642 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Wolvenrick wrote...

I don't know if I confused it. I meant if him/ her have the choices but that NPC is a specific sexually. So each sexual preference has their own options. Example my proganist is straight so my LI would be the same, but at the same time you can have the option of your LI to be of any class and race.

He wants to exclude s/s LIs to NPCs because he doesn't want gay companions. The issue people have with him wasn't the inclusion of NPC LI for more sexual orientations, the issue is he wants the S/S LIs to be the NPC specifically because people are not comfortable with S/S companion.

S/S LIs, NPC or otherwise (Preferrably NPC) Because I personally feel the all bi option confused and scared some people because their favorite apostate/runaway mage hit on their male PCs too soon does not constitute me hating S/S LIs, just the ALL BI LI set up in DA2. Would have been okay if it was the other way around with Anders in that department (no mention of Karl with Male Hawke until Later, and mentioning "yes, I been with a man before" up front with Fem!Hawke). 

[sarakirrer]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Wrong, I don't want to do the same, I was just using it as an example to show the unfairness of the situation. People are just ususally care about what they want and screw-everyone-else attitude. I don't want the NPC if it's exclusive to any sexual orientation.

then the only way would be to have Bi NPCs and use either all bi companions or gay/straight companions.

I wouldn't mind. I just want gay characters to be treated equal, not special. The same goes to straight characters.

I agree with this. In an ideal world, we would have 2 straight, 2 m/m, 2 f/f, and 2 bisexual romances--everyone who wants to pursue romance should have equal romance options. I know BioWare's current resources don't allow that, and that bisexuality for everyone is the compromise, but I'm one of those people that's weirded out about everyone being Hawke-sexual and I wish that BioWare DID have the resources to expand their romance options to represent everyone equally.

I wouldn't be opposed to having NPC romances, but only if the companions still had equal representation of each sexuality. As others have pointed out, companions get vastly more development and dialogue than NPCs, just because of the virtue of them being in your party whenever you want them. It isn't the same as someone who is back at home base because you won't be able to take them with you during quests or hear their banter as you go around town, and as such they'll have much less content.

That's not to say that I wouldn't romance an NPC--I would, given that they were the type of character I wanted to romance. But "downgrading" ONLY same sex romance options to NPCs while keeping straight romances as companions results in unequal representation, which I believe is wrong.

And, since I haven't seen it before on this thread, here is a post from David Gaider regarding why BioWare does not "cater" to the "straight male demographic."

[draken-heart]

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

Modifié par draken-heart, 16 février 2013 - 12:42 .

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Wolvenrick wrote...

I don't know if I confused it. I meant if him/ her have the choices but that NPC is a specific sexually. So each sexual preference has their own options. Example my proganist is straight so my LI would be the same, but at the same time you can have the option of your LI to be of any class and race.

He wants to exclude s/s LIs to NPCs because he doesn't want gay companions. The issue people have with him wasn't the inclusion of NPC LI for more sexual orientations, the issue is he wants the S/S LIs to be the NPC specifically because people are not comfortable with S/S companion.

S/S LIs, NPC or otherwise (Preferrably NPC) Because I personally feel the all bi option confused and scared some people because their favorite apostate/runaway mage hit on their male PCs too soon does not constitute me hating S/S LIs, just the ALL BI LI set up in DA2. Would have been okay if it was the other way around with Anders in that department (no mention of Karl with Male Hawke until Later, and mentioning "yes, I been with a man before" up front with Fem!Hawke). 

I was just restating various statements you said throughout this thread. David Gaider has already stated that companions wouldn't initiate the flirting anymore. It just wasn't worth the trouble so just stop using Anders as a basic for your argument. I don't think it's wise to say to a girl you've been with a guy before during your first meeting. It just makes more sense to say that to a male Hawke to show that he's interested in guys.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 16 février 2013 - 12:44 .

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

The common complain was they want more options, some just wasn't feeling Zevran and Lelianna.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 16 février 2013 - 01:00 .

[draken-heart]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

The common complain was they want more options, some just wasn't feeling Zevran and Morriganv Leliana.

fixed.

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

The common complain was they want more options, some just wasn't feeling Zevran and Morriganv Leliana.

fixed.

ok, don't see the point in fixing a typo but whatever. 

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 16 février 2013 - 12:48 .

[draken-heart]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

The common complain was they want more options, some just wasn't feeling Zevran and Morriganv Leliana.

fixed.

ok, don't see the point in fixing a typo but whatever. 

it was just the rogues in DA:O that were bi.

[sarakirrer]

draken-heart wrote...
S/S LIs, NPC or otherwise (Preferrably NPC) Because I personally feel the all bi option confused and scared some people because their favorite apostate/runaway mage hit on their male PCs too soon does not constitute me hating S/S LIs, just the ALL BI LI set up in DA2. Would have been okay if it was the other way around with Anders in that department (no mention of Karl with Male Hawke until Later, and mentioning "yes, I been with a man before" up front with Fem!Hawke). 

You're right--it did confuse and scare some people. But should that initial reaction of discomfort "trump" the many players (female, male, straight, gay, and bisexual) that enjoyed Anders confiding in their male Hawke about his relationship with Karl? 

