Aller au contenu

Photo

Transhumanism is good, but Synthesis is a trick. Why Destroyers are not luddites.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
587 réponses à ce sujet

#151
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

mvaning wrote...

The banter is good.  :)  

I consider trans-humanism as more of a macro involvement of cybernetics.    As an example -- something like a cybernetic arm.   My ear-drum busted when I was 11 and I have a prosthetic eardrum (sounds crazy I know).      I don't see any of that stuff to change who you are as a human being. 

The catalyst describes Synthesis as a "new DNA" which to me sounds like a fundamental change in what the human-being is.


Transhumanism must affect the brain, that's the key point. Your prosthetic eardrum or someone's prosthetic limb, or a pacemaker, doesn't make someone transhuman.

#152
mvaning

mvaning
  • Members
  • 246 messages

BleedingUranium wrote...

Transhumanism must affect the brain, that's the key point. Your prosthetic eardrum or someone's prosthetic limb, or a pacemaker, doesn't make someone transhuman.



I am not a Transhuman, nor do I consider anyone with a prosthetic limb to be transhuman.     However, Transhumanism doesn't require a brain implant.    Transhumanism is an ideology, not the physical state of a person.

#153
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

mvaning wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Transhumanism must affect the brain, that's the key point. Your prosthetic eardrum or someone's prosthetic limb, or a pacemaker, doesn't make someone transhuman.



I am not a Transhuman, nor do I consider anyone with a prosthetic limb to be transhuman.     However, Transhumanism doesn't require a brain implant.    Transhumanism is an ideology, not the physical state of a person.


No, that's just talking about people who support it.

A Transhumanist is a person that supports Transhumanism. A Transhuman is a person who's had part of their brain replaced or augmented by synthetic parts.

#154
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 812 messages

DeinonSlayer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think Bioware's initial take on the Destroy ending where "technology = evil" and the mass relays were destroyed along with technology as well, and put everything in a 10,000 year galactic dark age went way too far. Yet I chose it over Synthesis because I do not trust its source -- a genocidal AI that has been carrying out mass murder for over a billion years and whose death count is up in the quadrillions. It does make one wonder. And it is done without consent. I also reject Control for the same reasons you did.

I also reject Bioware's assertion that Synthesis is inevitable. It may be, but to whom will it be inevitable? Will it be made available to everyone who wants it? OR will it be made available only to those who can afford it? And how will it be used? Will it be used as a means to Control the masses? OR will it be used as a way for peoples to connect with one another in ways never before possible?

I am not afraid of technology. Were it not for technology, I would not be able to create music the way I do. Were it not for technology people would never hear my songs. I do not have the money to hire the quality musicians I want, and book studio time I need, and pay recording engineers. With this technology I can do all this myself now, and produce quality that is getting close to majors.

I am simply wary of how technology gets abused. I would love for there to be advancements in say cochlear implants to the point where they can detect pitch and sound level like a human cochlea. That way I could hear in my right ear again. I would love for there to be cybernetic implants available to help people with early onset alzheimers so that they could remember things and live normal lives. Or even enhancements. I am not afraid of these things.

The reality is that I don't see the enhancement side being a level playing field aspect. That is going to be reserved for the few who can afford it. It is just our nature.

What should we do? When the technology becomes available make sure no one gets left behind, but do not force it on people.

I'm having a vision here:

Image IPB

"Do I trust Mankind to save itself? That's what Eliza was asking. The truth is, I don't know. After everything I've seen, all the fighting, and the chaos around me. I only know what I want to believe: somehow, human decency will triumph. These past few months, I faced many life-threatening situations. I could have given up many times, but my need to know the truth, to uncover the secrets that others were hiding, and to survive, forced me to keep on going. Most of the time, I tried to keep my values in mind, knowing my actions did not have to harm others. I held on to my humanity, resisting the urge to abuse power or resources in order to meet my goals. And in the end, I got the job done. But does this mean I have the right to choose for everyone? No. Because it isn't up to me. It isn't up to Darrow, Sarif, or Taggart, either. Ordinary men and women will have to decide together what course mankind should take. The kind of people who, time and time again, have picked and chosen the future in highly practical ways - slowing change when it's negative, speeding it up when it's good. Can they do it again? I don't know. But I do know I'm not about to let anyone in this station, including myself, stand in their way."


