258 réponses à ce sujet

[Errel]

Wow, it's a multiplayer topic, i was wondering if someone was ever gonna make one of these...


Edit: Hey you know what? Someone should really ask about bowstrings... and mounts.. and flying, swimming

Modifié par Errel, 19 octobre 2009 - 07:05 .

[Snoteye]

SheffSteel wrote...

snip

Objectively, yes, you're absolutely right. It's not like I wouldn't buy a game because it had multiplayer, either (and I have invested many hours in multiplayer NWN). It just so happens that multiplayer, specifically, is a lot of work, and, as AndarianTD mentioned, the game is either made for multiplayer or singleplayer. As a consumer, however, I still think I have every right to want a product tailored to my tastes, as you should one tailored to your tastes (I'll add that I also don't think I'm complaining -- at least, I'm not trying to -- just pointing out why I don't want multiplayer and why it's so unlikely to happen). Incidentally, the race (and class, for that matter) thing is not a perfect analogy since for many it will add to singleplayer value. Multiplayer support, by definition, cannot better the singleplayer experience.

Errel wrote...

Edit: Hey you know what? Someone should really ask about bowstrings... and mounts.. and flying, swimming

Why? I mean, we will be getting mounts, right?

[BLACK RAVEN21]

A co-op or multiplayer dlc mode would be amazing. I know alot of people who are this undecide about getting this game, my opinion there idiots. But I know if it had a co-op or multiplayer set up many more people would want to play it. One thing i'm consider about is the length of time it'll take Bioware to produce more DLC. Becuase it took them forever to release the two DLC that are out now. Granted they were also in the process of making three amazing titles at the same time so I can cut them some slack. I'm just hoping more Dragon Age DLC will be released in a timely fashion. I do have a message for the Bioware staff/ Compay which is: Thank you For your excellent work popping amazing Games one after another. I can honestly say that i've never played a crappy bioware game, cause they all are truly awesome so Please keep up the good work!

[MadHatt3r]

EVE Online is talking about a new release they are working on called Dust 514 which will integrate console's with their PC based MMO. I dont know anymore than anyone else - and probably understand the concepts less; but I say it here just to say they believe it is possible to merge PC based games with console. 

Personally I hope DA:O does go multi-player (not mmo) in the future. Like others here I enjoyed NWN multiplayer for a few years. The community and entertainment I was able to enjoy from NWN was worth far more than I ever paid for the game.

Modifié par MadHatt3r, 19 octobre 2009 - 07:36 .

[Chadthesad]

General consensus for RPG games these days is a solid single player experience. My opinion is this is due to the flood of MMO's on the market. The Dark Eye: Drakensang, recently gave fans of RPG's that experience. (solid single player with no mplayer) Dragon age: Origin's will probably have a multiplayer feature's and will probably be implemented in post release content.

[LdyShayna]

SheffSteel wrote...

Incidentally I don't like the argument that the developers shouldn't support multiplayer because, well, Snoteye etc. don't want to play it. What about the fact that I don't want to play an elf? I'm sure the devs put a lot of resources into animating and voicing elves, and I have to pay for that when I buy the game. But you don't see me complaining about it, because I realise that if they only worked on the content that everyone could agree on, there wouldn't be much of a game at all. That's why they call it the lowest common denominator.

I can't speak for Snoteye, and I'm not sure I count as part of etc, but I would point out that my point was to refute the idea that it doesn't hurt the singleplayer experience to have multiplayer added.  It does, and if that's what I'm primarily interested in, then it's a lose situation from my point of view. 

You can try to argue that it's worth it from your point of view, or from a market point of view, but to try to spin it that singleplayer fans do not "pay" for multiplayer in any way is not true.  That's all.

I would also reiterate - from everythign they've said on this topic in the past, there's no chance that Dragon Age: Origins is going to have an expansion or patch that will add multiplayer, and certainly no chance it will add a DM client or something similar.  Might someone hack the code and find some way to wedge in a half-hearted attempt at co-op.  Umm...I guess?  But if you want multiplayer in Thedas, it would need to be a different game in the franchise.  Saying how much you WOSH it were in is not going to make any difference at this point to this game.

[DeaconX]

LdyShayna wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Incidentally I don't like the argument that the developers shouldn't support multiplayer because, well, Snoteye etc. don't want to play it. What about the fact that I don't want to play an elf? I'm sure the devs put a lot of resources into animating and voicing elves, and I have to pay for that when I buy the game. But you don't see me complaining about it, because I realise that if they only worked on the content that everyone could agree on, there wouldn't be much of a game at all. That's why they call it the lowest common denominator.

