642 réponses à ce sujet

[draken-heart]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...
The only people who are okay to cater to are straight male gamers.

forget it. you all hat this thread because it has that "I want NPC S/S romances because I think that gay companions are eww." when it is really "I want S/S NPC romance to 1) provide a sense of Companionship for Homosexual characters that do not battle with them and 2) The all bi was not the answer to the equality problem."

I appreciate that you believe that you suggested a gay-positive solution. However, the reason why I was debating it is that I don't believe "demoting" gay love interests to NPCs rather than companions IS a gay-positive soliton. Like I said before, I don't believe that making all the companions bisexual was the IDEAL solution to the problem of inequality in DA:O; however, it is the best that BioWare could do to solve the problem of inequality with the limited resources they have.

The reason why demoting gay love interests to NPCs doesn't actually rectify the inequality situation has to do with the fact that NPCs have less content than companions. Therefore, gay players would still not be getting equal representation to straight players.

I don't hate this thread, and I hope it didn't come across that way because I disagree with the solution you proposed. I appreciate that you personally don't feel uncomfortable with same sex romance options; however, the solution that you proposed isn't very gay-positive.

Right now, what I'm understanding is that your priority when developing a solution is to make the majority of gamers feel comfortable with the romances in DA:I. However, my priority when developing a solution is to ensure that gay and straight people are represented equally, even if that makes people uncomfortable.

I enjoyed all of your post, but the bolded part is fantastic!

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

there is also the thing with Resources (Money&time) being set for certain things. More resources set up for trying to make Gay/Lesbian romance companions (Dialogue, scenes, banter, alll that) the less that can be devoted to the things that make the game the game, story and combat.

Modifié par draken-heart, 16 février 2013 - 02:48 .

[sarakirrer]

Plaintiff wrote...
But there's nothing wrong with catering. Using the term to illegitimise the same-sex content in Bioware games is silly. Every single aspect of Dragon Age is catering to somebody. The fantasy setting is catering to fantasy fans, the class system is catering to people who like classes, the social dynamics are catering to people who like social dynamics. I could go on forever.

I agree with this. But I don't know if I necessarily believe that making the romances in DA:2 was "catering" to gay players. To me, catering implies ministering to specific needs/wants of a group. But the romances in DA:2 were available, relatively unchanged, to Hawkes of either sex. So, really, the romances in DA:2 catered to BOTH straight AND gay players... I feel like that's just inclusivity. {smilie}

[xAmilli0n]

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

If a person doesn't buy a game because of one line with a potentially gay character, there is something wrong with the player, not the game.

[draken-heart]

xAmilli0n wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

If a person doesn't buy a game because of one line with a potentially gay character, there is something wrong with the player, not the game.

that can spread and cause less money to go to Bioware for the next game, possibly ending the franchise.

[Xilizhra]

draken-heart wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

If a person doesn't buy a game because of one line with a potentially gay character, there is something wrong with the player, not the game.

that can spread and cause less money to go to Bioware for the next game, possibly ending the franchise.

If it didn't happen already with DA2, it won't happen now.

[draken-heart]

Xilizhra wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

If a person doesn't buy a game because of one line with a potentially gay character, there is something wrong with the player, not the game.

that can spread and cause less money to go to Bioware for the next game, possibly ending the franchise.

If it didn't happen already with DA2, it won't happen now.

even though I liked DA2, that game was bad.

[sarakirrer]

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

That is a legitimate concern, definitely. I would really hate if we didn't get another DA game because fans who were uncomfortable with the same sex romance content stopped buying the games. (Not only because I'd be sad that we didn't get another DA game, but because of what that outcome would imply about the majority of DA fans.)

However, I really hope that people will become more respectful of gay or bisexual content, especially when it comes to gay men being represented in video games. And, honestly, I hope and believe that the amount of people who support and/or respect the inclusion of same sex romance content will be able to support BioWare in the future.

Modifié par sarakirrer, 16 février 2013 - 02:53 .

[Plaintiff]

sarakirrer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

SgtElias wrote...

catharsisboo wrote...

 Anders didn't seem 100% straight to me when I played Awakening.

Me, neither. I didn't have proof of any sort, but I always thought he was bisexual. And I assumed he had been flirting with Nathaniel.

Mostly because that pleased me, but you know.

It's a pretty common interpretation. I mean, how often in media or real life do we see purely-heterosexual men making sexually suggestive comments to each other?

