642 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

As opposed to him being a healer who MAY like your girl character?

Precisely.  There is no reason to have the gay romances be more subtle / less visible than the straight romances.  It presumes that I should be perfectly fine with using a character who flirts with me and is the opposite gender, but other people shouldn't be faced with having to use with a character who flirts with them and is the same gender.

I am only saying that it would be better to keep the gay romances off of the party list as that is currently unknown turf, where as the gay NPC romances did somewhat well for themselves.

Except Kaidan is a romantic option for M/M as well, so that turf is not entirely unknown. Whose interest are you keeping the gay romance out for? If people are not open enough to accept gay characters in their rank then that's their problem. 

I never said anything about Bi romances from previously hetero party members. just pure gay characters. there are stereotypical look for gay/lesbian people that most see.

[Thrillian]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

As opposed to him being a healer who MAY like your girl character?

I was talking about how, if you play a Male Hawke, there is the mention of Karl, but nothing there to build up to that reveal. Out of the blue.

Just like Cortez's dead husband comes out of nowhere? He just happens to have a boyfriend, as if it would be different from someone who has a girlfriend out of nowhere. Do they need to explain that also?

First impression of Anders in DA2 did nothing to endear me to him. I only use him because I need a healer and My hawke is not a mage herself.

Cortez has that dutiful soldier attitude that somewhat nullified the reveal of him being ghey. Like with Samantha, who has this cute girl impression.

So, to you, the character has to have expressed some other qualities before revealing that they are gay, in order to redeem themselves for being gay?

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

As opposed to him being a healer who MAY like your girl character?

Precisely.  There is no reason to have the gay romances be more subtle / less visible than the straight romances.  It presumes that I should be perfectly fine with using a character who flirts with me and is the opposite gender, but other people shouldn't be faced with having to use with a character who flirts with them and is the same gender.

I am only saying that it would be better to keep the gay romances off of the party list as that is currently unknown turf, where as the gay NPC romances did somewhat well for themselves.

Except Kaidan is a romantic option for M/M as well, so that turf is not entirely unknown. Whose interest are you keeping the gay romance out for? If people are not open enough to accept gay characters in their rank then that's their problem. 

I never said anything about Bi romances from previously hetero party members. just pure gay characters. there are stereotypical look for gay/lesbian people that most see.

And the best way to counter that is to keep the ghey away, so people don't have to deal with them?

[Xilizhra]

How would exclusively gay companions be recieved by the Majority/main target audience? This is where it needs to be taken in stride, build an image that makes one feel like they should have that companion before revealing "I am gay/lesbian."

But that's wholly unnecessary for anyone who's opinion is even worth considering. No one needs to be massaged into having a companion be super-impressive before the terrifying reveal of bisexuality.

[Harle Cerulean]

draken-heart wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

As opposed to him being a healer who MAY like your girl character?

I was talking about how, if you play a Male Hawke, there is the mention of Karl, but nothing there to build up to that reveal. Out of the blue.

Just like Cortez's dead husband comes out of nowhere? He just happens to have a boyfriend, as if it would be different from someone who has a girlfriend out of nowhere. Do they need to explain that also?

First impression of Anders in DA2 did nothing to endear me to him. I only use him because I need a healer and My hawke is not a mage herself.

Cortez has that dutiful soldier attitude that somewhat nullified the reveal of him being ghey. Like with Samantha, who has this cute girl impression.

And again, you are just digging yourself deeper here.  There is nothing to "nullify."  It shouldn't matter whether he'd had a husband or a wife, and if it does matter to someone, they are not worth coddling.

people complained that Anders came on too strong to them, and he had a strong fanbase that insisted that there was nothing to build up to Anders revealing the relationship to Karl.

How would exclusively gay companions be recieved by the Majority/main target audience? This is where it needs to be taken in stride, build an image that makes one feel like they should have that companion before revealing "I am gay/lesbian."

And your argument continues to be about protecting the delicate feelings of bigots.  It should be no more necessary to have delicate buildup to "I'm gay" than it should be to have delicate buildup to "I'm straight."  Bigotry doesn't go away by catering to it.

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...



people complained that Anders came on too strong to them, and he had a strong fanbase that insisted that there was nothing to build up to Anders revealing the relationship to Karl.

How would exclusively gay companions be recieved by the Majority/main target audience? This is where it needs to be taken in stride, build an image that makes one feel like they should have that companion before revealing "I am gay/lesbian."

The character doesn't need to be an NPC for them to do that.

[Nejeli]

draken-heart wrote...

Could add NPC romances of all orientations.I was referring specifically to NPC romances where the people involved are exclusively same sex.

