642 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Strik1101 wrote...

I dont mean to offend anyone with this post, so please don't take this the wrong way, but why is there so much emphasis on the sexuality of the companions/npc? Why is it so important for such a vocal portion of the player base i mean? Like, i dont understand why every character should need to cater to everyone's individual sexual preferences (the "every character/npc/romance option should be bi idea specifically). That isn't realistic, and the sexual portion of the game, while adding extra depth to the character arcs, is wholly unnecessary to the game in general. I would prefer romance options continue to be somewhat limited, to create a tighter focus on the characters, add more depth, make it more realistic, instead of having the option to **** around the country side instead of saving it.

Though like I said, the romance/sex portions of the game really aren't necessary, and i'll probably ignore them like I largely did in the past 2 games. I was just looking for context into this. I'm wholly in support of same-sex, bi-sex, and hetero-sex, but i think it would be super weird having every character with a possible romance option throwing them selves at the main character regardless of anyone's sexuality or gender.

Real people have preferences, its more realistic that the characters do as well.

Spot on.

Personally for me, as long as I have options in s/s option and not get stuck with just one option, I don't care if they're all bisexual or set orientations. I don't think it's asking too much to have equal representation. That's why if bisexality is not possible, I would generally prefer 2 bi/2 gay/2 straight. 

I`d actually preffer 2 BI, 1 gay and 1 straight too. And i am straight, for the record. I only have a problem with all options just switching sexuality just to cater to the player. It just makes the choice of gender turn into s cosmetic one, like a hairstyle.

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

You pick who lives or die by doing an in gamein story action. Picking a characters sexuality is more like an Out-Of-Character choice. Abit like using an editor, in a way.

Well, I don't have a problem with that. Choosing which of Hawke's siblings dies is also an out-of-game choice tied to class. And we make an out-of-game choice about the general state of the world, both in Dragon Age and Mass Effect in the form of save imports, which affects narrative and sidequests.

Thats the game making a choice for you, so you don`t lack a mage or whatever. Its an event. If you had 1 sibling, and you for whatever reason got to pick his or her class, then it would be the same. All the stuff you import in ME and DA are based on choices you made in game. It imports your in-game deeds. So to speak. If you put Alistair on the throne, for example, it only happens because you convince him to do it. If i remember correctly it also requires the Persuasion skill + him being friends with you. You don`t change the character before you even run into him.

But DA2 also allows you to pick one of three general world-states prior to starting the game. And the ME series does something similar.

[sarakirrer]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
Honestly, it bothers me that someone would hide that aspect of themselves from a person they purport to love.

It bothers me that someone would hide the fact that they were going to blow up the Chantry from a person the purport to love, too.

Joking aside, though, I agree with this sentiment. I always wished that Anders had also confided in a
female Hawke, if only because the fact that Karl was once Anders' lover
gave his loss and Anders' actions as a result of it a deeper meaning. I didn't really understand why Anders confiding in Hawke was restricted to male Hawke.

Perhaps social stigma. It's easier for a girl to admit that they had been with another girl before since many guys find it "hot" while a guy who had been with another guy would generally turn people off. 

This is a good point--and even disregarding the possible social stigma, I guess I should consider that it's pretty much their first meaningful conversation as friends, and at this point, like someone else said, it doesn't really make sense to open with, "By the way, I also like guys" when trying to relate to a girl he's crushing on rather than a guy.

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sure you can have great themes when the romances are "restricted" as well. They neither make them better or worse. And it does work in plenty "universes".

You can have "great" themes, but they won't be better than they would be with bisexual characters, as you said. And what I meant is that the idea of the themes being superior doesn't work in any universe.

They could be better or worse. Bisexuallity doesn`t equal better. Thats just saying you are better than gay or straight people, because you are bisexual (for example). And thats bigotry.

[Medhia Nox]

@Battlebloodmage: I disagree your statement that representation should be equal. While I'll choose the M/M option - I don't think I should have as many available as the heterosexual option (unless it's only 1 each).

If it "can" be done without someone citing "resources" - then fine - but if, for whatever reason, it were an issue - than I think the majority consumer should win out on this.

I might have this view because I'm a business owner and I make good money during Christmas time - and while I represent other holidays like Hanukkah - I'll never have equal quantities Christmas/Hanukkah - it would be a horrible business practice.