Not that there'd be anything wrong with that if it did happen, but the stigma associated with being gay means it's not very likely.

On an unrelated note: every time I click on ths thread, I get an error message due to "extreme load" and have to refresh. It must be the busiest one on the forum.

How did I miss this happening In Awakening!?! Anders and Nathaniel were my favorite characters, I would have enjoyed some provocative banter between the two of them.

Well, interpretations vary. I perceive several of Anders comments to various party members in Awakening to be sexually suggestive. The particular instance with Nathaniel that I was referring to was this exchange:

Nathaniel: You don't always wear robes, do you?

Anders: Not when I'm naked I don't.

I interpret that as flirtation on Anders' part, but I perceive Anders as being a little bit flirty with everyone in Awakening and the early parts of DA2. Nathaniel doesn't really reciprocate, but that didn't stop the fanfiction writers.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 février 2013 - 02:59 .

[Rawgrim]

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

That is a legitimate concern, definitely. I would really hate if we didn't get another DA game because fans who were uncomfortable with the same sex romance content stopped buying the games. (Not only because I'd be sad that we didn't get another DA game, but because of what that outcome would imply about the majority of DA fans.)

However, I really hope that people will become more respectful of gay or bisexual content, especially when it comes to gay men being represented in video games. And, honestly, I hope and believe that the amount of people who support and/or respect the inclusion of same sex romance content will be able to support BioWare in the future.

It wasn`t the same sex romances that hurt the DA2 sales. Not by a long shot. Just for the record.

[draken-heart]

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

That is a legitimate concern, definitely. I would really hate if we didn't get another DA game because fans who were uncomfortable with the same sex romance content stopped buying the games. (Not only because I'd be sad that we didn't get another DA game, but because of what that outcome would imply about the majority of DA fans.)

However, I really hope that people will become more respectful of gay or bisexual content, especially when it comes to gay men being represented in video games. And, honestly, I hope and believe that the amount of people who support and/or respect the inclusion of same sex romance content will be able to support BioWare in the future.

I am trying to get this thread locked because it is now only about how I hat gays, which is not true. there are legitimate concerns or a good look at how the idea could be implemented, but people only want to look at how i said "gay romances should be stuck with NPC because I worry about the bigots." When Really, I might be saying "they shoudl take the exclusively gay romances slow because that is unchartered territory for Bioware right now. "

[sarakirrer]

Plaintiff wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

How did I miss this happening In Awakening!?! Anders and Nathaniel were my favorite characters, I would have enjoyed some provocative banter between the two of them.

Well, interpretations vary. I perceive several of Anders comments to various party members in Awakening to be sexually suggestive. The particular instance with Nathaniel that I was referring to was this exchange:

Nathaniel[/b]: You don't always wear robes, do you?Anders[/b]: Not when I'm naked I don't.[/list]

...I can't believe I missed the innuendo in that. This is making me want to go look up all their banters again. 

[xAmilli0n]

draken-heart wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

If a person doesn't buy a game because of one line with a potentially gay character, there is something wrong with the player, not the game.

that can spread and cause less money to go to Bioware for the next game, possibly ending the franchise.

You are worrying about a non-issue.

[draken-heart]

sarakirrer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

How did I miss this happening In Awakening!?! Anders and Nathaniel were my favorite characters, I would have enjoyed some provocative banter between the two of them.

Well, interpretations vary. I perceive several of Anders comments to various party members in Awakening to be sexually suggestive. The particular instance with Nathaniel that I was referring to was this exchange:

Nathaniel[/b]: You don't always wear robes, do you?Anders[/b]: Not when I'm naked I don't.[/list]

...I can't believe I missed the innuendo in that. This is making me want to go look up all their banters again. 

I do not see the flirting either. Could mean when he is not wearing robes or having sex he does not wear them.

[Nejeli]

draken-heart wrote...

Anders again, I would not use him if I did not need a healer. Nothing memeroable other than the "Blow up chantry, Free mages" thing he had going.

frankly the Banters are not that important in the overall scheme of things, unless you want to hear your party members talking, and they rarely said anything related to any romance in those banters in DA:O or DA2 anyways.

