258 réponses à ce sujet

[Tralaa]

MP did give something to keep the game going for years later after you were done playing single player and like said before you could play with friends.

[AndarianTD]

babyjaws wrote...

I think its an absolute disgrace that bioware left out co-op,
having the ability within the toolset wouldnt mess up the single player campaign at all.
its a disgrace,
ill never feel the same about Bioware again,
the amount of people that feel the same way is incredible, ive read hundreds of posts now on different forums
there IS a market for LAN based co-op rpg's
I dont care what anyone says.
and Im ********ed off  with the old "it would have spoiled the SP campaign....etc etc" argument.
HOGWASH

And I think it's a shame that some members of the CRPG community are choosing to throw tantrums like the one above. It's one thing to be disappointed, and another to express that disappointment abusively and disrespectfully. Let's try to keep things civil, folks.

I'm sure there is a market for LAN-based CRPGs. I'm also sure that Bioware has done its market research and has a good idea just to what extent that is the case. But so what? Just because you want want one doesn't mean they have to build one. They decided to build an exceptional SP CRPG instead of another compromised hybrid game, and they had their reasons.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 23 novembre 2009 - 07:23 .

[KalDurenik]

I would love to see NWN multiplayer for DAO

[AndarianTD]

Tralaa wrote...

MP did give something to keep the game going for years later after you were done playing single player and like said before you could play with friends.

It did -- but as I pointed out earlier in the thread, so did the community by turning out an almost limitless supply of (mostly SP) modules. With NWN you were never done playing single player if you wanted to, precisely because of that wealth of available work -- made possible by Bioware's development of a ground-breaking Toolset and a host of dedicated modders. The Dragon Age toolset is even better, and has the potential to create an even more robust SP playing and modding community.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 23 novembre 2009 - 11:43 .

[Morkat]

It did -- but as I pointed out earlier in the thread, so did the community by turning out an almost limitless supply of (mostly SP) modules.

Yes, because adding a nude brothel to my game will provide hours worth of new gameplay. Don't get me wrong, I know what you mean, but unless there's awesome voice acting involved like the original most "additions" to a story in singleplayer completely ruin the immersion for me. Silly? I don't know, since every character talks in DA:O I wouldn't want to accept the fact I can read lips and all these new people are mutes.

However, in multiplayer this is different. You have a DM guiding you and you're playing with other people. Why there is possibly no voices at all involved with this, it's an entirely new world thus it doesn't bother me at all. Besides, to play with other people gives a bigger spectrum to personalities. Not to mention complete new stories, stories you practically make with friends, or even strangers.

The whole I don't like MP and I don't want a sidequest to be sacrificed for it is selfish and quite possibly the most idiotic argument I heard. Have fun being selfish, a successful trait amongst human beings. Oh wait, no it isn't.

Let me try and explain: SP modules are made by fans? Correct. Not BioWare. Thus, if BioWare gives up some of their time to give this multiplayer option to modders, you will not be robbed from your precious replayability modules.

But wait! This is different, if BioWare adds content it fits perfectly within the story and world and it'll feel like an extention, we want their time!!

Exactly, I don't want "fun" modules for my "amazingly fun" singleplayer story. No thanks. Nor do I want to play through someone else's probably bug filled world and have to endure it on my own. Why would I torture myself? I'm better off playing pacman.

[Cj738]

I played nwn and I loved it. Played wow for 5 years and I liked it but never enjoyed it as much as nwn online. Don't get me wrong I loved nwn online but DA:O Doesn't really seem like that kind of game. It just doesn't have the appeal of the multiplayer nwn had. Maybe another game but what I really would like to see is Co-op online with friends and Co-op 2 player on the console version. I think co-op would enhance this game so much making it an all time epic.

[AndarianTD]

Morkat wrote...

[Trolling snipped]

I have to say that I'm getting really tired of obnoxious posts like this one. In this case I'll limit myself, though, to pointing out the irony of someone attacking others who prefer SP to MP as "selfish" -- in a post laced with interjections about how he wants MP, how lack of voice acting ruins immersion for him, how he doesn't want to "play through someone else's 'probably bug-filled world,'" and so on.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:22 .