I think you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately the choice in the Mass Effect Universe is:

"You're asking me to change everything, everyone. I can't make that decision, and I won't. I'm going to end this war on my terms. I fight for freedom. Mine and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

And we leave it for the next cycle. :unsure: But there is MEHEM.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 12 février 2013 - 05:05 .


#155
Indy_S

Indy_S
  • Members
  • 2 092 messages
That doesn't refute his claim at all.

#156
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages
"I'll die knowing that I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free."

That always makes me laugh.

#157
mvaning

mvaning
  • Members
  • 246 messages

BleedingUranium wrote...

No, that's just talking about people who support it.

A Transhumanist is a person that supports Transhumanism. A Transhuman is a person who's had part of their brain replaced or augmented by synthetic parts.



Currently, in real life, there is no such technology in existance that can replace parts of your brain and function better than your brain can naturally.   If you have some sort of accident and part of your brain is damaged, you might be able to get something(?) but it will not be as good as your natural organic brain.

To follow up on that, there is no prosthetic technology that can replace any of your limbs and work better than what you naturally have.   I have 20% hearing  loss with my plastic ear drum.  

The ideology behind Transhumanism is that technology will eventually be available to enhance human life.   The exact definition on wikipedia is

"Transhumanism, abbreviated as H+ or h+, is an international intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally transforming the human condition by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities. "


So no, Transhumanism is definately a ideology because currently, there is no such thing as a "Transhuman" as it is described in the MEU.  


In the MEU, a "Transhuman" can actually exist.    In real life though, transhumanism is an ideology, not the description of the physical state of a living person. 

Modifié par mvaning, 12 février 2013 - 05:25 .


#158
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages
Umm, like I said, it's the ideology of what? That's right, of making yourself a transhuman. I literally just said this: a Transhumanist is someone who supports Transhumanism. A Transhuman is what someone becomes. The fact that we don't have any yet doesn't mean anything.

But that's all irrelevant because EDI makes it clear that transhumans are called that because they've have their brains altered by tech. That's what it is in the MEU.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 12 février 2013 - 05:30 .


#159
mvaning

mvaning
  • Members
  • 246 messages
Okay, there's some mis-understanding here.   Your quote is


BleedingUranium wrote...

Transhumanism must affect the brain, that's the key point. Your prosthetic eardrum or someone's prosthetic limb, or a pacemaker, doesn't make someone transhuman.



My point is, transhumanism is an ideology but that ideology is not restricted to the brain.    It is meant to enhance all parts of the body but not necessarily by only using brain implants.    The ideology does not discriminate. 

#160
BleedingUranium

BleedingUranium
  • Members
  • 6 118 messages

mvaning wrote...

Okay, there's some mis-understanding here.   Your quote is


BleedingUranium wrote...

Transhumanism must affect the brain, that's the key point. Your prosthetic eardrum or someone's prosthetic limb, or a pacemaker, doesn't make someone transhuman.



My point is, transhumanism is an ideology but that ideology is not restricted to the brain.    It is meant to enhance all parts of the body but not necessarily by only using brain implants.    The ideology does not discriminate. 


OH okay, sorry. Yes, that makes sense. :)

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 12 février 2013 - 05:45 .


#161
humes spork

humes spork
  • Members
  • 3 338 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think Bioware's initial take on the Destroy ending where "technology = evil" and the mass relays were destroyed along with technology as well, and put everything in a 10,000 year galactic dark age went way too far.

Simply put, that's not a reasonable inference that can be drawn from the initial destroy ending. None of the exposition, imagery, nor symbolism of the initial destroy ending implied an atechnological future, nor an impending technological dark age.