I can't speak for Snoteye, and I'm not sure I count as part of etc, but I would point out that my point was to refute the idea that it doesn't hurt the singleplayer experience to have multiplayer added.  It does, and if that's what I'm primarily interested in, then it's a lose situation from my point of view. 

Wait, what?  You're saying that having the old co-op/multiplayer/GM features from Neverwinter Nights in DA:O would have somehow hurt the singleplayer experience of the game?

[LdyShayna]

DeaconX wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Incidentally I don't like the argument that the developers shouldn't support multiplayer because, well, Snoteye etc. don't want to play it. What about the fact that I don't want to play an elf? I'm sure the devs put a lot of resources into animating and voicing elves, and I have to pay for that when I buy the game. But you don't see me complaining about it, because I realise that if they only worked on the content that everyone could agree on, there wouldn't be much of a game at all. That's why they call it the lowest common denominator.

I can't speak for Snoteye, and I'm not sure I count as part of etc, but I would point out that my point was to refute the idea that it doesn't hurt the singleplayer experience to have multiplayer added.  It does, and if that's what I'm primarily interested in, then it's a lose situation from my point of view. 

Wait, what?  You're saying that having the old co-op/multiplayer/GM features from Neverwinter Nights in DA:O would have somehow hurt the singleplayer experience of the game?

Yes, because they would have had to devote a great deal of effort to it - effort they would NOT have been able to give to the singleplayer aspect.  Just like what happened in NWN.

[DeaconX]

LdyShayna wrote...

DeaconX wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Incidentally I don't like the argument that the developers shouldn't support multiplayer because, well, Snoteye etc. don't want to play it. What about the fact that I don't want to play an elf? I'm sure the devs put a lot of resources into animating and voicing elves, and I have to pay for that when I buy the game. But you don't see me complaining about it, because I realise that if they only worked on the content that everyone could agree on, there wouldn't be much of a game at all. That's why they call it the lowest common denominator.

I can't speak for Snoteye, and I'm not sure I count as part of etc, but I would point out that my point was to refute the idea that it doesn't hurt the singleplayer experience to have multiplayer added.  It does, and if that's what I'm primarily interested in, then it's a lose situation from my point of view. 

Wait, what?  You're saying that having the old co-op/multiplayer/GM features from Neverwinter Nights in DA:O would have somehow hurt the singleplayer experience of the game?

Yes, because they would have had to devote a great deal of effort to it - effort they would NOT have been able to give to the singleplayer aspect.  Just like what happened in NWN.

...okay but lets say the single player game was completed as envisioned, AND the multiplayer aspects were also in place.  That's a total win/win.

[Snoteye]

Yes, but that's not possible. Not even in theory.

[LdyShayna]

This isn't going to happen, though.  There are limited amounts of money that can be thrown at a game before there's no chance it will ever make it's money back.  One game CANNOT be all things to all people.  It just cannot.  Wishing it would happen does not make it so. 

The multiplayer tacked on to the BG series would be blasted by the reviewers and gameplayers of today.  The extremely heavy emphasis on multiplayer in NWN made a huge number of sacrifices in singleplayer gameplay that I really would rather not see repeated (and note that the expansion campaigns all required singelplayer for a reason).

The concept of Dragon Age Origins in the very, very beginning was going to have multiplayer, including a multiplayer campaign and everything, but they realized that it was just too much for one game to have and scrapped it several years ago.  They have since said that they would like to have some multiplyaer in the franchise somewhere, but it would be a separate game.

Modifié par LdyShayna, 19 octobre 2009 - 08:10 .

[DeaconX]

LdyShayna wrote...



This isn't going to happen, though.  There are limited amounts of money that can be thrown at a game before there's no chance it will ever make it's money back.  One game CANNOT be all things to all people.  It just cannot.  Wishing it would happen does not make it so. 

The multiplayer tacked on to the BG series would be blasted by the reviewers and gameplayers of today.  The extremely heavy emphasis on multiplayer in NWN made a huge number of sacrifices in singleplayer gameplay that I really would rather not see repeated (and note that the expansion campaigns all required singelplayer for a reason).

The concept of Dragon Age Origins in the very, very beginning was going to have multiplayer, including a multiplayer campaign and everything, but they realized that it was just too much for one game to have and scrapped it several years ago.  They have since said that they would like to have some multiplyaer in the franchise somewhere, but it would be a separate game.

