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[CosmicGnosis]

You know, total galactic extinction is somewhat similar to Synthesis, in that all life is unfairly affected...

[DeinonSlayer]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Cosmic, do you save Aralakh Company (dozens of lives) or the Rachni Queen (one life)? If so, on what grounds?

I save the rachni queen because I want to give her species a chance at rebirth. The krogan will be fine; I cure the genophage. If the queen dies, then the hope of rachni rebirth is lost.

Where do you draw the line, though? If species A has a population of two billion, and species B has a population of 300,000, would you sacrifice a million of species A to save species B from extinction?

How many Krogan is the Rachni Queen worth? What I'm saying is, Shepard has already made choices like what Destroy asks. Sacrifice some to save the many. It goes back to the example I posted of Adam Jensen. The target is immaterial.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Auld Wulf,

You really need to read this:

www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

[CosmicGnosis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Because new life would show up eventually, and that life would be free from the Reapers' oppression. "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of a war, then the fight was worth it."

So you're saying submission is preferable to extinction?

Maybe. What if a Reaper war is going on right now? All around us, but we don't know it because we are primitive humans. Then the Crucible is deployed and your extreme version of Destroy is chosen. Well, we just died. That's it. No more humans. Never again. Not on a billion worlds. We were annihilated in a war that had nothing to do with us. The Reaper overlords are far too abstract and distant at this stage of our development. Yet, one individual decided that the Reapers must die, even if all the unknown primitive species of the galaxy were to go down with them.

That choice almost seems evil to me. Not much better than the popular interpretation of Synthesis.

[Wayning_Star]

well, that didn't go so bad OP,everyone is coming to grips with the synthesis canon ending an all..

Hope the DLC is as good!!

[CosmicGnosis]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Cosmic, do you save Aralakh Company (dozens of lives) or the Rachni Queen (one life)? If so, on what grounds?

I save the rachni queen because I want to give her species a chance at rebirth. The krogan will be fine; I cure the genophage. If the queen dies, then the hope of rachni rebirth is lost.

Where do you draw the line, though? If species A has a population of two billion, and species B has a population of 300,000, would you sacrifice a million of species A to save species B from extinction?

How many Krogan is the Rachni Queen worth? What I'm saying is, Shepard has already made choices like what Destroy asks. Sacrifice some to save the many. It goes back to the example I posted of Adam Jensen. The target is immaterial.

I think that I probably would attempt to prevent the extinction of a species, even if that meant that an incredible number of people from another species would be sacrificed. It would suck. That's why Rannoch is awful without the peace option.

[clennon8]

To be fair, once we start talking about sacrificing all life in the galaxy to get rid of the Reapers, Refuse suddenly becomes a more attractive option. But that would require something like prescience on Shepard's part.

[DeinonSlayer]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Cosmic, do you save Aralakh Company (dozens of lives) or the Rachni Queen (one life)? If so, on what grounds?

I save the rachni queen because I want to give her species a chance at rebirth. The krogan will be fine; I cure the genophage. If the queen dies, then the hope of rachni rebirth is lost.

Where do you draw the line, though? If species A has a population of two billion, and species B has a population of 300,000, would you sacrifice a million of species A to save species B from extinction?

How many Krogan is the Rachni Queen worth? What I'm saying is, Shepard has already made choices like what Destroy asks. Sacrifice some to save the many. It goes back to the example I posted of Adam Jensen. The target is immaterial.

I think that I probably would attempt to prevent the extinction of a species, even if that meant that an incredible number of people from another species would be sacrificed. It would suck. That's why Rannoch is awful without the peace option.

I tend to lean more towards "save more lives," unless we're talking about a VIP whose rescue will save still more lives (like Koris). Still, it does, indeed suck. Such is the burden of command.

That said, for reasons I won't go into here, Rannoch is... remarkably easy for me to deal with, in the event that I can't make peace. For the record, I'd save the queen over Aralakh Company if it weren't for her extended exposure to Reaper tech. Metagaming aside, indoctrination is the pink elephant in the room which is never addressed.

