuse: They kill everyone

Hardly hostages. They are, or should be, your allies, giving their all to make sure you have time to do what needs to be done. Collateral damage, perhaps, but hardly hostages.
Uh...you'll have to explain that one to me.
How is it a surrender? Each side makes concessions and then peace follows. You do the Catalyst a favor and solve the problem he's been working on for eons and in return the Reapers cease hostilities, help rebuild, and share everything they remember. Peace, and mercy, is a victory of it's own, but that doesn't always mean there is someone on the losing side.
Because you gave up. In standing on the Crucible, one has the Reapers in the palm of their hand. All you need to do is choose. And instead you choose to lose on your terms, rather than win on his. It's quitting.

[Wayning_Star]

Bill Casey wrote...

There is no Reaper surrender...
The Catalyst is the one providing the ultimatum...

I have to disagree Bill, the catalyst didn't author the choices. Nor engineer the crucible to engage them.

It appears,after scretiny that evolution has a lot to do with the ultimation.Making Shep look as if a mere leaf in the wind of change, the universe does that all the time..doesn't it.(forces changes through evolution)

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Destroy: Kill them and hostages die
Control: A Clockwork Orange
Synthesis: Straight up surrender
Refuse: They kill everyone

Hardly hostages. They are, or should be, your allies, giving their all to make sure you have time to do what needs to be done. Collateral damage, perhaps, but hardly hostages.
Uh...you'll have to explain that one to me.
How is it a surrender? Each side makes concessions and then peace follows. You do the Catalyst a favor and solve the problem he's been working on for eons and in return the Reapers cease hostilities, help rebuild, and share everything they remember. Peace, and mercy, is a victory of it's own, but that doesn't always mean there is someone on the losing side.
Because you gave up. In standing on the Crucible, one has the Reapers in the palm of their hand. All you need to do is choose. And instead you choose to lose on your terms, rather than win on his. It's quitting.

I know I'm harping, but until we can fully understand the crucible construction engineers and the authors of the choices menu, we're just guessing at the actual potential of the catalyst other than being an enabler.

[Auintus]

clennon8 wrote...
Again, I just don't understand why you would allow the most successful brainwasher and mass murderer in galactic history (yes, I'm going to keep calling him that, because that is exactly what he is) to talk you into completing HIS social studies assignment about a theoretical problem, instead of solving YOUR actual problem. 

It's just so, so... disconcerting to hear people repeatedly say that their justification for going along with an idea pitched by the Alpha Indoctrinator is because they listened to his vague, mystical spiel for a couple minutes and decided he was right.  It's like watching a diehard atheist friend go into a room with a priest, then come out two minutes later a born again Christian.  It's freaking bizarre.

It does solve my problem. It stops the Reapers. And my Shepard is the only one who dies for it.

If I had reason to believe this priest was old enough to have seen the begining of the world, I'd convert in a heartbeat. Remember that the Catalyst has been around for ages, so he probably knows what he's talking about. He willingly shows you your choices, so he's not really even your enemy by this point. The fact that the Reapers could, as shown in Refuse, continue the cycle so long as the Crucible is dealt with gives the Catalyst plenty of reason to stall or ignore Shepard, should he choose to. He wants the cycles over with as much as you do.

[Bill Casey]

You make the choice.

That's what an ultimatum is...
If the Reapers were surrendering, you would be offering the Reapers a choice and they would accept it...

Say I pointed my gun at the tube and told them, "go back to Darkspace and let this cycle self determinate or I will shoot this tube." And they stopped harvesting us and ****ed off to Darkspace, that would be like a surrender...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 février 2013 - 01:49 .

[Auintus]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I know I'm harping, but until we can fully understand the crucible construction engineers and the authors of the choices menu, we're just guessing at the actual potential of the catalyst other than being an enabler.

Can you clarify that for me?
What is and is not the Catalyst exactly?

[o Ventus]

@Auintus

In a Clockwork Orange (both the novel and film, I highly recommend the film if you procure the means to see it), the main character Alex is a believer in "ultraviolence" (basically hedonism taken to the utmost extreme). Effectively a socio-psychopath. He is arrested and "cured" of his "condition" via brainwashing, both through drugs and what is effectively torture. The novel and film have differing outcomes on how it works out.

The comparison is rough, but the brainwashing done to Alex was in the name of a "greater good" (you'll understand why I put everything in quotations if you know the material), like how controlling the Reapers is done in the name of a greater good.

[Auintus]

Bill Casey wrote...

That's what an ultimatum is...
If the Reapers were surrendering, you would be offering the Reapers a choice and they would accept it...

Say I pointed my gun at the tube and told them, "go back to Darkspace and let this cycle self determinate or I will shoot this tube." And they ****ed off to Darkspace, that would be like a surrender...

But that's not an option. The Reapers are driven by programing that is literally older than dirt. They can't just back away from their mission unless: Their mission is accomplished(Synth), they have a new programing(Control), they are no longer functional(Destroy). They are incapable of acting otherwise.

[Bill Casey]

Auintus wrote...

Because you gave up. In standing on the Crucible, one has the Reapers in the palm of their hand. All you need to do is choose. And instead you choose to lose on your terms, rather than win on his. It's quitting.

Refuse is winning...
But I would rather lose and save as much of the universe as I can...
And I hate myself for it...

The few times I refused are the only times I've truly felt like I wasn't a complete monster...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 février 2013 - 01:53 .

[Auintus]

o Ventus wrote...

