642 réponses à ce sujet

[catharsisboo]

draken-heart wrote...

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.

I'm pretty sure people wanted Morrigan and Alistair for S/S, not their classes. 

[draken-heart]

catharsisboo wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.

I'm pretty sure people wanted Morrigan and Alistair for S/S, not their classes. 

and they ended up getting a male warrior and a female mage. they couldn't get the people they wanted, so the catered to them in a way by providing their classes for S/S.

Modifié par draken-heart, 16 février 2013 - 02:11 .

[Thrillian]

draken-heart wrote...

catharsisboo wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.

I'm pretty sure people wanted Morrigan and Alistair for S/S, not their classes. 

and they ended up getting a male warrior and a female mage. they couldn't get the people they wanted, so the catered to them in a way by providing their classes for S/S.

No they decided to be fair and make every LI available to everyone regardless of their sexuality.  It had nothing to do with male warrior or female mage.

[catharsisboo]

draken-heart wrote...

catharsisboo wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.

I'm pretty sure people wanted Morrigan and Alistair for S/S, not their classes. 

and they ended up getting a male warrior and a female mage

You're drawing a very weird comparison here. Because Fenris and Merrill happen to be the same classes as the options S/S players didn't get the first time around, that's catering? I'm pretty sure that was just how it ended up working out. That's like saying Isabela was brought back and made a LI because people loved romancing a female rogue (Leliana). These characters are nothing alike, save sharing a similar class.

[sarakirrer]

draken-heart wrote...

Awakening had no mention of any M/M with Anders. Isabela I had no problem being bi, because she was Bi in origins. As long as as the character was the same, probably. and the "equality" in my eyes was catering to people who did not like what they got in origins.

David Gaider has mentioned that he had envisioned Anders as bisexual from the beginning of Awakening. Just because a person doesn't mention being attracted to a person of the opposite sex doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual. Maybe Anders wasn't attracted to any of the male companions in Awakening (he really didn't like Nate from the beginning, and he didn't get along with Oghren, either). We're really used to having everyone be player-sexual, but it's possible that Anders just wasn't attracted to the male Warden, either. It's possible that he didn't flirt with any of the men around him because he simply wasn't attracted to any of the men around him.

[Battlebloodmage]

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

I see it more as Bioware realizing that some of their fan base was getting the short end of the stick and wanting to correct that in a way that fit their financial constraints.

which is why I expect them to do it again, I won't be happy but I did not see any problems with taling about the idea of adding S/S NPC Romances (Never specified in exclusion/inclusion with S/S Party member, and was actually joking with those reasons in the first post before editing it.

Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?

Awakening had no mention of any M/M with Anders. Isabela I had no problem being bi, because she was Bi in origins. As long as as the character was the same, probably. and the "equality" in my eyes was catering to people who did not like what they got in origins.

Again I don't see why this is an issue.  At no point in Awakening did Anders clearly state that he only had interest in women.  And to address the bolded, so what?   I don't see how being inclusive is equal to catering, but even if it was, so what? What is the problem?  If I happened to be one of the people who did not like what I got in Origins, I would be very happy to be "catered" to.  Maybe you should give empathy a chance.

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.

The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

[Plaintiff]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

People wanted violence and Bioware included violence. Thus, catering.

[catharsisboo]

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Awakening had no mention of any M/M with Anders. Isabela I had no problem being bi, because she was Bi in origins. As long as as the character was the same, probably. and the "equality" in my eyes was catering to people who did not like what they got in origins.

David Gaider has mentioned that he had envisioned Anders as bisexual from the beginning of Awakening. Just because a person doesn't mention being attracted to a person of the opposite sex doesn't mean that they aren't bisexual. Maybe Anders wasn't attracted to any of the male companions in Awakening (he really didn't like Nate from the beginning, and he didn't get along with Oghren, either). We're really used to having everyone be player-sexual, but it's possible that Anders just wasn't attracted to the male Warden, either. It's possible that he didn't flirt with any of the men around him because he simply wasn't attracted to any of the men around him.

This, and he sounds a bit flirty in this banter with Nate, doesn't he? "Not when I'm naked, I don't~" Anders didn't seem 100% straight to me when I played Awakening.

[draken-heart]

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

[Thrillian]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

@sarakirrer How about a casual romance/One night stand then, from the NPC, or better yet, no multiplayer?

Plus, the all bi-LI thing felt more like catering to the people who complained about not getting alistair (Male warrior) and Morrigan (Female mage) as LI for same sex characters.

I see it more as Bioware realizing that some of their fan base was getting the short end of the stick and wanting to correct that in a way that fit their financial constraints.

which is why I expect them to do it again, I won't be happy but I did not see any problems with taling about the idea of adding S/S NPC Romances (Never specified in exclusion/inclusion with S/S Party member, and was actually joking with those reasons in the first post before editing it.

Why? Why would you be unhappy about equality? Why does it bother you that Anders states that he a relationship with Karl? Would it bother you less if Anders and Karl were women?