I understand the monetary/time limitations...but will miss the ability to play with friends - Still, I can't wait to play it to be honest because the game SOUNDS like it will be epic in scope.  And I'm looking forward to a multiplayer aspect of it in the future, be it DA2/3/Online -- whatever form.

[aerows]

I have faith that this game will eventually have MP and Co-op. I think they are just testing out the IP to see if it is worth implementing. Bioware doesn't put out crappy products, and when DAO gets MP, it will be good. They don't typically do mediocre.

[AzmodantheRed]

I don't know why you bothered quoting when you clearly didn't bothered reading. Everytime something is added to a game, something else isn't. I don't want that something else to be related to singleplayer in any way; I am fine with it being related to multiplayer.

I did read it. Problem here is you simply did not understand my response.

Your statement is simplistic and flawed.
Sometimes you add at the expense of something else yes.
but this does not happen every time.

You got limited time and effort, this is mainly due to a limited amount of money for development.

If i go to DAO and give them several million if they add this and that. It is added extra content.
Does it come at the expense of something else?? No...cause if they do not use it on the content, money is withdrawn.  

If the expected EXTRA profit from adding MP is a certain amount. This might justify spending MORE money (and thus time and effort) on development. So we do get some ADDED content that does NOT come at the expense of anything.

Concluding: adding MP pays in part for itself.
With the extra profit you can decide to spend extra development

It then depends on the market and development restrictions if MP can fully pay for itself. Or if you have to cut corners in other aspects of the game.  

I know neither total man hours nor percentages of total development time, only that it's too much for my liking.

I would like to know. To make an informed decision. 

You rather make it on flawed assumptions it seems.

Why should i pay both with money and a lessened personal enjoyment of the same game?

1. Greater success of the game=more money for future development=more single player experience in the future.

2. Depending on certain circumstances. MP pays for itself.

But your entitled to your opinion. I never expected certain ppl to be so blinded by their hatred for MP.

Modifié par AzmodantheRed, 19 octobre 2009 - 08:49 .

[MadHatt3r]

To the one's debating "multiplayer is at the expense of singleplayer" I give you:

Bioware already admitted that their developers were bored and "created additional content during the testing period which was added later as downloadable content".

The hooks and code for multi-player is far more extensive than a few extra zone's and character acting I'm sure; however the argument that they *couldnt* do it because they would make single-player suffer if they did is flawed.

Now, to the question in general I add in another piece of the puzzle.

So far, Dragon Age appears to be following a very "Sim's" like production from the EA perspective. I expect we will see an emphasis on buying and exchanging items (armor, weapons etc) from this social site. Sim's never had a multi-player experience - EA kept it alive by constantly adding new content (something I expect to happen for DA:O). Instead, The Sim's community was congealed by sharing game statistics (see your homepage here and notice it lists a lot of stat's about your game). I expect we will see such "rewards" from DA:O as well - medals, "unique" armors, etc that give the player a "status symbol".  (eg; a horse and carrot reward system)

Modifié par MadHatt3r, 19 octobre 2009 - 09:07 .

[LdyShayna]

AzmodantheRed wrote...

I don't know why you bothered quoting when you clearly didn't bothered reading. Everytime something is added to a game, something else isn't. I don't want that something else to be related to singleplayer in any way; I am fine with it being related to multiplayer.

I did read it. Problem here is you simply did not understand my response.

Your statement is simplistic and flawed.
Sometimes you add at the expense of something else yes.
but this does not happen every time.

You got limited time and effort, this is mainly due to a limited amount of money for development.

If i go to DAO and give them several million if they add this and that. It is added extra content.
Does it come at the expense of something else?? No...cause if they do not use it on the content, money is withdrawn.  

If the expected EXTRA profit from adding MP is a certain amount. This might justify spending MORE money (and thus time and effort) on development. So we do get some ADDED content that does NOT come at the expense of anything.

Concluding: adding MP pays in part for itself.
With the extra profit you can decide to spend extra development

It then depends on the market and development restrictions if MP can fully pay for itself. Or if you have to cut corners in other aspects of the game. 

In theory and to a certain extent and for certain types of content, this is true. However, there are apparently a great number of underlying engine design decisions that are involved where singleplayer needs pull one way, and multiplayer needs pull another: how data is stored, how graphics are handled, etc. 

But your entitled to your opinion. I never expected certain ppl to be so blinded by their hatred for MP.