As I've said in the past, if I thought the Virtual Aliens were killed in Destroy, it would trip past my "acceptable casualties" threshold (which is admittedly amorphous - I'm not devaluing synthetic life; my issue is with the Geth in particular, not synthetics in general). However, they don't have Reaper tech in them, and EDI's dialogue suggests that either their existence was reconned/forgotten, or their Mindship was already destroyed by the Reapers before the events of Priority: Rannoch. A couple billion more reasons the Reapers deserve to die (if I remember, you disagree there - we'll have to agree to leave it alone because I don't see us convincing each other on that particular point).

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 12 février 2013 - 01:35 .

[BleedingUranium]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Because new life would show up eventually, and that life would be free from the Reapers' oppression. "If just one survivor is left standing at the end of a war, then the fight was worth it."

So you're saying submission is preferable to extinction?

Maybe. What if a Reaper war is going on right now? All around us, but we don't know it because we are primitive humans. Then the Crucible is deployed and your extreme version of Destroy is chosen. Well, we just died. That's it. No more humans. Never again. Not on a billion worlds. We were annihilated in a war that had nothing to do with us. The Reaper overlords are far too abstract and distant at this stage of our development. Yet, one individual decided that the Reapers must die, even if all the unknown primitive species of the galaxy were to go down with them.

That choice almost seems evil to me. Not much better than the popular interpretation of Synthesis.

That's called a sacrifice. Just like the hostages in BDTS.

[CosmicGnosis]

clennon8 wrote...

To be fair, once we start talking about sacrificing all life in the galaxy to get rid of the Reapers, Refuse suddenly becomes a more attractive option. But that would require something like prescience on Shepard's part.

Refuse vs. Low-EMS Destroy

I choose Refuse. More lives are saved. Even though Shepard can't know that, he can hope that a future cycle will be victorious. And it turns that this is exactly what happens.

[BleedingUranium]

clennon8 wrote...

To be fair, once we start talking about sacrificing all life in the galaxy to get rid of the Reapers, Refuse suddenly becomes a more attractive option. But that would require something like prescience on Shepard's part.

Right, I probably shouldn't have brought it up, because it's totally implausible. The key point is there's no sacrifice too great if it means the Reapers die.

[CosmicGnosis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

To be fair, once we start talking about sacrificing all life in the galaxy to get rid of the Reapers, Refuse suddenly becomes a more attractive option. But that would require something like prescience on Shepard's part.

Right, I probably shouldn't have brought it up, because it's totally implausible. The key point is there's no sacrifice too great if it means the Reapers die.

If we could blow up the entire universe, that would kill the Reapers. Kind of makes you wonder what it was all for, though...

[BleedingUranium]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

To be fair, once we start talking about sacrificing all life in the galaxy to get rid of the Reapers, Refuse suddenly becomes a more attractive option. But that would require something like prescience on Shepard's part.

Right, I probably shouldn't have brought it up, because it's totally implausible. The key point is there's no sacrifice too great if it means the Reapers die.

If we could blow up the entire universe, that would kill the Reapers. Kind of makes you wonder what it was all for, though...

Really? In the very next reply?

[Wayning_Star]

actually,it's the bredth and scope of the problem, simple things like war are rendered inert. The phrase "there is no war, only the harvest" is the clue to it all. Unless new data is awarded to Shep, pre decision, the only actual MEU science capable of actually ending the reaper threat is the mega choice of synthesis. Sure we can skimp on it and blast around all cocky and claim the witch is melting, but everyone knows that's not the case, she's just sleeping it off..and will wake up and the cycle will continue.

The MEU trap was laid and those who laid it are the only ones who can unspring it..

I was hoping that the next uber DLC would expose them..but it appears it won't...

Oh well, you'll have that.. still a nice trip down a rabbid black hole regardless.

[CosmicGnosis]

BleedingUranium wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

To be fair, once we start talking about sacrificing all life in the galaxy to get rid of the Reapers, Refuse suddenly becomes a more attractive option. But that would require something like prescience on Shepard's part.

Right, I probably shouldn't have brought it up, because it's totally implausible. The key point is there's no sacrifice too great if it means the Reapers die.

If we could blow up the entire universe, that would kill the Reapers. Kind of makes you wonder what it was all for, though...

Really? In the very next reply?

Just saying that I disagree with your point.

[TheCrazyHobo]

Wayning_Star wrote...

well, that didn't go so bad OP,everyone is coming to grips with the synthesis canon ending an all..