Plus, you need to be more careful drawing distinction between author and character. I'm currently running a Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade game that prominently features a non-player character that believes creation is cyclical, and for that reason destruction and death are not to be feared or avoided but rather embraced as a natural part of existence. I'm portraying that through her perspective as the single core, greatest and most positive truth of existence, something for which she's quite evangelical. Does that mean I'm a nihilist?

When I run Mage: the Ascension, I portray the Virtual Adepts as true believers in their cause, who view the technological singularity (in Kurtzweil terms, not MEU terms, just so everyone's on the same page here) as the next true step in human advancement and something for which to ever strive. [Yeah, if anyone here also plays M:tA I'm painting with broad, quick strokes to make the point accessible to people who don't play M:tA; I'm disincinlined to argue semantics about the Virtual Adepts here.] Does that mean I'm a transhumanist?

No, I'm writing and portraying characters according to how they see the universe.

Modifié par humes spork, 12 février 2013 - 05:55 .


#162
sH0tgUn jUliA

sH0tgUn jUliA
  • Members
  • 16 812 messages

humes spork wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I think Bioware's initial take on the Destroy ending where "technology = evil" and the mass relays were destroyed along with technology as well, and put everything in a 10,000 year galactic dark age went way too far.

Simply put, that's not a reasonable inference that can be drawn from the initial destroy ending. None of the exposition, imagery, nor symbolism of the initial destroy ending implied an atechnological future, nor an impending technological dark age.

Plus, you need to be more careful drawing distinction between author and character. I'm currently running a Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade game that prominently features a non-player character that believes creation is cyclical, and for that reason destruction and death are not to be feared or avoided but rather embraced as a natural part of existence. I'm portraying that through her perspective as the single core, greatest and most positive truth of existence, something for which she's quite evangelical. Does that mean I'm a nihilist?

When I run Mage: the Ascension, I portray the Virtual Adepts as true believers in their cause, who view the technological singularity (in Kurtzweil terms, not MEU terms, just so everyone's on the same page here) as the next true step in human advancement and something for which to ever strive. [Yeah, if anyone here also plays M:tA I'm painting with broad, quick strokes to make the point accessible to people who don't play M:tA; I'm disincinlined to argue semantics about the Virtual Adepts here.] Does that mean I'm a transhumanist?

No, I'm writing and portraying characters according to how they see the universe.


I was also making inferences from interviews with Mac Walters done prior to release, and from leaked script notes. When asked about post ending DLC, Mac replied that there would be none because "It's a wasteland." The mass relays were destroyed in all of the endings. And in the destroy ending technology on which you depend would be destroyed. The wasteland thing would lead one to believe that tech would return to somewhere around 1890s level. Hopefully there were drawings and stuff that could get them to the 21st century that were not stored on computer.

This was soon retconned in April when it was mentioned the relays were only damaged and that the ships still had FTL, but for the first month it was the 10,000 year dark age and a wasteland, and everyone starving. And this in desperation led to this video being made, which allowed me to sleep @ 3:20 am when I finished the game on 3/22/12.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG4EyfXOTJ4

#163
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages
I'm open to transhumanism as well, but I too chose destroy. Synthesis seemed way too sketchy and imposing.

#164
humes spork

humes spork
  • Members
  • 3 338 messages

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I was also making inferences from interviews with Mac Walters done prior to release, and from leaked script notes. When asked about post ending DLC, Mac replied that there would be none because "It's a wasteland." The mass relays were destroyed in all of the endings. And in the destroy ending technology on which you depend would be destroyed. The wasteland thing would lead one to believe that tech would return to somewhere around 1890s level. Hopefully there were drawings and stuff that could get them to the 21st century that were not stored on computer.

None of that still necessarily implies organic species are knocked down to pre-technological, or pre-industrial, levels, however. You're inferring this, as something that was deliberately left open for speculation on the part of the developers, and using sources of questionable canonicity to do it.

Moreover, you're using those sources as a matter of perspective. To say something is a wasteland is not necessarily a judgment of its technological level, before or after. Europe and much of the Pacific rim was a wasteland after World War II; were they reduced to pre-industrial cultures?