I'd much rather they spend their time trying to create a story that is something more than combat obstacle courses - instead of focusing too heavily on romances (unless they evolve and the romance becomes part of the story).

Anyway - just my two cents on that particular topic (of equal representation)

[Xilizhra]

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sure you can have great themes when the romances are "restricted" as well. They neither make them better or worse. And it does work in plenty "universes".

You can have "great" themes, but they won't be better than they would be with bisexual characters, as you said. And what I meant is that the idea of the themes being superior doesn't work in any universe.

They could be better or worse. Bisexuallity doesn`t equal better. Thats just saying you are better than gay or straight people, because you are bisexual (for example). And thats bigotry.

That is not the damned point. All I ask for is to accept the all-bi solution until Bioware somehow gains enough resources to do a more full sexuality spread. If ever, because to be frank, I enjoy having options for everyone.

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

You pick who lives or die by doing an in gamein story action. Picking a characters sexuality is more like an Out-Of-Character choice. Abit like using an editor, in a way.

Well, I don't have a problem with that. Choosing which of Hawke's siblings dies is also an out-of-game choice tied to class. And we make an out-of-game choice about the general state of the world, both in Dragon Age and Mass Effect in the form of save imports, which affects narrative and sidequests.

Thats the game making a choice for you, so you don`t lack a mage or whatever. Its an event. If you had 1 sibling, and you for whatever reason got to pick his or her class, then it would be the same. All the stuff you import in ME and DA are based on choices you made in game. It imports your in-game deeds. So to speak. If you put Alistair on the throne, for example, it only happens because you convince him to do it. If i remember correctly it also requires the Persuasion skill + him being friends with you. You don`t change the character before you even run into him.

But DA2 also allows you to pick one of three general world-states prior to starting the game. And the ME series does something similar.

None of these changes NPC`s sexual orientation. And I don`t remember getting to pick any choices when i imported my DAO save into DA2.

Those choices are choices you make in a previous game anyway. if you don`t import you get them. Its just the game asking Shep what he did last year. All of these are actions you did or did not do earlier.

[Battlebloodmage]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Battlebloodmage: I disagree your statement that representation should be equal. While I'll choose the M/M option - I don't think I should have as many available as the heterosexual option (unless it's only 1 each).

If it "can" be done without someone citing "resources" - then fine - but if, for whatever reason, it were an issue - than I think the majority consumer should win out on this.

I might have this view because I'm a business owner and I make good money during Christmas time - and while I represent other holidays like Hanukkah - I'll never have equal quantities Christmas/Hanukkah - it would be a horrible business practice.

I'd much rather they spend their time trying to create a story that is something more than combat obstacle courses - instead of focusing too heavily on romances (unless they evolve and the romance becomes part of the story).

Anyway - just my two cents on that particular topic (of equal representation)

I don't think the minority should be screwed out of content for no reason. Romance is optional content, if the game is good, people will buy it regardless of the romances in the game as demonstrated in DAO and Skyrim. Romance is not that important in term of economic standpoint. Like I said, unless they can have more options for everyone, I would prefer the all bisexuals. If there are 4 options then 1 gay and 1 straight for each would be okay, too. I just don't want to have the feeling of being treated lesser for paying the same price as another person just because that person happen to belong to the majority. If they want to focus on the storyline the I guess it would be an option. Everyone wins. 

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 16 février 2013 - 04:49 .

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sure you can have great themes when the romances are "restricted" as well. They neither make them better or worse. And it does work in plenty "universes".

You can have "great" themes, but they won't be better than they would be with bisexual characters, as you said. And what I meant is that the idea of the themes being superior doesn't work in any universe.

They could be better or worse. Bisexuallity doesn`t equal better. Thats just saying you are better than gay or straight people, because you are bisexual (for example). And thats bigotry.

That is not the damned point. All I ask for is to accept the all-bi solution until Bioware somehow gains enough resources to do a more full sexuality spread. If ever, because to be frank, I enjoy having options for everyone.

Well, i had 1 option for romance in that game. And that was Isabela. I couldn`t bring myself to romance Merrill, who looks like she is 12. Felt like a felony. So i probably had less options than you did.

[Medhia Nox]

@Battlebloodmage: I guess where we disagree is the "for no reason" part. Bioware isn't a civil liberties charity - it's a business. Anyway - it's just an opinion.