@Auintus

In a Clockwork Orange (both the novel and film, I highly recommend the film if you procure the means to see it), the main character Alex is a believer in "ultraviolence" (basically hedonism taken to the utmost extreme). Effectively a socio-psychopath. He is arrested and "cured" of his "condition" via brainwashing, both through drugs and what is effectively torture. The novel and film have differing outcomes on how it works out.

The comparison is rough, but the brainwashing done to Alex was in the name of a "greater good" (you'll understand why I put everything in quotations if you know the material), like how controlling the Reapers is done in the name of a greater good.

Ah. Thank ye, kindly.

[Read Tvtropes] Fascinating. I'll see if I can dig it up somewhere.

Modifié par Auintus, 21 février 2013 - 02:01 .

[goose2989]

I've been seeing this thread at the top of the forum for almost two weeks now, and I finally decided to read it tonight. I'm glad I finally did. Great job, OP.

[Bill Casey]

They should have just locked Alex up or executed him...
What they did to him just wasn't right...

[clennon8]

Auintus wrote...

clennon8 wrote...
Again, I just don't understand why you would allow the most successful brainwasher and mass murderer in galactic history (yes, I'm going to keep calling him that, because that is exactly what he is) to talk you into completing HIS social studies assignment about a theoretical problem, instead of solving YOUR actual problem. 

It's just so, so... disconcerting to hear people repeatedly say that their justification for going along with an idea pitched by the Alpha Indoctrinator is because they listened to his vague, mystical spiel for a couple minutes and decided he was right.  It's like watching a diehard atheist friend go into a room with a priest, then come out two minutes later a born again Christian.  It's freaking bizarre.

It does solve my problem. It stops the Reapers. And my Shepard is the only one who dies for it.

If I had reason to believe this priest was old enough to have seen the begining of the world, I'd convert in a heartbeat. Remember that the Catalyst has been around for ages, so he probably knows what he's talking about. He willingly shows you your choices, so he's not really even your enemy by this point. The fact that the Reapers could, as shown in Refuse, continue the cycle so long as the Crucible is dealt with gives the Catalyst plenty of reason to stall or ignore Shepard, should he choose to. He wants the cycles over with as much as you do.

This is something like religion.  You have substituted faith for logic.

[Bill Casey]

Auintus wrote...

Hardly hostages. They are, or should be, your allies, giving their all to make sure you have time to do what needs to be done. Collateral damage, perhaps, but hardly hostages.

The Catalyst is using them as hostages...

[o Ventus]

Auintus wrote...

Ah, thank ye, kindly.

Fun Fact:

Assuming you've played Overlord, the reveal of David Archer is similar to that of Alex during his rehabilitation. In fact, David's eyes being held open by mechanical arms is a direct reference to the Ludovico Technique used on Alex.

[Auintus]

Bill Casey wrote...

They should have just locked Alex up or executed him...
What they did to him just wasn't right...

Won't argue with that. Having recently played Bioshock, "A man chooses. A slave obeys" is fitting in here quite well.
If you force someone to be good, it doesn't count.

[Auintus]

clennon8 wrote...
This is something like religion.  You have substituted faith for logic.

Logic is infinitely superior to faith. Religion is an unwavering belief in something despite any evidence to the contrary. Logic is accepting all evidence and considering it, whether to be incorperated or deemed inconsequential.

[Auintus]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Catalyst is using them as hostages...

How so? It's not like it can make the Crucible target only Reapers. It just points out the flaw in the Crucible and notifies you of the repercussions. The "hostages" scenario is the fault of the Crucible. The Catalyst cannot rightly be held accountable.

[Auintus]

o Ventus wrote...

Fun Fact:

Assuming you've played Overlord, the reveal of David Archer is similar to that of Alex during his rehabilitation. In fact, David's eyes being held open by mechanical arms is a direct reference to the Ludovico Technique used on Alex.

I thought you said "fun."

[Bill Casey]

Auintus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The Catalyst is using them as hostages...

How so? It's not like it can make the Crucible target only Reapers. It just points out the flaw in the Crucible and notifies you of the repercussions. The "hostages" scenario is the fault of the Crucible. The Catalyst cannot rightly be held accountable.

The catalyst doesn't need the Crucible to destroy the reapers...

[Bill Casey]

Auintus wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

They should have just locked Alex up or executed him...
What they did to him just wasn't right...

Won't argue with that. Having recently played Bioshock, "A man chooses. A slave obeys" is fitting in here quite well.
If you force someone to be good, it doesn't count.

Which eliminates Control and Synthesis as choices...

[Wayning_Star]

Auintus wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I know I'm harping, but until we can fully understand the crucible construction engineers and the authors of the choices menu, we're just guessing at the actual potential of the catalyst other than being an enabler.

Can you clarify that for me?
What is and is not the Catalyst exactly?

I'd guess it's the prime mover in the MEU. It holds the keys to the universe. Shep must deal with it to gain access to further details.

but, being is that the crucible alters it to accept the ideas provided by the choices menu, of which we don't ever know who authored those, makes the catalyst merely another tool of someone, as it's 'controlled' by the crucible and choices menu. It even admits to that as having 'other options', and proclaiming that its current solution doesn't work any more. How did it come to that conclusion, just after the crucible was attatched? Who designed that function and the following 'NEW" options?

One might even call that a gaping plot hole..but I'm loath to pronounce it that way..rather look at it as another mystery..gulp!