The PAX panel and Twitter commentaries were not a retcon, by the way. In fact, BW's commentary on the subject was specifically that they did not intend audiences to infer the destroy ending as a return to pre-technological and pre-industrial levels, and that despite synthetic life being destroyed and the relays destroyed organic species are not entering a technological "dark age" for any period of time.

Modifié par humes spork, 12 février 2013 - 07:12 .


#165
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 188 messages

humes spork wrote...
None of that still necessarily implies organic species are knocked down to pre-technological, or pre-industrial, levels, however. You're inferring this, as something that was deliberately left open for speculation on the part of the developers, and using sources of questionable canonicity to do it.

Moreover, you're using those sources as a matter of perspective. To say something is a wasteland is not necessarily a judgment of its technological level, before or after. Europe and much of the Pacific rim was a wasteland after World War II; were they reduced to pre-industrial cultures?

The PAX panel and Twitter commentaries were not a retcon, by the way. In fact, BW's commentary on the subject was specifically that they did not intend audiences to infer the destroy ending as a return to pre-technological and pre-industrial levels, and that despite synthetic life being destroyed and the relays destroyed organic species are not entering a technological "dark age" for any period of time.

Yes, nothing that is shown *necessarily* implies that. But storytelling is always an act of communication. You should be aware of this, having drawn parallels with the Divine Comedy I'm sure would occur only to a very small minority. For you, the parallels are suggestive, for me, they aren't. If, for many people, the images presented to us are heavily suggestive of a technological dark age, and the writers didn't intend them to suggest that, then the failing is at least in part a failing of the writers. They failed to communicate their intent to the players. 

A work of art must stand on its own. It must be comprehensible without additional input from its creators, or it isn't finished as it is. If it wasn't intended that the imagery suggests a technology dark age, then the EC is a necessary correction, the real end the writers did not manage to convey in the original - with the exception of Destroy, I might add, which I think *was* intended to irrevocably destroy all Reaper technology including the relays as well as synthetics, but compromised in the EC to accommodate the players.

(I'll get to the transhumanism next.)

#166
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 188 messages
I respect the OP's stance as reasonable. I have nothing to criticize in avoiding Synthesis from that point of view (though I think the interpretation of Control is one-sided). I do not, however, respect it as authoritative, and this is why:

About storytelling experience, Synthesis and the Reapers:
My attitude towards the Reapers, which is also the one I projected onto my main Shepard, has always since ME1 been ruled by curiosity rather than enmity. That I had to fight them has always been an unfortunate necessity, driven by the very regrettable fact that they were enemies bent on the destruction of my civilization. So if I do not automatically reject everything connected to them, that attitude, I can say with conviction, is at least genuine. If you had asked my Shepard after Virmire, he would've said the ideal solution to the Reaper problem was "end the enmity", not "end the Reapers". And if you had presented me with this situation as a theoretical exercise, I would've said the same. My stance is also consistent with the personal ideology I've had for a very long time, which I also projected into my Shepard. So no, there was no "the Reapers messing with Shepard's head", and even less "Bioware's writing messing with my head". Not in my games. In fact, I've always seen the over-the-top horror and abomination aesthetic as the attempt to mess with my head and condition me into a mindset where I would summarily and mindlessly reject anything remotely connected to the Reapers without further reflection. I fought that "indoctrination" from the very start. From a storytelling perspective, I see Synthesis as the attempt to accommodate a mindset like mine. It was clumsily done to say the least, and came perilously close to betraying the spirit of what it set out to accommodate, but I can work with it. If the outcome is good, what does it matter if it was the Reapers' preference?

Also, for me it was always clear the Synthesis was something very different from the crude hybridization we see in the Reaper minions. It wouldn't need Shepard and the Crucible otherwise. For me, its main problem was always "Can I make this choice for the whole galaxy?", while in any other respect I've always seen Synthesis as a good ending. Since the ending is very open to interpretation and heavily suggests that it is good, I see no reason why I shouldn't. 