[orpheus333]

I do wish their was a token multiplayer like BG1 & , it would definatly mean me and a few school mates getting together again. But we can't always have what we want and i am happy with DA as is.Perhaps that sort of stuff should be left for nostalgia anyway.

[LunaEclipse17173]

My hope is if they put multi-player into Dragon Age, they do it as a separate client, and make the OC single player only. Let the community work on multi-player worlds, and leave Bioware to balance the OC's they release to make them fun single player adventures.

I think a lot of the problems with the NWN OC's came from them trying to balance them for multi-player, if the OC's had of been single player only, they probably would have been a lot more balanced and interesting.

Modifié par LunaEclipse17173, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[AndarianTD]

LunaEclipse17173 wrote...

My hope is if they put multi-player into Dragon Age, they do it as a separate client, and make the OC single player only.

 
I agree, but...

Let the community work on multi-player worlds, and leave Bioware to balance the OC's they release to make them fun single player adventures.

You write as though the largest and most dynamic segment of the modding community for NWN and NWN2 -- the SP developers -- didn't even exist. I've commented on this before and I still don't get it. Let the community make MP worlds with a separate MP client (not a bad idea), and let Bioware make fun single player adventures? Don't you folks know about the hundreds upon hundreds of quality SP mods developed by the community for NWN and NWN2?

I'm also surprised at what seems to me to be a lack of awareness of Bioware's strategy to promote community modding for Dragon Age. Haven't you all heard about the resources that Bioware has invested in making available to community SP modders the most sophisticated adventure-building toolkit ever seen? If you haven't, you might want to check out the Gamespy articles featuring the toolset and the "Builder's Event" that I and some others attended this summer:

Build Your Own Adventure: An Exclusive Look at the Dragon Age Toolset
Voices of Creation: Dragon Age Toolset Interviews

Modifié par AndarianTD, 24 novembre 2009 - 04:27 .

[Morkat]

AndarianTD wrote...

Morkat wrote...

[Trolling snipped]

I have to say that I'm getting really tired of obnoxious posts like this one. In this case I'll limit myself, though, to pointing out the irony of someone attacking others who prefer SP to MP as "selfish" -- in a post laced with interjections about how he wants MP, how lack of voice acting ruins immersion for him, how he doesn't want to "play through someone else's 'probably bug-filled world,'" and so on.

I'm not being selfish, I was pointing out why said solution is hardly a solution for everyone. You can't please everyone, that's obvious, but to say singleplayer modules is the great solution is far from right. But thanks for trying.

By the way: Just because I have a strong opinion does not mean I'm trolling. 

Modifié par Morkat, 24 novembre 2009 - 09:30 .

[Jokemeister]

Just wanted to throw my 2c into the mix.

But before I get started, I really wanted to give a huge shout out to the (imho) excellent posts by Andarian TD.

Anyway, for myself, MP in RPG's like DAO don't add anything.  I know people in this thread talk about how great the MP in NWN is because of the DMed experience and I will admit that I have never experienced this.  However, I also know for a fact that I have no interest in this because of my lifestyle.

The fact is that I don't get as much gaming time as I would like (who does?).  Despite getting this game at launch, my first character has still to hit level 10.  I know for a fact that my work/life balance won't allow me to have an extended game session or to join a game session on a regular basis.  In terms of MP ala NWN, this means that I either:

a) only play in small modules which can be completed in less than 1-2 hours; or
only take part in the story on a sporadic basis (in which case, my character becomes a bit part player who only shows up when I have time while other players continue the campaign).

Neither option appeals to me.  The advantage of a strong SP campaign is that I can play through an epic campaign at my own pace and still feel like an important part of the story which, imo, is one of the reasons cRPGs became so popular in the first place.  If you are looking for a DMed experience, there is always PnP RPGS or, in the modern era, the use of other virtual tabletop software (although admittedly, this prob wouldn't give you the graphical polish of something like NWN or DAO).