Please understand that, at least for my part, I've just had too many promising games turn out to have signficiant flaws (from my point of view) because of basic engine design decisions made to allow for multiplayer. It isn't true for every single one, but for enough that those it does NTO effect are the exceptions to a general rule as far as I am concerned. 

You'll hopefully understand, as well, that it gets tiresome for people to declare that I can't possibly understand how much superior multiplayer is, even though I've given all types of multiplayer a chance.  You haven't, specifically, but these thread keep getting brought up, and invariably get insulting.  There's a lot of baggage involved in this particular topic, I'm afraid.

[AzmodantheRed]

MadHatt3r wrote...

To the one's debating "multiplayer is at the expense of singleplayer" I give you:

Bioware already admitted that their developers were bored and "created additional content during the testing period which was added later as downloadable content".

The hooks and code for multi-player is far more extensive than a few extra zone's and character acting I'm sure; however the argument that they *couldnt* do it because they would make single-player suffer if they did is flawed.

Now, to the question in general I add in another piece of the puzzle.

So far, Dragon Age appears to be following a very "Sim's" like production from the EA perspective. I expect we will see an emphasis on buying and exchanging items (armor, weapons etc) from this social site. Sim's never had a multi-player experience - EA kept it alive by constantly adding new content (something I expect to happen for DA:O). Instead, The Sim's community was congealed by sharing game statistics (see your homepage here and notice it lists a lot of stat's about your game). I expect we will see such "rewards" from DA:O as well - medals, "unique" armors, etc that give the player a "status symbol".  (eg; a horse and carrot reward system)

question here is...will the DAO community care about stuff like this similar to the Sims fans? Especially with player created mods and material around? 

I know i wont. The only reason i bought expansions on NWN was multiplayer.
And WOW like pissing contests about items and levels do not interest me as well.

[SheffSteel]

(a) Supporting multiplayer is bad because it adds to the development cost of the product.
( Not supporting multiplayer is bad because of lost sales.

We can only hope that Bioware will believe (b > a) at some point. As I've said before, that's more likely to be in a future DA game than in an add-on for this one.

ETA I created a poll to help evaluate (.
social.bioware.com/9460/polls/212/

Modifié par SheffSteel, 19 octobre 2009 - 09:35 .

[AzmodantheRed]

In theory and to a certain extent and for certain types of content, this is true. However, there are apparently a great number of underlying engine design decisions that are involved where singleplayer needs pull one way, and multiplayer needs pull another: how data is stored, how graphics are handled, etc. 

To bad im not a programmer buff. I am skeptic about how hard it is to do a NWN type toolset and MP client though. Its been how many years and they can copy much from it.

You'll hopefully understand, as well, that it gets tiresome for people to declare that I can't possibly understand how much superior multiplayer is, even though I've given all types of multiplayer a chance.  You haven't, specifically, but these thread keep getting brought up, and invariably get insulting.  There's a lot of baggage involved in this particular topic, I'm afraid.

Yeah i acted a bit to agressively.
It just seemed like people were undermining a cool feature for so many (and success of game) just due to their personal tastes being diminished ever so slightly.

[LdyShayna]

To bad im not a programmer buff. I am skeptic about how hard it is to do a NWN type toolset and MP client though. Its been how many years and they can copy much from it.

It's a completely different engine, so I'm not sure how much they can really copy.  Perhaps they could learn from their experiences, of course.  *shrugs*  They said that this was the reason i was cut, and I'm not familiar enough with their new engine to argue it.

EDIT:  Certainly, though, I believe it would be A LOT more difficult than adding a few items or even finishing up a bunch of side quests.

Yeah i acted a bit to agressively.
It just seemed like people were undermining a cool feature for so many (and success of game) just due to their personal tastes being diminished ever so slightly.

Heh.  Well, keep in mind that I don't believe that it undermines the success of the game.  I believe quite the opposite, in fact.

Modifié par LdyShayna, 19 octobre 2009 - 09:24 .

[AndarianTD]

AzmodantheRed wrote...

Then its simply about the multiplayer experience. vs more time to work on single player experience. large part matter of personal preferance.

You talk about tremendous work required to get cutscenes etc to work in MP due to game mechanics. Well i dont need cutscenes in MP.

really...how much work is it to copy something NWN did 7 years ago. minus the co-op?

A lot of it is personal preference, yes, and the ability to invest resources into making one kind of experience better as opposed to another. But that's not the whole of the story. As I said, different and often incompatible design choices have to be made in architecting a system to excel at doing one kind of thing vs. another.