About transhumanism:
The attitude towards transhumanism has always been somewhat confusing in the ME trilogy. Let me first correct the definition: transhumanism is a movement that affirms the desirability of fundamentally transforming the human condition through technology. Brain augmentations are not a necessary part of it, though their desirability would be affirmed as well, nor is integration of technology a necessary part. Changes can be wrought just as well by genetic modification. There are two elements to the definition of a change that would qualify as "transhumanist":
(1) The change must affect the human condition, i.e. the existential state of an individual, in a way which could reasonably be considered desirable.
(2) The change must be part of the individual.
A real-life example of a technology that fits (1) is reliable chemical contraception. Throughout our history, we have always been at the mercy of our reproductive urges. These days, we can opt out of the consequences. Ask almost any woman in the western world, and she'll tell you it's almost impossible to imagine a world without reliable contraception. Now imagine a technology that gives human women the built-in ability to affect their fertility through an act of will, no harder to realize than the decision to swallow something in your mouth or not. The fundamental empowering of humans that comes with such technologies, against limitations set by our evolutionary history, lies at the heart of transhumanism.

For that reason, while Synthesis invokes transapience (the species-generalized term) as a theme, it also comes close to betraying its spirit, since while the changes may ultimately give the individual more options, the fact that the change itself is non-optional undermines its thematic integrity. No transhumanist, discounting some extremists, will ever be comfortable with ME3's Synthesis. If it is chosen for the theme of transapience, it will nonetheless always be marred by the fact that you are making the choice for everyone. Just as those who choose Destroy often desperately want to find a way to headcanon the survival of the geth, most of those who choose Synthesis would rather prefer a scenario where, for instance, Shepard becomes its avatar, guiding the galaxy towards a transapient future rather than push the button "Synthesize everyone".

Transhumans in the ME trilogy - Shepard *is* a transhuman:
Recall Martin Burns, the head of the Alliance Parliamentary Subcommittee for Transhuman Studies? Biotics are considered transhuman. I said that the ME trilogy has had a confusing atttitude towards transhumanism, and nowhere does that show more than in the fact that transhumanism is thematized in ME3 with no mention of biotics, and Shepard is autodialogue'd to be critical of it in spite of being a transhuman himself. The redefinition of "transhuman" as "with an augmented brain" is extremely confusing, until you realize that a lot of people have a reflexive hate towards it, particularly the conservative types. The ME trilogy has a lot of elements that appeal specifically to conservative types, and whose presence is inexplicable if you don't assume that they are intentionally written that way. The writers wanted to distance their protagonist from transhumanism, masking the reality: Shepard *is* transhuman. He has superhuman strength, he is immune to most poisons, his brain is imprinted with the Prothean Cipher, and he is canonically a (latent or operative) biotic.

Other notable transhumans in the ME trilogy:
*Miranda Lawson. Realized through genetics, she is significantly longer-lived and has superhuman intelligence. The only reason why this isn't more apparent is that it's largely an informed trait.
*Keiji Okuda. Carrying a memory augmentation in his brain definitely qualifies.
*Kai Leng. Reaper augmentations count as well. Most players assume Reaper technology was used to bring Shepard back to life, which is somewhat supported by Miranda saying there was "black box" technology involved. Kai Leng may be indoctrinated, but this suggestes that indoctrination is not a necessary side effect of Reaper augmentations.

So, now back to Shepard. As I outlined, Shepard is a transhuman, and Synthesis naturally connects with that aspect of him/her in spite of the thematic concerns raised by the OP and elsewhere. Which aspect will become dominant in any player's mind - the "suspect information source", the "force this choice on everone" or the appeal of a transapient future, that ultimately depends on how you experienced the story. Nobody experiences stories only as a recipient, in an RPG even less. We all put something of ourselves into the stories we play. If I say that Synthesis appears to be genuinely Shepard's choice, for my game, and my main Shepard, that is true, while for others Destroy may be genuinely Shepard's choice.