[Battlebloodmage]

It's my opinion, too, because romance shouldn't affect the sales. It would be sad for people to buy a game for the romance alone. If the game is good, people will buy it.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 16 février 2013 - 04:51 .

[Terraforming2154]

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sure you can have great themes when the romances are "restricted" as well. They neither make them better or worse. And it does work in plenty "universes".

You can have "great" themes, but they won't be better than they would be with bisexual characters, as you said. And what I meant is that the idea of the themes being superior doesn't work in any universe.

They could be better or worse. Bisexuallity doesn`t equal better. Thats just saying you are better than gay or straight people, because you are bisexual (for example). And thats bigotry.

That is not the damned point. All I ask for is to accept the all-bi solution until Bioware somehow gains enough resources to do a more full sexuality spread. If ever, because to be frank, I enjoy having options for everyone.

Well, i had 1 option for romance in that game. And that was Isabela. I couldn`t bring myself to romance Merrill, who looks like she is 12. Felt like a felony. So i probably had less options than you did.

That is just...incredibly dismissive to the entire issue. Really.

[Rawgrim]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Battlebloodmage: I disagree your statement that representation should be equal. While I'll choose the M/M option - I don't think I should have as many available as the heterosexual option (unless it's only 1 each).

If it "can" be done without someone citing "resources" - then fine - but if, for whatever reason, it were an issue - than I think the majority consumer should win out on this.

I might have this view because I'm a business owner and I make good money during Christmas time - and while I represent other holidays like Hanukkah - I'll never have equal quantities Christmas/Hanukkah - it would be a horrible business practice.

I'd much rather they spend their time trying to create a story that is something more than combat obstacle courses - instead of focusing too heavily on romances (unless they evolve and the romance becomes part of the story).

Anyway - just my two cents on that particular topic (of equal representation)

I don't think the minority should be screwed out of content for no reason. Romance is optional content, if the game is good, people will buy it regardless of the romances in the game as demonstrated in DAO and Skyrim. Romance is not that important in term of economic standpoint. Like I said, unless they can have more options for everyone, I would prefer the all bisexuals. If there are 4 options then 1 gay and 1 straight for each would be okay, too. I just don't want to have the feeling of being treated lesser for paying the same price as another person just because that person happen to belong to the majority. If they want to focus on the storyline the I guess it would be an option. Everyone wins. 

Good point. But remember. You are paying for a roleplaying game, not a dating sim. Romances are an optional aspect, more like a side-quest.

[Xilizhra]

Well, i had 1 option for romance in that game. And that was Isabela. I couldn`t bring myself to romance Merrill, who looks like she is 12. Felt like a felony. So i probably had less options than you did.

I'm sure Bioware is very sorry for not catering to those sufficiently deranged to be unable to tell the difference between an adult woman of a different race and a human preteen.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Battlebloodmage: I disagree your statement that representation should be equal. While I'll choose the M/M option - I don't think I should have as many available as the heterosexual option (unless it's only 1 each).

If it "can" be done without someone citing "resources" - then fine - but if, for whatever reason, it were an issue - than I think the majority consumer should win out on this.

I might have this view because I'm a business owner and I make good money during Christmas time - and while I represent other holidays like Hanukkah - I'll never have equal quantities Christmas/Hanukkah - it would be a horrible business practice.

I'd much rather they spend their time trying to create a story that is something more than combat obstacle courses - instead of focusing too heavily on romances (unless they evolve and the romance becomes part of the story).

Anyway - just my two cents on that particular topic (of equal representation)

I don't understand exactly what it is you sell in this holiday analogy (decorations?), but it doesn't really apply to same-sex content in videogames. 'Christmas' and 'Hanukkah' are different categories of product, and someone who is looking for 'Christmas' isn't likely to be shopping for 'Hanukkah' and vice versa.

But Dragon Age 2 is the same game for everyone, and the same content is availble to everyone. There are not separate "Straight" and "Gay" editions of Dragon Age 2, both sets of content exist in the same product. If they were split into separate editions based on sexual content, then maybe it would make sense to produce more of one and less of the other, but since that's not what's happening, there is no good reason for gay romance to be less prevalent in the games than straight romance.

