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[Xilizhra]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So? Emotion is a part of speech, and when the words used are accurate, why shouldn't they continue to be?

Because they are used as I said to label someone and thereby remove deserved credibility from an argument.

He destroyed his own credibility already with his own statements. There's no credibility to be had, and the words in question are just responses to that lack, not an attempted cause of it.

That in no way equates to "aliens are less people than humans."

Certainly people less deserving of her own respect.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 février 2013 - 03:27 .

[Rawgrim]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

"I'm no fan of aliens."

That in no way equates to "aliens are less people than humans."

She did say something about humans saving humans, and not their dog. The racism is heavily implied throughout the conversations with her.

[draken-heart]

Guys/Gals. Y'know this discussion is OFF-TOPIC, right?

[Plaintiff]

I feel I should point out that I play plenty of games where there are no homosexual characters at all. It's not like I have a lot of choice in that regard, after all.

Mass Effect puts a bad taste in my mouth because the developers made the conscious decision to provide lesbian content while excluding gay men. It causes me to suspect that the lesbian content was put there, not for the sake of being progressive, but for the titillation of an implied audience of teenage boys.

[Rawgrim]

Romances in rpgs is a fairly new thing, though. I don`t remember that many games that actually have those. Even less that gives you a choice in the matter. BG2 had 4 romances. 3 were for guys 1 for females. So women got left out on that one. Then they got more and more included, and thats happening for gay people now, it seems. More options popping up in games. Its heading in the right direction, I guess.

[draken-heart]

Plaintiff wrote...

I feel I should point out that I play plenty of games where there are no homosexual characters at all. It's not like I have a lot of choice in that regard, after all.

Mass Effect puts a bad taste in my mouth because the developers made the conscious decision to provide lesbian content while excluding gay men. It causes me to suspect that the lesbian content was put there, not for the sake of being progressive, but for the titillation of an implied audience of teenage boys.

once again off-topic. This thread was supposed to be about the inclusion of NPC S/S romances to DA: I, and I tried to get it back on that track, but I can see it is too far gone.

[Plaintiff]

draken-heart wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I feel I should point out that I play plenty of games where there are no homosexual characters at all. It's not like I have a lot of choice in that regard, after all.

Mass Effect puts a bad taste in my mouth because the developers made the conscious decision to provide lesbian content while excluding gay men. It causes me to suspect that the lesbian content was put there, not for the sake of being progressive, but for the titillation of an implied audience of teenage boys.

once again off-topic. This thread was supposed to be about the inclusion of NPC S/S romances to DA: I, and I tried to get it back on that track, but I can see it is too far gone.

Yeah, yeah, I'll leave your thread alone now. The debate is going to flare up again at least twice tomorrow anyway.

[Xilizhra]

If he did, then state it. But those kinds of descripitors lend themselves to a vacuum of actual arguments and just finger-pointing and claiming that one deserves preferential treatment because of the past.

I haven't seen that here. But it lends itself to that.

If by "preferential treatment" you mean "treatment as actual equals."

I don't necessarily agree. Bu even then, no respect =/= racism.

Your definition-stretching is showing. She's not racist, that's true; she is, however, very much speciesist, even if it's a mild case.

No, what she actually said was "when things get tough, who do you think they will stand up for? Humans, or their people?" And guess what? She was right, as literally the entirety of the series proved.

No, she was not. Everyone came together for everyone else in the end.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

No, what she actually said was "when things get tough, who do you think they will stand up for? Humans, or their people?" And guess what? She was right, as literally the entirety of the series proved.

Well the humans are no better in that regard. They aren't exactly leaping to the defense of other species, and they won't, unless Shepard tells them to.

I think the perceived racism in Ashley's comments comes from an apparent blindness to humanity's faults. Her assessment of the attitudes of the other species may not be false, but it's hardly exclusive to them. Udina and Cerberus are damning evidence of humanity's self-serving nature.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If by "preferential treatment" you mean "treatment as actual equals."

I definitely do not. But when I see statements like, "scholarships given!" that states, STATES, that monorities are more likely to get it...that's preferential treatment.

Well, those scholarships only exist in the first place to rectify an issue of inequity. Prior to the creation of those scholarships, it was nigh impossible for ethnic minorities to get any scholarship at all. To this day, I think you can safely assume that any non-minority-specific scholarship is much more likely to be awarded to a straight white male than anyone else.

Further to that, most, if not all scholarships are privately funded. Provided you can afford it, nothing is stopping you from making a "white people only!" scholarship if you feel it would balance things out.