In the end, I have my transapient future. Whether or not the Reapers had a preference for it does not concern me overmuch, and while I'm not exactly excited about how it comes about, and I outright hate the suggestion of vitalism used in the exposition and try to reframe it in acceptable terms, it is the kind of future my main Shepard has always envisioned as desirable. Now the OP will tell me that this is the way indoctrination works - it makes you believe that the Reapers will realize your fondest dreams. Well, this is why I see the OP's concerns as reasonable. That I nonetheless reject them is because I see the origin of the Synthesis as lying in the Crucible. It also has something to do with the way I look at the story from without. Thematic concerns, meta-level perceptions and in-world rationale all go into my decision, as they go into anyone's. Look at the interpretations and tell me it's not so. For me, Synthesis is not a trick, and that stance is at least as valid as the opposing one. More so, if you take meta-level considerations into account.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 février 2013 - 03:04 .


#167
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 016 messages
Synthesis is merely the idea of retooling nature to reflect a new perspective, that is, nature it's self is tweeked to provide services,as well as bounty. In a way, it 'animates' nature. That's the only reason you see ciruits in the fauna and on the skin of organics. We 'dose' all life with technology. A temporary fix for the MEU at best, but gives breathing room for nature to adjust to advanced synthetic life.

The "nature" is organic intellect within the natural order and syncopation of time, during the instance of being for all concerned, who must rationalize the need for advanced intelligent life forms. Apparently nature it's self requires it through evolution, otherwise organics wouldn't of progressed through evolution to learn to invoke such a thing as sentient life from natures bounty.

Of course it all could just be chaos and coined as an eventful accident, like galactic collision,big bangs and other elusive constructs in spacetime, too countless to contemplate. But that wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

#168
ElSuperGecko

ElSuperGecko
  • Members
  • 2 314 messages
Hreat thread, OP.

Whichever way you look at it, Shepard choosing Synthesis is Shepard literally playing right into the Reaper's hands.

It requires massive amounts of headcanon to justify that decision, and even more to believe that Shepard would consider it a good idea.

#169
jstme

jstme
  • Members
  • 2 008 messages

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis is merely the idea of retooling nature to reflect a new perspective, that is, nature it's self is tweeked to provide services,as well as bounty. In a way, it 'animates' nature. That's the only reason you see ciruits in the fauna and on the skin of organics. We 'dose' all life with technology. A temporary fix for the MEU at best, but gives breathing room for nature to adjust to advanced synthetic life.

The "nature" is organic intellect within the natural order and syncopation of time, during the instance of being for all concerned, who must rationalize the need for advanced intelligent life forms. Apparently nature it's self requires it through evolution, otherwise organics wouldn't of progressed through evolution to learn to invoke such a thing as sentient life from natures bounty.

Of course it all could just be chaos and coined as an eventful accident, like galactic collision,big bangs and other elusive constructs in spacetime, too countless to contemplate. But that wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

 Nature has 0 need or interest to adjust to advanced synthetic life. Tree is not competing with Geth - not for spheres of interest, not for habitat ,nor for resources. This is why synthesis of aLL organic life is completely unneeded,
 And sufficiently advanced synthetic life would have no need to compete with advanced organic life for the same reasons. This is one of the rasons why Catalyst excuse for reaping is completely derp.   
  

#170
ghost9191

ghost9191
  • Members
  • 2 287 messages
well i don't think anyone on these forums can be called a luddite... i mean ffs they are talking about someone that is on the forums ( which they are most likely using a computer to access ) for a game that they play on console or computer

yeah well my reasons are deep too , pretty damn deep

although good to see ieldra fighting the good fight still ... you know if you ever decide to form a cult ( i don't mean the one that is about synthesis ) sign me up

Modifié par ghost9191, 12 février 2013 - 01:20 .


#171
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 016 messages

jstme wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis is merely the idea of retooling nature to reflect a new perspective, that is, nature it's self is tweeked to provide services,as well as bounty. In a way, it 'animates' nature. That's the only reason you see ciruits in the fauna and on the skin of organics. We 'dose' all life with technology. A temporary fix for the MEU at best, but gives breathing room for nature to adjust to advanced synthetic life.