Hope the DLC is as good!!

See, this is the crap that really destroys your credibility.  

God I wish you were like Ieldra. 

[Kabooooom]

Eterna5 wrote...

Prove it.

Prove WHAT? This thread was the OP's opinion on why he doesn't choose synthesis because he believes the Catalyst is untrustworthy. Frankly, I agree. Do you trust the Catalyst without question? Even the people that choose synthesis usually do so because they rationalize that the Catalyst has no reason to lie, but rationalizing that someone is telling you the truth and trusting them are two different things. 

To reiterate - post was OP's opinion. It is shared by many. Do you want him to prove his opinion?

[Wayning_Star]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

well, that didn't go so bad OP,everyone is coming to grips with the synthesis canon ending an all..

Hope the DLC is as good!!

See, this is the crap that really destroys your credibility.  

God I wish you were like Ieldra. 

I'm over trying to explain stuff that has no way/facts that others can or will accept because they  don't want to accept them.

ledra has points, but frustrated with assumptions of godhead,what with ascention an all. Synthesis is just another way of actually removing the reapers, not a new and improved way of life, no matter how it's prognosed.

We tweek nature to get the synthetics on board with discovery of the MEU with perks of those harvested society value added heritage.

Besides, fans are coming to grip with synthesis as canon. Even if they don't like it, they still have to accept it as the only actual endgame for the MEU. The others are just replays..

I don't profess that synthesis is "right". I just confess it's the correct 'win' scenerio. i.e. face the music, hand writing on the wall, the gig is up..that stuff.

why should the MEU attempt recovery from a bombed out husk, when it's not necessary?

[BleedingUranium]

Star, please try harder to make sense.

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Star, please try harder to make sense.

see how denial works.. it's just like believing a lying cheating catalyst will actually destroy it's reaperships for some critically wounded organic with Grandiose delusions ..lol

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Star, please try harder to make sense.

see how denial works.. it's just like believing a lying cheating catalyst will actually destroy it's reaperships for some critically wounded organic with Grandiose delusions ..lol

Good thing I don't believe that, then.

[Wayning_Star]

Shep would have to be super human to overcome the needs based idea of worring about 'rights' as stumbling around the catalyst lair listening to the dirge of space battles just out side. Give a human the power and they'll use it. It's hereditary, in their genes..evolutionary.. Made In Nature.

It's what they do.

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Shep would have to be super human to overcome the needs based idea of worring about 'rights' as stumbling around the catalyst lair listening to the dirge of space battles just out side. Give a human the power and they'll use it. It's hereditary, in their genes..evolutionary.. Made In Nature.

It's what they do.

You're trying to say that it's impossible for Shepard to choose Destroy, even though he can choose Destroy, and even though it's by far the most popular ending (meaning most Shepards did pick it)?

That's like trying to argue Liara isn't a squadmate in ME3.

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Star, please try harder to make sense.

see how denial works.. it's just like believing a lying cheating catalyst will actually destroy it's reaperships for some critically wounded organic with Grandiose delusions ..lol

Good thing I don't believe that, then.

and...

(I know theres more to this..but?)

[fr33stylez]

iakus wrote...

I oppose Synthesis in part because the source is untrustworthy. Yeah the explanation is laughable, but this is the series that gave us the Lazarus Project, so space magic doesn't automatically invalidate the veracity of the claim.

But the biggest part is that it's forced. Not just on Earth, or the Fleet, but to the entire galaxy. Every living thing, everything will will live in the future.The Catalyst claims it can't be forced, but the ending and the epilogue show that isn't so. While I'm sure some would embrace transhumanism (or transkroganism, transturianism, etc) others would be less receptive, and many I'm sure would be horrified at having it forced on them.

Then there's the races that didn't participate in the war. What would the yahg think of what's happeneing? Or other prespaceflight races? They have it forced on them without even understanding what happened.

Another issue is...why am I choosing Synthesis again? 

The Catalyst is literally telling you ' I'll stop attacking the galaxy, huskfying your families and liquifying your friends...IF you choose this".

Because God knows I don't give a crap about the Catalyst's Problem it claims exists (but doesn't present any evidence for, and that the narrative contradicts).