[draken-heart]

EntropicAngel wrote...

draken-heart, back on page five everyone was sitting here accusing you of being X, Y, or Z and debating your side comment about the bi companions of DA ][.

What we have here is real, productive, discussion.

Do you want to go back?

What I want is to discuss the possibility of adding S/S NPC romances. As per the title.

[lil yonce]

Plaintiff wrote...

I think the perceived racism in Ashley's comments comes from an apparent blindness to humanity's faults. Her assessment of the attitudes of the other species may not be false, but it's hardly exclusive to them. Udina and Cerberus are damning evidence of humanity's self-serving nature.

She isn't a fan of Cerberus or Udina either and she wants the Alliance to get it together and act like a real government.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 15 février 2013 - 07:33 .

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Well the humans are no better in that regard. They aren't exactly leaping to the defense of other species, and they won't, unless Shepard tells them to.

I think the perceived racism in Ashley's comments comes from an apparent blindness to humanity's faults. Her assessment of the attitudes of the other species may not be false, but it's hardly exclusive to them. Udina and Cerberus are damning evidence of humanity's self-serving nature.

Oh, definitely. But where does Ashley say otherwise? She never says humans are faultless, and in fact is quite critical in some situations (" and that's why I hate politicians/it's politics, Chief").

Well, like I said, I nuked Ashley, so I don't remember if she had much criticism for humans in particular. There were other factors in her behaviour that led me to perceive her as xenophobic; she seemed to harbour a great deal of resentment after the First Contact War, which might be understandable, as it had a lasting negative impact on her family.

Less reasonable however, was her attitude towards Liara. Ashley made snide comments behind Liara's back and on at least one occasion tried to pick a fight with her in the meeting room. But since Ashley was never really rude or aggressive towards Tali, Wrex or Garrus, I guess that might've stemmed from personal jealousy. She seemed to perceie Liara as "competition" for Shepard, even after mine told both of them to back off.

[draken-heart]

EntropicAngel wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

What I want is to discuss the possibility of adding S/S NPC romances. As per the title.

What is there to discuss? Is it not a binary question?

It is a simple question.  Would you think that adding in NPC S/S exclusive romances could be a good idea? then why or why not.

[MichaelStuart]

I admittedly don't see the point of adding same sex exclusive romances to the game when gender is just a aesthetic choice.
But I no problem with them being added.

[Plaintiff]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, those scholarships only exist in the first place to rectify an issue of inequity. Prior to the creation of those scholarships, it was nigh impossible for ethnic minorities to get any scholarship at all. To this day, I think you can safely assume that any non-minority-specific scholarship is much more likely to be awarded to a straight white male than anyone else.

Further to that, most, if not all scholarships are privately funded. Provided you can afford it, nothing is stopping you from making a "white people only!" scholarship if you feel it would balance things out.

There is no "rectification." It is just as racist to select for a minority as it is to select against minorities. The only way to fix things problems is not by trying to make a right from two wrongs, but accepting the wrong and moving on.

I don't think it's racist to acknowledge that a group of people is working from an obvious disadvantage, and to try and fix that. The majority already receives preferential treatment by default, even if it's not overtly acknowledged. So I don't believe it's unfair to give minorities the same opportunities that the majority already has. Until we can truly, finally purge the systemic bigotry from our institutions that gives preferential treatement to the majority, I think scholarships for minorities should continue to exist.

We create special laws to protect the rights of women, because without those laws, women would be unfairly disadvantaged to men. Is that also preferential treatment?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 15 février 2013 - 04:27 .

[lil yonce]

Plaintiff wrote...

Well, like I said, I nuked Ashley, so I don't remember if she had much criticism for humans in particular. There were other factors in her behaviour that led me to perceive her as xenophobic; she seemed to harbour a great deal of resentment after the First Contact War, which might be understandable, as it had a lasting negative impact on her family.

I think that was more about her grandfather being snubbed by the Alliance after surrendering and less about the Turians.

Less reasonable however, was her attitude towards Liara. Ashley made snide comments behind Liara's back and on at least one occasion tried to pick a fight with her in the meeting room. But since Ashley was never really rude or aggressive towards Tali, Wrex or Garrus, I guess that might've stemmed from personal jealousy. She seemed to perceie Liara as "competition" for Shepard, even after mine told both of them to back off.

She takes a shot a Liara, but also takes a shot at Jack, Miranda, and Tali later on if you romanced them too based on looks and perceived personality.

[Plaintiff]

Youth4Ever wrote...
She takes a shot a Liara, but also takes a shot at Jack, Miranda, and Tali later on if you romanced them too based on looks and perceived personality.

So Ashley's just kind of a **** generally? Mystery solved, I guess.