The "nature" is organic intellect within the natural order and syncopation of time, during the instance of being for all concerned, who must rationalize the need for advanced intelligent life forms. Apparently nature it's self requires it through evolution, otherwise organics wouldn't of progressed through evolution to learn to invoke such a thing as sentient life from natures bounty.

Of course it all could just be chaos and coined as an eventful accident, like galactic collision,big bangs and other elusive constructs in spacetime, too countless to contemplate. But that wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

 Nature has 0 need or interest to adjust to advanced synthetic life. Tree is not competing with Geth - not for spheres of interest, not for habitat ,nor for resources. This is why synthesis of aLL organic life is completely unneeded,
 And sufficiently advanced synthetic life would have no need to compete with advanced organic life for the same reasons. This is one of the rasons why Catalyst excuse for reaping is completely derp.   
  


but "life" is considerate of nature, as a tool to exist, so synthesis is required to redesign nature as a better tool.

Intelligence is only considered as just how well it can manipulate matter, matter being nature, inatimate. You slap intelligence into a toaster, it becomes anamated and if enough intelligence, sapient and with that it starts to manipulate matter and becomes 'being'. See the signifigance of that catalyst trap in the MEU yet?

Synthetic life in the MEU will not be ignored..the catalyst solution will not work any more..and organics just don't really care what 'nature' has interests in, when it comes to survival. Nature built "life" to become sentient, sentience built machines to ease the trials of nature, nature built machines via organics..all natural occurance due to evolution.

Quite the trap,eh?

#172
Indy_S

Indy_S
  • Members
  • 2 092 messages

ghost9191 wrote...

well i don't think anyone on these forums can be called a luddite... i mean ffs they are talking about someone that is on the forums ( which they are most likely using a computer to access ) for a game that they play on console or computer


The reason this thread is titled the way it is is because it's a response to a post by Auld Wulf.

The OP is desiring to disconnect transhumanism and Synthesis. Just because he believes in one, he doesn't have to believe in the other. Auld Wulf infers that everyone who doesn't accept Synthesis is a luddite.

#173
Helios969

Helios969
  • Members
  • 2 752 messages

Wayning_Star wrote...

jstme wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis is merely the idea of retooling nature to reflect a new perspective, that is, nature it's self is tweeked to provide services,as well as bounty. In a way, it 'animates' nature. That's the only reason you see ciruits in the fauna and on the skin of organics. We 'dose' all life with technology. A temporary fix for the MEU at best, but gives breathing room for nature to adjust to advanced synthetic life.

The "nature" is organic intellect within the natural order and syncopation of time, during the instance of being for all concerned, who must rationalize the need for advanced intelligent life forms. Apparently nature it's self requires it through evolution, otherwise organics wouldn't of progressed through evolution to learn to invoke such a thing as sentient life from natures bounty.

Of course it all could just be chaos and coined as an eventful accident, like galactic collision,big bangs and other elusive constructs in spacetime, too countless to contemplate. But that wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

 Nature has 0 need or interest to adjust to advanced synthetic life. Tree is not competing with Geth - not for spheres of interest, not for habitat ,nor for resources. This is why synthesis of aLL organic life is completely unneeded,
 And sufficiently advanced synthetic life would have no need to compete with advanced organic life for the same reasons. This is one of the rasons why Catalyst excuse for reaping is completely derp.   
  


but "life" is considerate of nature, as a tool to exist, so synthesis is required to redesign nature as a better tool.

Intelligence is only considered as just how well it can manipulate matter, matter being nature, inatimate. You slap intelligence into a toaster, it becomes anamated and if enough intelligence, sapient and with that it starts to manipulate matter and becomes 'being'. See the signifigance of that catalyst trap in the MEU yet?

Synthetic life in the MEU will not be ignored..the catalyst solution will not work any more..and organics just don't really care what 'nature' has interests in, when it comes to survival. Nature built "life" to become sentient, sentience built machines to ease the trials of nature, nature built machines via organics..all natural occurance due to evolution.

Quite the trap,eh?