I believe it shouldn't, and that BioWare should continue to add these moments. Not only because I believe gay and bisexual players have the right to see people that are like them in games, but also because I believe that, for some people who are INITIALLY uncomfortable with Anders confiding in them, Anders' character arc might dispel some or all of that discomfort. Anders' character might encourage that person, who began the game feeling uncomfortable with people who are gay or bisexual, to evolve and see Anders not as a "gay companion" (something wrong, scary, or different) as just a "companion," equal to and deserving of respect just like the others Hawke recruited in DA2.

I believe that, for some people, video games are an important medium that can move them just like art or music. If even a few people's intolerances are dispelled because they played a game with a gay or bisexual character in it, I believe that character's inclusion is worthwhile.

...Of course, I believe it would be worthwhile even if it DIDN'T change even a single person's attitude, because I do also believe that gay and bisexual people deserve equal representation in video games.

All right, all right. I'm done. /soapbox.

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

The common complain was they want more options, some just wasn't feeling Zevran and Morriganv Leliana.

fixed.

ok, don't see the point in fixing a typo but whatever. 

it was just the rogues in DA:O that were bi.

I know, I meant to write Lelianna, and it was a mistake when I wrote that. 
I just don't see the point in fixing it. 

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 16 février 2013 - 12:52 .

[Thrillian]

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

I see it more as Bioware realizing that some of their fan base was getting the short end of the stick and wanting to correct that in a way that fit their financial constraints.

[catharsisboo]

draken-heart wrote...
Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

Oh good. I see we've moved to the "catering" part of the argument. I fail to see how having an equal amount of LIs qualifies as catering.

You know, I've tried to see this from your perspective, but I'm finding it impossible. Your position on the issue keeps changing from being more inclusive to being less inclusive to denying you're either.

[draken-heart]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

I see it more as Bioware realizing that some of their fan base was getting the short end of the stick and wanting to correct that in a way that fit their financial constraints.

which is why I expect them to do it again, I won't be happy but I did not see any problems with taling about the idea of adding S/S NPC Romances (Never specified in exclusion/inclusion with S/S Party member, and was actually joking with those reasons in the first post before editing it.

[sarakirrer]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

The common complain was they want more options, some just wasn't feeling Zevran and Morrigan.

Right. Not all gay men (or people that enjoy playing gay men) are going to be attracted to Zevran, and not all gay women (or people that enjoy playing them) are going to be attracted to Leiliana. I enjoy playing both of those character types, sometimes, but I didn't really enjoy Leiliana's character. That would leave a person who enjoys playing a gay female Warden with no other options.

I believe that those players should have another option who is a companion, not another option who is an NPC, because straight players were given other companion romance options. I think that people who want to romance companions of the same sex should have the same options as people who want to romance companions of the opposite sex. And I don't believe that the inclusion of same sex romance options takes away from the already existing opposite sex romance options.

About multiplayer--I see no problem with it, ASSUMING that it doesn't leech resources from the single player campaign and content surrounding your companions. I'm not a game dev, and I don't know how their budget works, so far be it from me to assume that even if they cut multiplayer development right now, that unused money would automatically go into the singleplayer campaign (maybe it would have gone into marketing, instead). If anyone knows that to be the case for sure, feel free to correct me.

[Thrillian]

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

I see it more as Bioware realizing that some of their fan base was getting the short end of the stick and wanting to correct that in a way that fit their financial constraints.

which is why I expect them to do it again, I won't be happy but I did not see any problems with taling about the idea of adding S/S NPC Romances (Never specified in exclusion/inclusion with S/S Party member, and was actually joking with those reasons in the first post before editing it.

Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?  I'm guessing the answer is yes to that one.

Also to be totally honest, I have a selfish reason for wanting all of the LI's to be hero-sexual (because they weren't all bi in DA2 in a single playthrough).  I am a straight woman, and I always play a straight woman (I don't think I'm a very good roleplayer), so what if I hate the only hetero male LI but like the ****** male LI?  Well, I guess I'm SOL.  Which is also how I imagine many gay players have felt over the years, and that really bothers me.  The fact that there are people out there who can't enjoy the game to the same degree that I can just because their sexuality wasn't taken into consideration, bothers me.

[sarakirrer]

Thrillho_82 wrote...
Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?  I'm guessing the answer is yes to that one.

While I don't know about draken-heart's preference in particular, I think this is definitely a prevalent attitude on the forums. Isabela wasn't nearly as negatively received as Anders, and she makes even more forward sexual advances on both the male and the female PC (I believe she even grabs the male PC's crotch at one point). I really like Isabela, but the fact that Anders' sexuality is the target of so much ire and Isabela's sexuality is hardly ever mentioned gives weight to your point.

Modifié par sarakirrer, 16 février 2013 - 01:37 .

[draken-heart]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

I see it more as Bioware realizing that some of their fan base was getting the short end of the stick and wanting to correct that in a way that fit their financial constraints.

which is why I expect them to do it again, I won't be happy but I did not see any problems with taling about the idea of adding S/S NPC Romances (Never specified in exclusion/inclusion with S/S Party member, and was actually joking with those reasons in the first post before editing it.

Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?

Awakening had no mention of any M/M with Anders. Isabela I had no problem being bi, because she was Bi in origins. As long as as the character was the same, probably. and the "equality" in my eyes was catering to people who did not like what they got in origins.

[Battlebloodmage]

They have every right to have the same amount of choices as anyone else.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 16 février 2013 - 02:04 .

[Thrillian]

sarakirrer wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...
Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?  I'm guessing the answer is yes to that one.

While I don't know about draken-heart's preference in particular, I think this is definitely a prevalent attitude on the forums. Isabela wasn't nearly as negatively received as Anders, and she makes even more forward sexual advances on both the male and the female PC (I believe she even grabs the male PC's crotch at one point). I really like Isabela, but the fact that Anders' sexuality is the target of so much ire and Isabela's sexuality is hardly ever mentioned gives weight to your point.

While I agree with you about the forums in general, I think my point applies (judging by his posts in this thread) to draken, in that he seems to really dislike Anders specifically because Anders mentions his relationship with Karl right away and yet clearly very much enjoys Traynor's romance from ME3.  Just seems like an incredible double standard to me.

[draken-heart]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

They have already right to have the same amount of choices as anyone else.

and they cannot have equality with the origins romance set up?

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

They have already right to have the same amount of choices as anyone else.

and they cannot have equality with the origins romance set up?

Nope, they only have one option while the straight players have 2. If they don't like their option, it's tough luck. 

[catharsisboo]

draken-heart wrote...

Awakening had no mention of any M/M with Anders. Isabela I had no problem being bi, because she was Bi in origins. As long as as the character was the same, probably. and the "equality" in my eyes was catering to people who did not like what they got in origins.

1) Gaider has commented on Anders' sexuality on his tumblr here.

He did not suddenly become bisexual in DA2 compared to Awakening. I wrote him in Awakening. . . . I found it a little odd when people suggested that him commenting on women but not men meant he was straight. Which is fine, perception being what it is, but it certainly wasn’t avoided. It wasn’t like it was anywhere but my head, anyhow. But that’s why I didn’t consider it a big deal when it came up as a possibility for DA2. As far as I was concerned, nothing about that side of him had even been established.

2) Being equal isn't catering.

Modifié par catharsisboo, 16 février 2013 - 02:07 .

[Thrillian]

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

I see it more as Bioware realizing that some of their fan base was getting the short end of the stick and wanting to correct that in a way that fit their financial constraints.

which is why I expect them to do it again, I won't be happy but I did not see any problems with taling about the idea of adding S/S NPC Romances (Never specified in exclusion/inclusion with S/S Party member, and was actually joking with those reasons in the first post before editing it.

Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?

Awakening had no mention of any M/M with Anders. Isabela I had no problem being bi, because she was Bi in origins. As long as as the character was the same, probably. and the "equality" in my eyes was catering to people who did not like what they got in origins.

Again I don't see why this is an issue.  At no point in Awakening did Anders clearly state that he only had interest in women.  And to address the bolded, so what?   I don't see how being inclusive is equal to catering, but even if it was, so what? What is the problem?  If I happened to be one of the people who did not like what I got in Origins, I would be very happy to be "catered" to.  Maybe you should give empathy a chance.

[draken-heart]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...
Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?  I'm guessing the answer is yes to that one.

While I don't know about draken-heart's preference in particular, I think this is definitely a prevalent attitude on the forums. Isabela wasn't nearly as negatively received as Anders, and she makes even more forward sexual advances on both the male and the female PC (I believe she even grabs the male PC's crotch at one point). I really like Isabela, but the fact that Anders' sexuality is the target of so much ire and Isabela's sexuality is hardly ever mentioned gives weight to your point.

While I agree with you about the forums in general, I think my point applies (judging by his posts in this thread) to draken, in that he seems to really dislike Anders specifically because Anders mentions his relationship with Karl right away and yet clearly very much enjoys Traynor's romance from ME3.  Just seems like an incredible double standard to me.

I think the Anders/Isabela thing was more because Isabela was expected to be BI, while Anders had no M/M in Awakening. That shocked more than caused ire.

[draken-heart]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

I see it more as Bioware realizing that some of their fan base was getting the short end of the stick and wanting to correct that in a way that fit their financial constraints.

which is why I expect them to do it again, I won't be happy but I did not see any problems with taling about the idea of adding S/S NPC Romances (Never specified in exclusion/inclusion with S/S Party member, and was actually joking with those reasons in the first post before editing it.

Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?

Awakening had no mention of any M/M with Anders. Isabela I had no problem being bi, because she was Bi in origins. As long as as the character was the same, probably. and the "equality" in my eyes was catering to people who did not like what they got in origins.

Again I don't see why this is an issue.  At no point in Awakening did Anders clearly state that he only had interest in women.  And to address the bolded, so what?   I don't see how being inclusive is equal to catering, but even if it was, so what? What is the problem?  If I happened to be one of the people who did not like what I got in Origins, I would be very happy to be "catered" to.  Maybe you should give empathy a chance.

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.