My idea was more about how exclusive homosexual Romances are still somewhat new and it is still unsure how these romances would be accepted for companions, and thus it would be better to allow those who wanted those romances to have them without risking troubles from having homosexual companion romances.

Absolutely not. I don't want my choices limited because some people are scared of interacting with gay characters.

As for NPC romances in general, I would rather the resources be put towards party members. Don't get me wrong, I loved Steve's romance (in fact, I enjoyed it a lot more than I'm currently enjoying my m!Shep/Kaiden playthrough, because I'm almost at Thessia and so far there's nothing there in comparison) but he worked mostly because he was pretty much a non-party party member. He was on most, if not all the missions, in some compacity, and because everyone more-or-less lived on the ship, he was always around. I'm just not sure a character that 'stayed at home' would work as well.

Not to mention the DA games have a lot more 'running around' party banter than ME, and NPC love interests would miss out on that.

[draken-heart]

Nejeli wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Could add NPC romances of all orientations.I was referring specifically to NPC romances where the people involved are exclusively same sex.

My idea was more about how exclusive homosexual Romances are still somewhat new and it is still unsure how these romances would be accepted for companions, and thus it would be better to allow those who wanted those romances to have them without risking troubles from having homosexual companion romances.

Absolutely not. I don't want my choices limited because some people are scared of interacting with gay characters.

As for NPC romances in general, I would rather the resources be put towards party members. Don't get me wrong, I loved Steve's romance (in fact, I enjoyed it a lot more than I'm currently enjoying my m!Shep/Kaiden playthrough, because I'm almost at Thessia and so far there's nothing there in comparison) but he worked mostly because he was pretty much a non-party party member. He was on most, if not all the missions, in some compacity, and because everyone more-or-less lived on the ship, he was always around. I'm just not sure a character that 'stayed at home' would work as well.

Not to mention the DA games have a lot more 'running around' party banter than ME, and NPC love interests would miss out on that.

you could also say that Gay NPC romances could be used so they do not have to mess with plans for companions to cater to those fans that specifically want a gay companion.

It is either, keep "artistic" Integrity or cater to fans, and gay NPC romances is the best compromise.

Modifié par draken-heart, 15 février 2013 - 09:54 .

[SgtElias]

draken-heart wrote...

you could also say that Gay NPC romances could be used so they do not have to mess with plans for companions to cater to those fans that specifically want a gay companion.

You could say that about straight romances, too.

If gay characters (who are romancable) could free up party space, I'm sure their straight counterparts could do the same.

Modifié par SgtElias, 15 février 2013 - 09:58 .

[Harle Cerulean]

draken-heart wrote...

Nejeli wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Could add NPC romances of all orientations.I was referring specifically to NPC romances where the people involved are exclusively same sex.

My idea was more about how exclusive homosexual Romances are still somewhat new and it is still unsure how these romances would be accepted for companions, and thus it would be better to allow those who wanted those romances to have them without risking troubles from having homosexual companion romances.

Absolutely not. I don't want my choices limited because some people are scared of interacting with gay characters.

As for NPC romances in general, I would rather the resources be put towards party members. Don't get me wrong, I loved Steve's romance (in fact, I enjoyed it a lot more than I'm currently enjoying my m!Shep/Kaiden playthrough, because I'm almost at Thessia and so far there's nothing there in comparison) but he worked mostly because he was pretty much a non-party party member. He was on most, if not all the missions, in some compacity, and because everyone more-or-less lived on the ship, he was always around. I'm just not sure a character that 'stayed at home' would work as well.

Not to mention the DA games have a lot more 'running around' party banter than ME, and NPC love interests would miss out on that.

you could also say that Gay NPC romances could be used so they do not have to mess with plans for companions to cater to those fans that specifically want a gay companion.

It is either, keep "artistic" Integrity or cater to fans, and gay NPC romances is the best compromise.

Wow.  So basically, you're saying the only possible reason they include gay romances is to "cater" to fans?  And het romances somehow aren't catering?

[draken-heart]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Nejeli wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Could add NPC romances of all orientations.I was referring specifically to NPC romances where the people involved are exclusively same sex.

My idea was more about how exclusive homosexual Romances are still somewhat new and it is still unsure how these romances would be accepted for companions, and thus it would be better to allow those who wanted those romances to have them without risking troubles from having homosexual companion romances.

Absolutely not. I don't want my choices limited because some people are scared of interacting with gay characters.

As for NPC romances in general, I would rather the resources be put towards party members. Don't get me wrong, I loved Steve's romance (in fact, I enjoyed it a lot more than I'm currently enjoying my m!Shep/Kaiden playthrough, because I'm almost at Thessia and so far there's nothing there in comparison) but he worked mostly because he was pretty much a non-party party member. He was on most, if not all the missions, in some compacity, and because everyone more-or-less lived on the ship, he was always around. I'm just not sure a character that 'stayed at home' would work as well.