Awakening had no mention of any M/M with Anders. Isabela I had no problem being bi, because she was Bi in origins. As long as as the character was the same, probably. and the "equality" in my eyes was catering to people who did not like what they got in origins.

Again I don't see why this is an issue.  At no point in Awakening did Anders clearly state that he only had interest in women.  And to address the bolded, so what?   I don't see how being inclusive is equal to catering, but even if it was, so what? What is the problem?  If I happened to be one of the people who did not like what I got in Origins, I would be very happy to be "catered" to.  Maybe you should give empathy a chance.

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.

The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

Oh okay, now I get it!

[catharsisboo]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

It's just that, if you are arguing for s/s NPCs out of a sense of equality, you're not going about it the best way imo. Insisting that an equal amount of LIs for o/s and s/s is somehow "catering" for gay players doesn't sound very s/s-positive.

[draken-heart]

catharsisboo wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

It's just that, if you are arguing for s/s NPCs out of a sense of equality, you're not going about it the best way imo. Insisting that an equal amount of LIs for o/s and s/s is somehow "catering" for gay players doesn't sound very s/s-positive.

just catering to the people whose complaining=the all bi option. not all gay.

[SgtElias]

catharsisboo wrote...

 Anders didn't seem 100% straight to me when I played Awakening.

Me, neither. I didn't have proof of any sort, but I always thought he was bisexual. And I assumed he had been flirting with Nathaniel.

Mostly because that pleased me, but you know.

[sarakirrer]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.

I don't think it had anything to do with wanting those specific classes, and I doubt it even had anything to do with specific characters. What it ultimately comes down to is this: gay and lesbian people deserve to have equal representation to straight people and should able to romance the same number of companions, and those companions should be as fleshed out as straight companions. Because BioWare does not have the resources to make 2 straight, 2 m/m, 2 f/f, and 2 bisexual love interests, the way that they addressed this inequality was to make every companion available to every Hawke.

[catharsisboo]

draken-heart wrote...

catharsisboo wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

It's just that, if you are arguing for s/s NPCs out of a sense of equality, you're not going about it the best way imo. Insisting that an equal amount of LIs for o/s and s/s is somehow "catering" for gay players doesn't sound very s/s-positive.

just catering to the people whose complaining=the all bi option. not all gay.

I'm still waiting for an explaination as to how it's catering when it's merely providing an equal number options. :/

[catharsisboo]

SgtElias wrote...

catharsisboo wrote...

 Anders didn't seem 100% straight to me when I played Awakening.

Me, neither. I didn't have proof of any sort, but I always thought he was bisexual. And I assumed he had been flirting with Nathaniel.

Mostly because that pleased me, but you know.

Nanders! 

[draken-heart]

sarakirrer wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

people wanted a female mage and male warrior for S/S. Bioware could not do that without doing the all Bi thing. Thus, catering.

I don't think it had anything to do with wanting those specific classes, and I doubt it even had anything to do with specific characters. What it ultimately comes down to is this: gay and lesbian people deserve to have equal representation to straight people and should able to romance the same number of companions, and those companions should be as fleshed out as straight companions. Because BioWare does not have the resources to make 2 straight, 2 m/m, 2 f/f, and 2 bisexual love interests, the way that they addressed this inequality was to make every companion available to every Hawke.

y'know I am not talking about 2M/M and 2F/F. could easily do the bi NPCs and have 1 straight and one gay companion per gender. but now I will say. Talk about S/S romances in DA:I in general.

[Plaintiff]

SgtElias wrote...

catharsisboo wrote...

 Anders didn't seem 100% straight to me when I played Awakening.

Me, neither. I didn't have proof of any sort, but I always thought he was bisexual. And I assumed he had been flirting with Nathaniel.

Mostly because that pleased me, but you know.

It's a pretty common interpretation. I mean, how often in media or real life do we see purely-heterosexual men making sexually suggestive comments to each other?

Not that there'd be anything wrong with that if it did happen, but the stigma associated with being gay means it's not very likely.

On an unrelated note: every time I click on ths thread, I get an error message due to "extreme load" and have to refresh. It must be the busiest one on the forum.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 février 2013 - 02:28 .

[Thrillian]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

Honestly, your previous posts do not reflect that you want to "provide a sense of companionship for homosexual characters that do not battle with them".  They more say "If a male character is homosexual, they had better display some redeeming personality traits before revealing they are gay, or I will not use them in my party. But I'm totally okay with lesbians.  Or better yet, just make all of the gays non companions to keep them out of the way, in case people are uncomfortable with them."

That is what I got from your posts. Please try to iterate true intentions if I am wrong.

[draken-heart]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

Honestly, your previous posts do not reflect that you want to "provide a sense of companionship for homosexual characters that do not battle with them".  They more say "If a male character is homosexual, they had better display some redeeming personality traits before revealing they are gay, or I will not use them in my party. But I'm totally okay with lesbians.  Or better yet, just make all of the gays non companions to keep them out of the way, in case people are uncomfortable with them."

That is what I got from your posts. Please try to iterate true intentions if I am wrong.