I don't really get what your point about Anders is. It's not like being straight would have changed his characterization at all. Or are you implying that you think the only reason that Anders was even included was to pander to s/s fans? And I think you really should read the link that's been given to you - twice now, I think - about Anders. Given what Gaider wrote about him, it seems a bit disingenuous to keep insisting that he's only bisexual in DA2 for pandering reasons and that he was straight, straight, straight in DAA.

The banters are actually pretty important in fleshing out the characters and showing their evolving relationships with each other. And I'm not just talking about romantic banters. NPC love interests wouldn't get any kind, and since the party banter is one of the things I love most about these games, I'd be pretty bummed if the only s/s options I had were NPCs.

draken-heart wrote...

the thing I liked about
Samantha/Steve being NPC LIs in ME3 was the fact that Bioware gave
homoesxual players (And straight players with homosexual characters) the
feel of having a lover at home waiting for you to get back. Wanted to
recapture that.

But Steve didn't wait for you at home. In most missions, he didn't just drop you off and head back to the Normandy. He stayed planet-side, often providing back-up and support. He talked before dropping you off, during missions, and occasionally after picking you up. The amount of content he got during some missions was on par with some of the NPCs that actually went on missions with you.

The fact Samantha stayed on ship is one of the biggest reasons I've seen given for why people were disastisfied with her romance arc. She didn't really do much, so her arc felt less relevant and seemed to have less* content than other love interests. And that's going to be a problem with any LI that stays at home. If/When they have the resources to impliment a 'two straight, two bi, and two gay' love interest system, I would rather they all be in the party. If you want that 'waiting at home' feel, you could always just not take your chosen LI out on quests.

*I use 'seemed' because I haven't romanced her yet myself, so I don't know if she actually has less content, or if it just seems that way.

there is also the thing with Resources (Money&time) being set for
certain things. More resources set up for trying to make Gay/Lesbian
romance companions (Dialogue, scenes, banter, alll that) the less that
can be devoted to the things that make the game the game, story and
combat.

This is also true for straight romances.

Modifié par Nejeli, 16 février 2013 - 03:07 .

[Plaintiff]

draken-heart wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

That is a legitimate concern, definitely. I would really hate if we didn't get another DA game because fans who were uncomfortable with the same sex romance content stopped buying the games. (Not only because I'd be sad that we didn't get another DA game, but because of what that outcome would imply about the majority of DA fans.)

However, I really hope that people will become more respectful of gay or bisexual content, especially when it comes to gay men being represented in video games. And, honestly, I hope and believe that the amount of people who support and/or respect the inclusion of same sex romance content will be able to support BioWare in the future.

I am trying to get this thread locked because it is now only about how I hat gays, which is not true. there are legitimate concerns or a good look at how the idea could be implemented, but people only want to look at how i said "gay romances should be stuck with NPC because I worry about the bigots." When Really, I might be saying "they shoudl take the exclusively gay romances slow because that is unchartered territory for Bioware right now. "

But it's not really "uncharted territory", is it? At least three Bioware games now have had relatively substantial same-sex romance content. And aside from some ****ing on the forums, there's been very little in the way of negative feedback.

[Thrillian]

draken-heart wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

That is a legitimate concern, definitely. I would really hate if we didn't get another DA game because fans who were uncomfortable with the same sex romance content stopped buying the games. (Not only because I'd be sad that we didn't get another DA game, but because of what that outcome would imply about the majority of DA fans.)

However, I really hope that people will become more respectful of gay or bisexual content, especially when it comes to gay men being represented in video games. And, honestly, I hope and believe that the amount of people who support and/or respect the inclusion of same sex romance content will be able to support BioWare in the future.

I am trying to get this thread locked because it is now only about how I hat gays, which is not true. there are legitimate concerns or a good look at how the idea could be implemented, but people only want to look at how i said "gay romances should be stuck with NPC because I worry about the bigots." When Really, I might be saying "they shoudl take the exclusively gay romances slow because that is unchartered territory for Bioware right now. "

I am sorry if I misinterpreted your posts in general,  however I will again say that your posts and what you say is your intended message do not coincide.

[draken-heart]

Nejeli wrote...

But Steve didn't wait for you at home. In most missions, he didn't just drop you off and head back to the Normandy. He stayed planet-side, often providing back-up and support. He talked before dropping you off, during missions, and occasionally after picking you up. The amount of content he got during some missions was on par with some of the NPCs that actually went on missions with you.