[Rawgrim]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sure you can have great themes when the romances are "restricted" as well. They neither make them better or worse. And it does work in plenty "universes".

You can have "great" themes, but they won't be better than they would be with bisexual characters, as you said. And what I meant is that the idea of the themes being superior doesn't work in any universe.

They could be better or worse. Bisexuallity doesn`t equal better. Thats just saying you are better than gay or straight people, because you are bisexual (for example). And thats bigotry.

That is not the damned point. All I ask for is to accept the all-bi solution until Bioware somehow gains enough resources to do a more full sexuality spread. If ever, because to be frank, I enjoy having options for everyone.

Well, i had 1 option for romance in that game. And that was Isabela. I couldn`t bring myself to romance Merrill, who looks like she is 12. Felt like a felony. So i probably had less options than you did.

That is just...incredibly dismissive to the entire issue. Really.

Didn`t mean to sound dismissive. I was just making a point.

[Battlebloodmage]

Rawgrim wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Battlebloodmage: I disagree your statement that representation should be equal. While I'll choose the M/M option - I don't think I should have as many available as the heterosexual option (unless it's only 1 each).

If it "can" be done without someone citing "resources" - then fine - but if, for whatever reason, it were an issue - than I think the majority consumer should win out on this.

I might have this view because I'm a business owner and I make good money during Christmas time - and while I represent other holidays like Hanukkah - I'll never have equal quantities Christmas/Hanukkah - it would be a horrible business practice.

I'd much rather they spend their time trying to create a story that is something more than combat obstacle courses - instead of focusing too heavily on romances (unless they evolve and the romance becomes part of the story).

Anyway - just my two cents on that particular topic (of equal representation)

I don't think the minority should be screwed out of content for no reason. Romance is optional content, if the game is good, people will buy it regardless of the romances in the game as demonstrated in DAO and Skyrim. Romance is not that important in term of economic standpoint. Like I said, unless they can have more options for everyone, I would prefer the all bisexuals. If there are 4 options then 1 gay and 1 straight for each would be okay, too. I just don't want to have the feeling of being treated lesser for paying the same price as another person just because that person happen to belong to the majority. If they want to focus on the storyline the I guess it would be an option. Everyone wins. 

Good point. But remember. You are paying for a roleplaying game, not a dating sim. Romances are an optional aspect, more like a side-quest.

And yet people argue about this time and time again until the cows come home. It's something people passionate about. You have talked about this many times over as well, so it's not like you don't care. For me, I just want to be treated equal, not special. Bisexuality or not, if everyone have equal options, I'm happy.

Modifié par Battlebloodmage, 16 février 2013 - 04:56 .

[Plaintiff]

Rawgrim wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Battlebloodmage: I disagree your statement that representation should be equal. While I'll choose the M/M option - I don't think I should have as many available as the heterosexual option (unless it's only 1 each).

If it "can" be done without someone citing "resources" - then fine - but if, for whatever reason, it were an issue - than I think the majority consumer should win out on this.

I might have this view because I'm a business owner and I make good money during Christmas time - and while I represent other holidays like Hanukkah - I'll never have equal quantities Christmas/Hanukkah - it would be a horrible business practice.

I'd much rather they spend their time trying to create a story that is something more than combat obstacle courses - instead of focusing too heavily on romances (unless they evolve and the romance becomes part of the story).

Anyway - just my two cents on that particular topic (of equal representation)

I don't think the minority should be screwed out of content for no reason. Romance is optional content, if the game is good, people will buy it regardless of the romances in the game as demonstrated in DAO and Skyrim. Romance is not that important in term of economic standpoint. Like I said, unless they can have more options for everyone, I would prefer the all bisexuals. If there are 4 options then 1 gay and 1 straight for each would be okay, too. I just don't want to have the feeling of being treated lesser for paying the same price as another person just because that person happen to belong to the majority. If they want to focus on the storyline the I guess it would be an option. Everyone wins. 

Good point. But remember. You are paying for a roleplaying game, not a dating sim. Romances are an optional aspect, more like a side-quest.

Most dating sims don't actually have gay romance content either. They might have one token homosexual character, who typically has less content than the heterosexual ones.

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, i had 1 option for romance in that game. And that was Isabela. I couldn`t bring myself to romance Merrill, who looks like she is 12. Felt like a felony. So i probably had less options than you did.