I guess I just wanted to makea thread that talked about NPC S/S romances. No intention other than that. OTher posts no longer have meaning now that that is out of the way.

[sarakirrer]

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

I appreciate that you believe that you suggested a gay-positive solution. However, the reason why I was debating it is that I don't believe "demoting" gay love interests to NPCs rather than companions IS a gay-positive soliton. Like I said before, I don't believe that making all the companions bisexual was the IDEAL solution to the problem of inequality in DA:O; however, it is the best that BioWare could do to solve the problem of inequality with the limited resources they have.

The reason why demoting gay love interests to NPCs doesn't actually rectify the inequality situation has to do with the fact that NPCs have less content than companions. Therefore, gay players would still not be getting equal representation to straight players.

I don't hate this thread, and I hope it didn't come across that way because I disagree with the solution you proposed. I appreciate that you personally don't feel uncomfortable with same sex romance options; however, the solution that you proposed isn't very gay-positive.

Right now, what I'm understanding is that your priority when developing a solution is to make the majority of gamers feel comfortable with the romances in DA:I. However, my priority when developing a solution is to ensure that gay and straight people are represented equally, even if that makes people uncomfortable.

[draken-heart]

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

I appreciate that you believe that you suggested a gay-positive solution. However, the reason why I was debating it is that I don't believe "demoting" gay love interests to NPCs rather than companions IS a gay-positive soliton. Like I said before, I don't believe that making all the companions bisexual was the IDEAL solution to the problem of inequality in DA:O; however, it is the best that BioWare could do to solve the problem of inequality with the limited resources they have.

The reason why demoting gay love interests to NPCs doesn't actually rectify the inequality situation has to do with the fact that NPCs have less content than companions. Therefore, gay players would still not be getting equal representation to straight players.

I don't hate this thread, and I hope it didn't come across that way because I disagree with the solution you proposed. I appreciate that you personally don't feel uncomfortable with same sex romance options; however, the solution that you proposed isn't very gay-positive.

Right now, what I'm understanding is that your priority when developing a solution is to make the majority of gamers feel comfortable with the romances in DA:I. However, my priority when developing a solution is to ensure that gay and straight people are represented equally, even if that makes people uncomfortable.

fine, NEW TOPIC, discuss S/S romances in general.

[Plaintiff]

catharsisboo wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

catharsisboo wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

It's just that, if you are arguing for s/s NPCs out of a sense of equality, you're not going about it the best way imo. Insisting that an equal amount of LIs for o/s and s/s is somehow "catering" for gay players doesn't sound very s/s-positive.

just catering to the people whose complaining=the all bi option. not all gay.

I'm still waiting for an explaination as to how it's catering when it's merely providing an equal number options. :/

Well, it is catering. By definition, every time you provide a product specifically intended for a particular group, you are "catering" to somebody. If you make kilts, you are catering to people who would like to wear kilts. If you provide special learning services for children with disabilities, you are catering to children with disabilities, and also their parents.

But there's nothing wrong with catering. Using the term to illegitimise the same-sex content in Bioware games is silly. Every single aspect of Dragon Age is catering to somebody. The fantasy setting is catering to fantasy fans, the class system is catering to people who like classes, the social dynamics are catering to people who like social dynamics. I could go on forever.

[sarakirrer]

Plaintiff wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

catharsisboo wrote...

 Anders didn't seem 100% straight to me when I played Awakening.

Me, neither. I didn't have proof of any sort, but I always thought he was bisexual. And I assumed he had been flirting with Nathaniel.

Mostly because that pleased me, but you know.

It's a pretty common interpretation. I mean, how often in media or real life do we see purely-heterosexual men making sexually suggestive comments to each other?

Not that there'd be anything wrong with that if it did happen, but the stigma associated with being gay means it's not very likely.

On an unrelated note: every time I click on ths thread, I get an error message due to "extreme load" and have to refresh. It must be the busiest one on the forum.

How did I miss this happening In Awakening!?! Anders and Nathaniel were my favorite characters, I would have enjoyed some provocative banter between the two of them.

[Thrillian]

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

I appreciate that you believe that you suggested a gay-positive solution. However, the reason why I was debating it is that I don't believe "demoting" gay love interests to NPCs rather than companions IS a gay-positive soliton. Like I said before, I don't believe that making all the companions bisexual was the IDEAL solution to the problem of inequality in DA:O; however, it is the best that BioWare could do to solve the problem of inequality with the limited resources they have.

The reason why demoting gay love interests to NPCs doesn't actually rectify the inequality situation has to do with the fact that NPCs have less content than companions. Therefore, gay players would still not be getting equal representation to straight players.

I don't hate this thread, and I hope it didn't come across that way because I disagree with the solution you proposed. I appreciate that you personally don't feel uncomfortable with same sex romance options; however, the solution that you proposed isn't very gay-positive.

Right now, what I'm understanding is that your priority when developing a solution is to make the majority of gamers feel comfortable with the romances in DA:I. However, my priority when developing a solution is to ensure that gay and straight people are represented equally, even if that makes people uncomfortable.

I enjoyed all of your post, but the bolded part is fantastic!