The fact Samantha stayed on ship is one of the biggest reasons I've seen given for why people were disastisfied with her romance arc. She didn't really do much, so her arc felt less relevant and seemed to have less* content than other love interests. And that's going to be a problem with any LI that stays at home. If/When they have the resources to impliment a 'two straight, two bi, and two gay' love interest system, I would rather they all be in the party. If you want that 'waiting at home' feel, you could always just not take your chosen LI out on quests.

*I use 'seemed' because I haven't romanced her yet myself, so I don't know if she actually has less content, or if it just seems that way.

which is why I suggested a guard Captain or personal escort (read armed guard) who helped you get from place to place or something like that.

[Rawgrim]

Nejeli wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Anders again, I would not use him if I did not need a healer. Nothing memeroable other than the "Blow up chantry, Free mages" thing he had going.

frankly the Banters are not that important in the overall scheme of things, unless you want to hear your party members talking, and they rarely said anything related to any romance in those banters in DA:O or DA2 anyways.

I don't really get what your point about Anders is. It's not like being straight would have changed his characterization at all. Or are you implying that you think the only reason that Anders was even included was to pander to s/s fans? And I think you really should read the link that's been given to you - twice now, I think - about Anders. Given what Gaider wrote about him, it seems a bit disingenuous to keep insisting that he's only bisexual in DA2 for pandering reasons and that he was straight, straight, straight in DAA.

The banters are actually pretty important in fleshing out the characters and showing their evolving relationships with each other. And I'm not just talking about romantic banters. NPC love interests wouldn't get any kind, and since the party banter is one of the things I love most about these games, I'd be pretty bummed if the only s/s options I had were NPCs.

draken-heart wrote...

the thing I liked about
Samantha/Steve being NPC LIs in ME3 was the fact that Bioware gave
homoesxual players (And straight players with homosexual characters) the
feel of having a lover at home waiting for you to get back. Wanted to
recapture that.

But Steve didn't wait for you at home. In most missions, he didn't just drop you off and head back to the Normandy. He stayed planet-side, often providing back-up and support. He talked before dropping you off, during missions, and occasionally after picking you up. The amount of content he got during some missions was on par with some of the NPCs that actually went on missions with you.

The fact Samantha stayed on ship is one of the biggest reasons I've seen given for why people were disastisfied with her romance arc. She didn't really do much, so her arc felt less relevant and seemed to have less* content than other love interests. And that's going to be a problem with any LI that stays at home. If/When they have the resources to impliment a 'two straight, two bi, and two gay' love interest system, I would rather they all be in the party. If you want that 'waiting at home' feel, you could always just not take your chosen LI out on quests.

*I use 'seemed' because I haven't romanced her yet myself, so I don't know if she actually has less content, or if it just seems that way.

Its kind of easy to see Anders as some sort of "catering", given the fact that he shouldn`t even be in Kirkwall when he shows up. According to the timeline, he is still in Amaranthine when he runs into Hawke. Go figure.

[draken-heart]

Thrillho_82 wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

That is a legitimate concern, definitely. I would really hate if we didn't get another DA game because fans who were uncomfortable with the same sex romance content stopped buying the games. (Not only because I'd be sad that we didn't get another DA game, but because of what that outcome would imply about the majority of DA fans.)

However, I really hope that people will become more respectful of gay or bisexual content, especially when it comes to gay men being represented in video games. And, honestly, I hope and believe that the amount of people who support and/or respect the inclusion of same sex romance content will be able to support BioWare in the future.

I am trying to get this thread locked because it is now only about how I hat gays, which is not true. there are legitimate concerns or a good look at how the idea could be implemented, but people only want to look at how i said "gay romances should be stuck with NPC because I worry about the bigots." When Really, I might be saying "they shoudl take the exclusively gay romances slow because that is unchartered territory for Bioware right now. "

I am sorry if I misinterpreted your posts in general,  however I will again say that your posts and what you say is your intended message do not coincide.

because I never state my true intentions because you always assume I have some sort of bigot intention to the post.

[Plaintiff]

draken-heart wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

How did I miss this happening In Awakening!?! Anders and Nathaniel were my favorite characters, I would have enjoyed some provocative banter between the two of them.

Well, interpretations vary. I perceive several of Anders comments to various party members in Awakening to be sexually suggestive. The particular instance with Nathaniel that I was referring to was this exchange:

Nathaniel[/b]: You don't always wear robes, do you?Anders[/b]: Not when I'm naked I don't.[/list]

...I can't believe I missed the innuendo in that. This is making me want to go look up all their banters again. 