I'm sure Bioware is very sorry for not catering to those sufficiently deranged to be unable to tell the difference between an adult woman of a different race and a human preteen.

Given her looks and how incredibly naive she is....It was kind of hard to tell the difference. So yes, I wasn`t sure how young she was. I don`t see how its deranged to keep your paws off the goods in cases like that.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: So - if given two playthroughs you would choose 1 straight relationship and 1 gay one?

I think - given the nature of these boards - the value of the romances is being very downplayed on this thread.

[Rawgrim]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Battlebloodmage: I disagree your statement that representation should be equal. While I'll choose the M/M option - I don't think I should have as many available as the heterosexual option (unless it's only 1 each).

If it "can" be done without someone citing "resources" - then fine - but if, for whatever reason, it were an issue - than I think the majority consumer should win out on this.

I might have this view because I'm a business owner and I make good money during Christmas time - and while I represent other holidays like Hanukkah - I'll never have equal quantities Christmas/Hanukkah - it would be a horrible business practice.

I'd much rather they spend their time trying to create a story that is something more than combat obstacle courses - instead of focusing too heavily on romances (unless they evolve and the romance becomes part of the story).

Anyway - just my two cents on that particular topic (of equal representation)

I don't think the minority should be screwed out of content for no reason. Romance is optional content, if the game is good, people will buy it regardless of the romances in the game as demonstrated in DAO and Skyrim. Romance is not that important in term of economic standpoint. Like I said, unless they can have more options for everyone, I would prefer the all bisexuals. If there are 4 options then 1 gay and 1 straight for each would be okay, too. I just don't want to have the feeling of being treated lesser for paying the same price as another person just because that person happen to belong to the majority. If they want to focus on the storyline the I guess it would be an option. Everyone wins. 

Good point. But remember. You are paying for a roleplaying game, not a dating sim. Romances are an optional aspect, more like a side-quest.

And yet people argue about this time and time again until the cows come home. It's something people passionate about. You have talked about this many times over as well, so it's not like you don't care. For me, I just want to be treated equal, not special. Bisexuality or not, if everyone have equal options, I'm happy.

Yes, but I argue it from a perspective of wanting a roleplaying game, and the characters in it, to be as belivable as possible. I feel that belivable characters are the core of every good story.

[sarakirrer]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Battlebloodmage: I guess where we disagree is the "for no reason" part. Bioware isn't a civil liberties charity - it's a business. Anyway - it's just an opinion.

You're right that BioWare is a business and not a charity, and you also made some good points in your post about your own business practices. But decisions that support best practices for businesses aren't necessarily the "best" decisions. Personally, I believe that in an ideal world, Christmas and Chanukah WOULD be equally represented, just like gay and straight romance options. I acknowledge the reality that businesses are at times forced to embrace the majority consumer rather than the minority consumer, but I appreciate that BioWare isn't doing that. Instead, they're making an effort to address both the minority AND the majority consumer's needs by making all their love options bisexual. While this option is problematic, it includes gay players without excluding straight players.

Modifié par sarakirrer, 16 février 2013 - 05:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, i had 1 option for romance in that game. And that was Isabela. I couldn`t bring myself to romance Merrill, who looks like she is 12. Felt like a felony. So i probably had less options than you did.

I'm sure Bioware is very sorry for not catering to those sufficiently deranged to be unable to tell the difference between an adult woman of a different race and a human preteen.

Given her looks and how incredibly naive she is....It was kind of hard to tell the difference. So yes, I wasn`t sure how young she was. I don`t see how its deranged to keep your paws off the goods in cases like that.

Um, all elves look like that? Marethari has the exact same body type. So either all elves are 12, or you're just being incredibly silly. Hell, you don't even need in-game information, just enough knowledge of Bioware that they wouldn't put someone in who was only twelve.

[Rawgrim]

[/quote]
Most dating sims don't actually have gay romance content either. They might have one token homosexual character, who typically has less content than the heterosexual ones.
[/quote]

I will take your word for it. I have never played any dating sims, so I wouldn`t know. BUT I do think dating sims should cater equally to all sexualities.

[Medhia Nox]

@sarakirrer: I did say that equality is good if resources aren't an issue.

Also - I don't mind the PC-sexual view Bioware takes at all.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 16 février 2013 - 05:03 .