Would I buy an RPG if it had both SP and MP?  Sure - but only if the SP campaign was worth the price of entry (this is one of the reasons that NWN remains the only BioWare RPG that I didn't buy*).

* Actually, I don't have the Sonic RPG either but considering that is only available on the DS, I'm not sure that including it is a valid comparison...

[babyjaws]

AndarianTD wrote...

babyjaws wrote...

I think its an absolute disgrace that bioware left out co-op,
having the ability within the toolset wouldnt mess up the single player campaign at all.
its a disgrace,
ill never feel the same about Bioware again,
the amount of people that feel the same way is incredible, ive read hundreds of posts now on different forums
there IS a market for LAN based co-op rpg's
I dont care what anyone says.
and Im ********ed off  with the old "it would have spoiled the SP campaign....etc etc" argument.
HOGWASH

And I think it's a shame that some members of the CRPG community are choosing to throw tantrums like the one above. It's one thing to be disappointed, and another to express that disappointment abusively and disrespectfully. Let's try to keep things civil, folks.

I'm sure there is a market for LAN-based CRPGs. I'm also sure that Bioware has done its market research and has a good idea just to what extent that is the case. But so what? Just because you want want one doesn't mean they have to build one. They decided to build an exceptional SP CRPG instead of another compromised hybrid game, and they had their reasons.

I really fail to see where Ive been abusive here, all ive done is express my dissapointment in the desicion to leave MP out of dragon age,
sorry you felt that was abusive and disrespectful
I always thought a forum was somewhere you could express your views?
is that not the case?

[GreenSoda]

I, for one, am glad that BW decided to stick to sp.



Not every game "needs mp". On the contrary. It's a drain on resources that story heavy games like DA *desperately* need to implement all the things that make sp-CRPG good and fun.



I hope possible sequels / expansion packs for DA will stay sp, too.

[AndarianTD]

Jokemeister wrote...

Just wanted to throw my 2c into the mix.

But before I get started, I really wanted to give a huge shout out to the (imho) excellent posts by Andarian TD.

Thanks!

Anyway, for myself, MP in RPG's like DAO don't add anything.  I know people in this thread talk about how great the MP in NWN is because of the DMed experience and I will admit that I have never experienced this.  However, I also know for a fact that I have no interest in this because of my lifestyle.

The fact is that I don't get as much gaming time as I would like (who does?).  Despite getting this game at launch, my first character has still to hit level 10.  I know for a fact that my work/life balance won't allow me to have an extended game session or to join a game session on a regular basis.  In terms of MP ala NWN, this means that I either:

a) only play in small modules which can be completed in less than 1-2 hours; or
only take part in the story on a sporadic basis (in which case, my character becomes a bit part player who only shows up when I have time while other players continue the campaign).

Neither option appeals to me.  The advantage of a strong SP campaign is that I can play through an epic campaign at my own pace and still feel like an important part of the story which, imo, is one of the reasons cRPGs became so popular in the first place.

This describes me as well, although I also have other reasons for my preference for SP over MP. The mediums are different and favor different kinds of storytelling experiences. SP favors the more structured kind of storytelling required for strongly plot-directed RPGs. 

If you are looking for a DMed experience, there is always PnP RPGS or, in the modern era, the use of other virtual tabletop software (although admittedly, this prob wouldn't give you the graphical polish of something like NWN or DAO).

Just for the record, NWN includes a DM client and is designed to allow a DMed (D&D based) experience as well.

Would I buy an RPG if it had both SP and MP?  Sure - but only if the SP campaign was worth the price of entry (this is one of the reasons that NWN remains the only BioWare RPG that I didn't buy*).

I'd say that you may have missed out, then. NWN's hybrid design did have features that made SP modding more difficult, but these were more than made up for by the power of the toolset -- which enabled the development of hundreds of really good standalone community authored SP modules. I only played the NWN OCs once and haven't touched them in the five years since. But I've yet to stop playing and building for the game, although I will be switching to Dragon Age sometime next year.