I do not see the flirting either. Could mean when he is not wearing robes or having sex he does not wear them.

Well as I said, interpretations vary. I personally don't make those sorts of jokes unless I want someone to think about me being naked.

[draken-heart]

Plaintiff wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

How did I miss this happening In Awakening!?! Anders and Nathaniel were my favorite characters, I would have enjoyed some provocative banter between the two of them.

Well, interpretations vary. I perceive several of Anders comments to various party members in Awakening to be sexually suggestive. The particular instance with Nathaniel that I was referring to was this exchange:

Nathaniel[/b]: You don't always wear robes, do you?Anders[/b]: Not when I'm naked I don't.[/list]

...I can't believe I missed the innuendo in that. This is making me want to go look up all their banters again. 

I do not see the flirting either. Could mean when he is not wearing robes or having sex he does not wear them.

Well as I said, interpretations vary. I personally don't make those sorts of jokes unless I want someone to think about me being naked.

maybe he was trying to wierd Nathaniel out for some reason.

[Fast Jimmy]

draken-heart wrote...

Nejeli wrote...

But Steve didn't wait for you at home. In most missions, he didn't just drop you off and head back to the Normandy. He stayed planet-side, often providing back-up and support. He talked before dropping you off, during missions, and occasionally after picking you up. The amount of content he got during some missions was on par with some of the NPCs that actually went on missions with you.

The fact Samantha stayed on ship is one of the biggest reasons I've seen given for why people were disastisfied with her romance arc. She didn't really do much, so her arc felt less relevant and seemed to have less* content than other love interests. And that's going to be a problem with any LI that stays at home. If/When they have the resources to impliment a 'two straight, two bi, and two gay' love interest system, I would rather they all be in the party. If you want that 'waiting at home' feel, you could always just not take your chosen LI out on quests.

*I use 'seemed' because I haven't romanced her yet myself, so I don't know if she actually has less content, or if it just seems that way.

which is why I suggested a guard Captain or personal escort (read armed guard) who helped you get from place to place or something like that.

If they just brought back Griffons, this wouldn't be a problem.

You could have a male S/S mount/romance and a female dragon S/S mount/romance. Its multi-tasking!

[sarakirrer]

Rawgrim wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

word of mouth can hurt sales. If one part of a game falters because of equality, money drops and the devs have less money to work on the next title.

That is a legitimate concern, definitely. I would really hate if we didn't get another DA game because fans who were uncomfortable with the same sex romance content stopped buying the games. (Not only because I'd be sad that we didn't get another DA game, but because of what that outcome would imply about the majority of DA fans.)

However, I really hope that people will become more respectful of gay or bisexual content, especially when it comes to gay men being represented in video games. And, honestly, I hope and believe that the amount of people who support and/or respect the inclusion of same sex romance content will be able to support BioWare in the future.

It wasn`t the same sex romances that hurt the DA2 sales. Not by a long shot. Just for the record.

FWIW, I don't believe that they did. {smilie}

[Rawgrim]

draken-heart wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

How did I miss this happening In Awakening!?! Anders and Nathaniel were my favorite characters, I would have enjoyed some provocative banter between the two of them.

Well, interpretations vary. I perceive several of Anders comments to various party members in Awakening to be sexually suggestive. The particular instance with Nathaniel that I was referring to was this exchange:

Nathaniel[/b]: You don't always wear robes, do you?Anders[/b]: Not when I'm naked I don't.[/list]

...I can't believe I missed the innuendo in that. This is making me want to go look up all their banters again. 

I do not see the flirting either. Could mean when he is not wearing robes or having sex he does not wear them.

Well as I said, interpretations vary. I personally don't make those sorts of jokes unless I want someone to think about me being naked.

maybe he was trying to wierd Nathaniel out for some reason.

I make jokes like that all the time. Mostly to just wierd people out and whatsnot. I am not BI, though.

[draken-heart]

Plaintiff wrote...
But it's not really "uncharted territory", is it? At least three Bioware games now have had relatively substantial same-sex romance content. And aside from some ****ing on the forums, there's been very little in the way of negative feedback.

I seem to recall the exclusive same sex romance content was from ME3. what are the other with exclusive S/S romances?