Not to mention the DA games have a lot more 'running around' party banter than ME, and NPC love interests would miss out on that.

you could also say that Gay NPC romances could be used so they do not have to mess with plans for companions to cater to those fans that specifically want a gay companion.

It is either, keep "artistic" Integrity or cater to fans, and gay NPC romances is the best compromise.

Wow.  So basically, you're saying the only possible reason they include gay romances is to "cater" to fans?  And het romances somehow aren't catering?

all romances are catering. It is just that the main audience of RPGs is straight male gamers who usually play male heroes.

[upsettingshorts]

Hahaha.

It's so cute when people still think BioWare isn't being inclusive because they they want to..

Also, I hate to break it to you draken-whatever, but the metrics - hard data - reveal far more people engage in the S/S romance than you're blindly assuming.

But hey, these threads always bring out the same half-dozen arguments, most of which amount to little more than coded language. So knock yourselves out folks, just remember this exact same thread will return with most of the same people, and all of the same rationales.

[Harle Cerulean]

draken-heart wrote...

Harle Cerulean wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Nejeli wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Could add NPC romances of all orientations.I was referring specifically to NPC romances where the people involved are exclusively same sex.

My idea was more about how exclusive homosexual Romances are still somewhat new and it is still unsure how these romances would be accepted for companions, and thus it would be better to allow those who wanted those romances to have them without risking troubles from having homosexual companion romances.

Absolutely not. I don't want my choices limited because some people are scared of interacting with gay characters.

As for NPC romances in general, I would rather the resources be put towards party members. Don't get me wrong, I loved Steve's romance (in fact, I enjoyed it a lot more than I'm currently enjoying my m!Shep/Kaiden playthrough, because I'm almost at Thessia and so far there's nothing there in comparison) but he worked mostly because he was pretty much a non-party party member. He was on most, if not all the missions, in some compacity, and because everyone more-or-less lived on the ship, he was always around. I'm just not sure a character that 'stayed at home' would work as well.

Not to mention the DA games have a lot more 'running around' party banter than ME, and NPC love interests would miss out on that.

you could also say that Gay NPC romances could be used so they do not have to mess with plans for companions to cater to those fans that specifically want a gay companion.

It is either, keep "artistic" Integrity or cater to fans, and gay NPC romances is the best compromise.

Wow.  So basically, you're saying the only possible reason they include gay romances is to "cater" to fans?  And het romances somehow aren't catering?

all romances are catering. It is just that the main audience of RPGs is straight male gamers who usually play male heroes.

Romances are part of storytelling.  They aren't required, but having the option can add to roleplaying opportunities.  If Bioware didn't want to include romances, any romances, they wouldn't.  It's not "catering," it's optional content they provide to give players a chance to add that to their stories if they want to.

And even if it were, why should the 'fact' that the "main audience" (a debatable 'fact', and becoming moreso all the time) is straight men mean that gay romances, or romances for straight women, for that matter, deserve to be sidelined?  We who aren't straight males pay the same amount of money for the game as straight males do; don't we deserve to have something in there for us?

Finally, not all straight men are bigoted jerks.  There are, in fact, straight men who enjoy gay and lesbian romances, and who don't give a crap if their companions are gay, straight, or bi.  These men are called "decent human beings," and the ones who don't qualify don't deserve to have things tailored just to make them more comfortable.

Modifié par Harle Cerulean, 15 février 2013 - 10:16 .

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...



all romances are catering. It is just that the main audience of RPGs is straight male gamers who usually play male heroes.

I like how you say gay romance is catering and full inclusion is not keeping artistic integrity then goes around saying that all romances are catering and we should cater to straight male males because they're the majority. It seems like you just make up argument at this point. 

[draken-heart]

This was a stupid Idea, and i should have known that asking for S/S exclusive NPC romances=being a bigot. I will just tell you all to ignore this thread while I wait for Bioware to lock it.

[Sutekh]

draken-heart wrote...

all romances are catering. It is just that the main audience of RPGs is straight male gamers who usually play male heroes.

I think you should leave that sort of concern to the people at Bioware or EA whose job is to deal with sales and demographics.

Bioware - especially in Dragon Age - has made a point to be inclusive and address all sorts of players (where the demographic is concerned). This, btw, being the main reason why so many of us love them.

To be blunt and maybe a bit rude (apologies in advance), I'd rather they stay as inclusive as they've been so far (esp. DA2). If people have problem with gay or bi characters, their problem, not mine. Catering (and do I hate this word) to bigots is never a good thing. 