If anyone who doesn't know about this is interested in learning more, check out the "Academy for Modding Excellence" link in my .sig. NWN and NWN2 mods have become so plentiful and good over the years that we actually give out awards for them.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 24 novembre 2009 - 01:11 .

[Oeacle]

They will add some sort of multiplayer. Believe me or not, it will come.

[Jokemeister]

AndarianTD wrote...
I'd say that you may have missed out, then. NWN's hybrid design did have features that made SP modding more difficult, but these were more than made up for by the power of the toolset -- which enabled the development of hundreds of really good standalone community authored SP modules. I only played the NWN OCs once and haven't touched them in the five years since. But I've yet to stop playing and building for the game, although I will be switching to Dragon Age sometime next year.

If anyone who doesn't know about this is interested in learning more, check out the "Academy for Modding Excellence" link in my .sig. NWN and NWN2 mods have become so plentiful and good over the years that we actually give out awards for them.

I'm sure you are right.  The problem was that, at the time, all the focus was on the MP experience (and how it was able to duplicate PnP) and little focus was given to the SP campaign.  Throw in my natural preference for party based RPGs and the negative comments about the SP campaign and it all added up to me deciding to pass on it. 

Since then, there have been so many other quality games (particularly with the Steam weekend discounts and that I also play games on X360) that I just never got around to having another look at NWN.

[Jassper]

Oeacle wrote...

They will add some sort of multiplayer. Believe me or not, it will come.

I believe the Oeacle - Neo told me too.

But I agree, if not from Bioware, someone will figure out a way.

[Hazelthorne]

Just FYI NWN1 was so versitile and so useful in multi-player that people are STILL seriously playing it in PW today. Four years ago there were hundreds of international servers running Persistent Worlds and I have yet to EVER experience something so amazingly entertaining and social as a DM'd persisent world. Wow has always paled in comparison of those days. I had friends from around the world in this PW. We played D&D together every other night or so and developed characters with immense depth, relationships, and so forth.



Honestly I met my husband playing on a PW in NWN.



But I digress. I need DA multi-player to save my relationship. My husband and I are forced to live apart for economic reasons for the first time in four years. Multi-player would give us the ability to play together again, something we loved doing in our wonderful persistent world. He is an expert module designer and I write wonderful stories to design by as well.



I see so much potential in Dragon Age. So while I know that DA1 might not be able to have it, I do know that patches, multi-player expansions, and perhaps DA2 could make it happen?



And I would happily pay $80-$100 for multiplayer to be available.



Please save my marridge.

[BlueEyes_Austin]

I would be shocked, absolutely shocked, if more that five percent of NWN licenses were ever used to play a multiplayer game at all. To support this tiny community, Bioware tried to do way too much (campaign, toolset, mulrtiplayer) and that resulted in the release of a poorly optimized game that was full of bugs. Imagine if, in NWN1, the development effort and design decisions would have been tuned towards party interactions. Instead we got a laughable "henchman." The consequences of this in the engine would be felt for years, with the parties in NWN2 being just barely acceptable. All of that was due to multiplayer.



My reaction, within fifteen minutes of playing DA, was "They're back on track after the NWN digression."

[Challseus]

Morkat wrote...

It did -- but as I pointed out earlier in the thread, so did the community by turning out an almost limitless supply of (mostly SP) modules.

Yes, because adding a nude brothel to my game will provide hours worth of new gameplay. Don't get me wrong, I know what you mean, but unless there's awesome voice acting involved like the original most "additions" to a story in singleplayer completely ruin the immersion for me. Silly? I don't know, since every character talks in DA:O I wouldn't want to accept the fact I can read lips and all these new people are mutes.

I'm pretty sure AndarianTD is talking about the over 6000 all new single player campaigns (modules), not add ons/additions (mods). I too am not a fan of mods, but modules are a different story. I won't argue the merits of how SP modules have extended the life on NWN, as AndarianTD has already covered that.

[Challseus]

BlueEyes_Austin wrote...

I would be shocked, absolutely shocked, if more that five percent of NWN licenses were ever used to play a multiplayer game at all.