Does nature care?  Some of you make it sound as if nature is some galactic super intelligence and its designs are some grand scheme.  Nature just is...if the crucible annihilated all life (sentient or otherwise) nature would be "indifferent" and the randomness of evolution would just begin anew.

#174
Helios969

Helios969
  • Members
  • 2 752 messages

Indy_S wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

well i don't think anyone on these forums can be called a luddite... i mean ffs they are talking about someone that is on the forums ( which they are most likely using a computer to access ) for a game that they play on console or computer


The reason this thread is titled the way it is is because it's a response to a post by Auld Wulf.

The OP is desiring to disconnect transhumanism and Synthesis. Just because he believes in one, he doesn't have to believe in the other. Auld Wulf infers that everyone who doesn't accept Synthesis is a luddite.


Auld's claim doesn't make any sense.  None of the roughly 80% that rejected synthesis would not have even made a choice without technology to play the game in the first place.  Silly...have doubts that person even understands what (neo)luddism means.

#175
Wayning_Star

Wayning_Star
  • Members
  • 8 016 messages

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

jstme wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis is merely the idea of retooling nature to reflect a new perspective, that is, nature it's self is tweeked to provide services,as well as bounty. In a way, it 'animates' nature. That's the only reason you see ciruits in the fauna and on the skin of organics. We 'dose' all life with technology. A temporary fix for the MEU at best, but gives breathing room for nature to adjust to advanced synthetic life.

The "nature" is organic intellect within the natural order and syncopation of time, during the instance of being for all concerned, who must rationalize the need for advanced intelligent life forms. Apparently nature it's self requires it through evolution, otherwise organics wouldn't of progressed through evolution to learn to invoke such a thing as sentient life from natures bounty.

Of course it all could just be chaos and coined as an eventful accident, like galactic collision,big bangs and other elusive constructs in spacetime, too countless to contemplate. But that wouldn't be any fun, now would it?

 Nature has 0 need or interest to adjust to advanced synthetic life. Tree is not competing with Geth - not for spheres of interest, not for habitat ,nor for resources. This is why synthesis of aLL organic life is completely unneeded,
 And sufficiently advanced synthetic life would have no need to compete with advanced organic life for the same reasons. This is one of the rasons why Catalyst excuse for reaping is completely derp.   
  


but "life" is considerate of nature, as a tool to exist, so synthesis is required to redesign nature as a better tool.

Intelligence is only considered as just how well it can manipulate matter, matter being nature, inatimate. You slap intelligence into a toaster, it becomes anamated and if enough intelligence, sapient and with that it starts to manipulate matter and becomes 'being'. See the signifigance of that catalyst trap in the MEU yet?

Synthetic life in the MEU will not be ignored..the catalyst solution will not work any more..and organics just don't really care what 'nature' has interests in, when it comes to survival. Nature built "life" to become sentient, sentience built machines to ease the trials of nature, nature built machines via organics..all natural occurance due to evolution.

Quite the trap,eh?


Does nature care?  Some of you make it sound as if nature is some galactic super intelligence and its designs are some grand scheme.  Nature just is...if the crucible annihilated all life (sentient or otherwise) nature would be "indifferent" and the randomness of evolution would just begin anew.


Well, I'm not one of those. Its about where stuff came from originally. Not religion tho.

Some do suspect that nature isn't exactly 'planned'..but by who or what is in question. Other portend that nature just "is" and everything and everyone are just byproducts of that mass. Then we got 'intelligence' to deal with and what caused for that. Then what 'taylors' intelligence as it exist in nature, as to why tools are used,and what they might consist of. The bigger the job the bigger the tool.

Some don't believe that evolution is random though, that it's designed to alter life as it exists, like scientific laws govern science and discovery,etc. How that works is another complete topic tho..

anyway, if you need to, even nature can be manipulated to the point of changing it at the basest levels, IF the tools to do that are available. Apparently, someone in the MEU thinks so. Who that is authored the synthesis choice.

That is part of what I've been saying in the last few(or more) posts. We never can really tell who that would be though, as it's never been reveiled who authors the choices menu. We barely get to know who might of engineered the crucible, capable of altering nature in such a way.