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

This was a stupid Idea, and i should have known that asking for S/S exclusive NPC romances=being a bigot. I will just tell you all to ignore this thread while I wait for Bioware to lock it.

Like I said, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea if the reason behind it wasn't to keep the gay away because the "straight male gamers" don't like it. If it's simply to give more options and vary sexual orientation, I wouldn't mind it. That was why I keep telling you to make it NPC LIs instead of S/S NPC LIs.

[draken-heart]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

This was a stupid Idea, and i should have known that asking for S/S exclusive NPC romances=being a bigot. I will just tell you all to ignore this thread while I wait for Bioware to lock it.

Like I said, I wouldn't be opposed to the idea if the reason behind it wasn't to keep the gay away because the "straight male gamers" don't like it. If it's simply to give more options and vary sexual orientation, I wouldn't mind it. That was why I keep telling you to make it NPC LIs instead of S/S NPC LIs.

and there are some bigots who believe Romance should only be for party members. No one in ME3s remaining fanbase were complaining with the gay male and lesbian exclusive romance options being restricted to non-party, so why should DA fans be mad about adding gay male and lesbian options as NPCs?

[Battlebloodmage]

I'm not sure you can speak for every ME3 fanbase out there, but I dislike that practice in ME3 to put all the homosexuals as NPC, and I know many people were. There is also an ongoing debate on Star Wars TOR for only has flirts for NPC companions. In ME, there are also straight NPC like with Miranda, Jack and bisexual NPC like Kelly Chambers, so it's not like only gay NPCs are in ME3. You can be sure I would be pretty upset if the next ME game only has homosexual NPC LI and not companion.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 15 février 2013 - 10:36 .

[Iakus]

draken-heart wrote...

How would exclusively gay companions be recieved by the Majority/main target audience? This is where it needs to be taken in stride, build an image that makes one feel like they should have that companion before revealing "I am gay/lesbian."

::shrug::

How are exclusively straight companions received?  How are nonromanceable companions received?  They are what they are.

Only problem I have is when they are made "they are what I are"

[SgtElias]

draken-heart wrote...

No one in ME3s remaining fanbase were complaining with the gay male and lesbian exclusive romance options being restricted to non-party

. . . except that there were complaints. Like some in the F/F thread that this entire can of worms was opened in, specifically pointing out that they really didn't like how ME3 gay and lesbian romances were done, and why.

[Nejeli]

draken-heart wrote...

you could also say that Gay NPC romances could be used so they do not have to mess with plans for companions to cater to those fans that specifically want a gay companion.

It is either, keep "artistic" Integrity or cater to fans, and gay NPC romances is the best compromise.

Why does it have to be either/or? Are you suggesting that gay romances immediately ruin a game's artistic integrity unless they're with characters you can essentially ignore?

And it's not a compromise. It's punishing some players because others are uncomfortable, especially in these games where party banter is such an important component. If players are so upset at the idea of having to interact with, or use, gay characters, there are literally hundreds of other games they can pick up where it's not an issue.

[draken-heart]

Nejeli wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

you could also say that Gay NPC romances could be used so they do not have to mess with plans for companions to cater to those fans that specifically want a gay companion.

It is either, keep "artistic" Integrity or cater to fans, and gay NPC romances is the best compromise.

Why does it have to be either/or? Are you suggesting that gay romances immediately ruin a game's artistic integrity unless they're with characters you can essentially ignore?

And it's not a compromise. It's punishing some players because others are uncomfortable, especially in these games where party banter is such an important component. If players are so upset at the idea of having to interact with, or use, gay characters, there are literally hundreds of other games they can pick up where it's not an issue.

Anders again, I would not use him if I did not need a healer. Nothing memeroable other than the "Blow up chantry, Free mages" thing he had going.

frankly the Banters are not that important in the overall scheme of things, unless you want to hear your party members talking, and they rarely said anything related to any romance in those banters in DA:O or DA2 anyways.

Modifié par draken-heart, 15 février 2013 - 10:42 .

[jillabender]

With respect, draken-heart, I'm don't quite understand what your reasoning is for wanting exclusively gay romances to be restricted to non-companion NPCs. I just have difficulty understanding why someone who states that they don't have a problem with gay and lesbian content as such would feel so strongly about not wanting that content to involve companion characters.

Modifié par jillabender, 15 février 2013 - 10:53 .

[Battlebloodmage]

Just having a companion next to you would bring a sense of closeness. The time you spend with your companions and getting to know them through their conversation with the others expand their personality and give them dimensions. These are the kinds of things you can't get with NPC.