Your comment about cutscenes really illustrates the point. You say you don't need cutscenes in MP -- fair enough. But SP modders such as myself, who specialize in creating a dramatic or cinematic experience, absolutely do need them. And to make a really good dramatic module, we need them to be robust and powerful, and for the engine to be architected around making them so. And DA has the most powerful game-based cutscene generation features I've ever seen. The price of doing that really well is that it can't be designed to do other things at the same time -- because it would cost too much, bloat the engine with too many cross-purposed features to make it perform well, and so on.
 
What you're asking, in effect -- and to use an analogy -- is why the designers of the Ferrari didn't add a rear propellor and pontoons to it as well. After all, wouldn't it be better if you could sail it as well as drive it? In a sense, I guess, but it wouldn't be nearly as good a sports car if it were built that way. Building really good dramatic SP mods for NWN1 was often complicated for just those kinds of reasons, which is why I personally am excited by how Dragon Age was designed.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 12 janvier 2011 - 12:18 .

[Snoteye]

AzmodantheRed wrote...

Your statement is simplistic and flawed.
Sometimes you add at the expense of something else yes.
but this does not happen every time.

It is neither simplistic nor flawed, it's accurate. Maybe you're right that it isn't always the case, but it just so happens to be the case as far as this discussion goes. And I'm not just saying that because I think SP > MP.

AzmodantheRed wrote...

You got limited time and effort, this is mainly due to a limited amount of money for development.

If i go to DAO and give them several million if they add this and that. It is added extra content.
Does it come at the expense of something else?? No...cause if they do not use it on the content, money is withdrawn.

That is both an absurd argument and not entirely true. Hypothetical scenarios are entertaining and all, but pointless when they have little to no basis in reality. And if they do get money like you say, and spend it adding multiplayer support, it will still cost them time -- either they must take this time from other game features or push back the release date. Both options affect me directly.

AzmodantheRed wrote...

If the expected EXTRA profit from adding MP is a certain amount. This might justify spending MORE money (and thus time and effort) on development. So we do get some ADDED content that does NOT come at the expense of anything.

Concluding: adding MP pays in part for itself.
With the extra profit you can decide to spend extra development

It then depends on the market and development restrictions if MP can fully pay for itself. Or if you have to cut corners in other aspects of the game.

Try and understand this: it is not the same game. Multiplayer is not something you just develop and plugin like a hak pack. If the only difference between two engines is that one is aimed at singleplayer and the other multiplayer, then any given singleplayer story will invariably run better on the former. Even if you do not see it as a player, all the behind-the-scenes stuff will be smoother (meaning e.g. faster load times or smaller save files). I would rather transition a second faster than have a feature I will never use.

AzmodantheRed wrote...

I know neither total man hours nor percentages of total development time, only that it's too much for my liking.

I would like to know. To make an informed decision.

You rather make it on flawed assumptions it seems.

You're missing the point. It's not about the actual number. The number could be one single hour and it would still be too much.

AzmodantheRed wrote...

1. Greater success of the game=more money for future development=more single player experience in the future.

But by your logic -- and that of pretty much everyone arguing for multiplayer -- the same argument can be applied to future titles as well, meaning we will never get dedicated singleplayer games.

AndarianTD wrote...

... why the designers of the Ferrari didn't add a rear propellor and pontoons to it as well.

[AndarianTD]

The extremely heavy emphasis on multiplayer in NWN made a huge number of sacrifices in singleplayer gameplay that I really would rather not see repeated (and note that the expansion campaigns all required singelplayer for a reason).

Quoted for truth. As an NWN1 SP modder, I can attest to the strongarming that the engine sometimes required in order to create a good dramatic SP experience

[Renul]

I don't think there is a possiblity for it in DAO, but maybe somewhere down the line in the Dragon Age Universe. I mean look at Star Wars. It has books, comics, FPS games, RTS games, RPGs, the MMO Galaxies, and soon to be MMO The Old Republic all made from one movie. Maybe DAO will expand that far one day as well.

[SumoFrog]

As someone who has been playing on NWN roleplay servers for the past 6 years, I would have loved to see a DAO toolset and multiplayer capability. For me, once the single player game has been beaten a time or five, there's very little reason to return to the game. In multiplayer, however, the story can continue almost indefinitely.

Which I suppose would be a reason for them not to include it, actually. I mean, they want people to buy their new games, not keep playing old ones!