Someone else in this thread pointed it out that Bioware estimated it at around 5-10%. I actually saw these same findings years ago. When another "Single Player VS Multiplayer" war was going on right when NWN2 was released, I pointed it out, but since I had no proof (couldn't find the old post), and this is the internet, I was "wrong/ a liar".

*Shrug*

[Webber403]

Both characters dont have to talk to an NPC, it could be like Fable 2, where one player is the main one, and the second player is just a "henchmen". He will just count as another member of the 1st player's party.

[AndarianTD]

Challseus wrote...

Morkat wrote...

It did -- but as I pointed out earlier in the thread, so did the community by turning out an almost limitless supply of (mostly SP) modules.

Yes, because adding a nude brothel to my game will provide hours worth of new gameplay. Don't get me wrong, I know what you mean, but unless there's awesome voice acting involved like the original most "additions" to a story in singleplayer completely ruin the immersion for me. Silly? I don't know, since every character talks in DA:O I wouldn't want to accept the fact I can read lips and all these new people are mutes.

I'm pretty sure AndarianTD is talking about the over 6000 all new single player campaigns (modules), not add ons/additions (mods). I too am not a fan of mods, but modules are a different story. I won't argue the merits of how SP modules have extended the life on NWN, as AndarianTD has already covered that.

Thanks, Challseus -- that's exactly what I'm talking about. I started writing something to explain this, but I was getting tired of responding to rude posts and decided not to bother.

But for anyone who may not be familiar with modding in Neverwinter Nights (NWN), Challseus is right. "Mods" and "Modding" in NWN (NWN1 and NWN2) refer to building Modules or standalone adventures. They don't mean game modifications, as they often do in other games. This is important because Dragon Age is developed in the NWN tradition, and with an even more impressive adventure building toolset than either NWN game had.
 
A number of experienced NWN module builders have been in the loop regarding development and beta testing of the DA toolset, so we do know a little about this. Among other things, Bioware added a powerful level builder to the toolset, precisely to permit and facilitate developing the kind of standalone adventure modules that players of NWN were used to. The Academy for Modding Excellence (AME) is planning awards for Dragon Age at some point as well.

So if you're used to "mods" and "modding" referring to "additions" to the OC like a nude brothel rather than to new adventure modules, you may need to adapt to some new terminology.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 25 novembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[AndarianTD]

BlueEyes_Austin wrote...

I would be shocked, absolutely shocked, if more that five percent of NWN licenses were ever used to play a multiplayer game at all. To support this tiny community, Bioware tried to do way too much (campaign, toolset, mulrtiplayer) and that resulted in the release of a poorly optimized game that was full of bugs. Imagine if, in NWN1, the development effort and design decisions would have been tuned towards party interactions. Instead we got a laughable "henchman." The consequences of this in the engine would be felt for years, with the parties in NWN2 being just barely acceptable. All of that was due to multiplayer.

My reaction, within fifteen minutes of playing DA, was "They're back on track after the NWN digression."

I agree, but to be fair to the MP advocates this depends on your preferences and what you think the "right track" is. They're not wrong to want what they want, but it shouldn't be done with the same engine as an SP game. You and I have already pointed out the problems with the "hybrid approach," so I won't repeat them now. And I think that we've seen in Dragon Age just how incredible a Bioware SP CRPG can be, if the developers stop trying to include an incompatible MP architecture.

Ultimately, though, from a business perspective you have to estimate the size of your potential customer base and act accordingly. I've also heard the low statistics for NWN MP that Challesus cites, and that's important, regardless of how loudly some folks may clamor for it on the forums. It's easy for a vocal minority (and I certainly grant that the MP advocates are generally vocal) to appear larger than it is if you rely on just anecdotal evidence. That's one of the things that market research is for, and it's important. It's an open question as to whether there's enough of a market for a modern MP CRPG to justify someone building one. If there is, great -- but it should be a separate game or client engine, and not shoehorned into Dragon Age.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 25 novembre 2009 - 01:25 .