642 réponses à ce sujet

[sarakirrer]

Xilizhra wrote...
Um, all elves look like that? Marethari has the exact same body type. So either all elves are 12, or you're just being incredibly silly. Hell, you don't even need in-game information, just enough knowledge of Bioware that they wouldn't put someone in who was only twelve.

I also thought Merrill was very childlike. While you're correct that all elves do have that body type, her body type combined with her general naivete about the world and the things in it made her seem very young.

[Plaintiff]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Plaintiff: So - if given two playthroughs you would choose 1 straight relationship and 1 gay one?

I think - given the nature of these boards - the value of the romances is being very downplayed on this thread.

No, I only do gay romances, that wasn't the point of my post.

The number of playthroughs anyone does, and the content of those playthroughs is irrelevent. Everyone has to buy the same game, everyone is paying for all of the content, not just the portions of it that they're going to use. That is why your analogy is flawed.

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, i had 1 option for romance in that game. And that was Isabela. I couldn`t bring myself to romance Merrill, who looks like she is 12. Felt like a felony. So i probably had less options than you did.

I'm sure Bioware is very sorry for not catering to those sufficiently deranged to be unable to tell the difference between an adult woman of a different race and a human preteen.

Given her looks and how incredibly naive she is....It was kind of hard to tell the difference. So yes, I wasn`t sure how young she was. I don`t see how its deranged to keep your paws off the goods in cases like that.

Um, all elves look like that? Marethari has the exact same body type. So either all elves are 12, or you're just being incredibly silly. Hell, you don't even need in-game information, just enough knowledge of Bioware that they wouldn't put someone in who was only twelve.

Well Marethari has wrinkles + gray hair....Thats kind of a huge sign right there. In my first playthrough i had no clue about Merrill`s age. She looked like one of those token schoolgirls from some jerg. Eyes twice as big as her mouth etc. Hard to tell. So i stuck with Isabela.

[Battlebloodmage]

Rawgrim wrote...



Yes, but I argue it from a perspective of wanting a roleplaying game, and the characters in it, to be as belivable as possible. I feel that belivable characters are the core of every good story.

Like I said, I don't mind not having bisexuality as long as everyone have options and not get stuck with just one LI. I would like to roleplay the game the way I want, and if I can have options in who I romance, I don't mind if certain characters have restriction based on my gender. 

[Xilizhra]

Well Marethari has wrinkles + gray hair....Thats kind of a huge sign right there. In my first playthrough i had no clue about Merrill`s age. She looked like one of those token schoolgirls from some jerg. Eyes twice as big as her mouth etc. Hard to tell. So i stuck with Isabela.

It was not hard to tell, you... all right, stopping now. Regardless, I really feel that all you needed here was a bit of common sense.

[Rawgrim]

sarakirrer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Um, all elves look like that? Marethari has the exact same body type. So either all elves are 12, or you're just being incredibly silly. Hell, you don't even need in-game information, just enough knowledge of Bioware that they wouldn't put someone in who was only twelve.

I also thought Merrill was very childlike. While you're correct that all elves do have that body type, her body type combined with her general naivete about the world and the things in it made her seem very young.

Exactly. It was abit off-putting.

[Rawgrim]

Battlebloodmage wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...



Yes, but I argue it from a perspective of wanting a roleplaying game, and the characters in it, to be as belivable as possible. I feel that belivable characters are the core of every good story.

Like I said, I don't mind not having bisexuality as long as everyone have options and not get stuck with just one LI. I would like to roleplay the game the way I want, and if I can have options in who I romance, I don't mind if certain characters have restriction based on my gender. 

I agree completely.

[ElitePinecone]

draken-heart wrote...
it has to be a good reason for the characters that are homosexual being homosexual. 

FFS. This is absurd and offensive. Sexual orientation doesn't have a reason.

[Rixatrix]

Why all the emphasis on NPCs' sexuality having to be realistic?

As long as there are many PC-sexual options, IDGAF about "realism" in NPCs' sexuality. The story is what you make of it with "PC-sexual" NPCs. If you're gay, your love interests are gay. If you're straight, your love interests are straight. If you're bi, your love interests are bi. Everybody wins!

[Plaintiff]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well Marethari has wrinkles + gray hair....Thats kind of a huge sign right there. In my first playthrough i had no clue about Merrill`s age. She looked like one of those token schoolgirls from some jerg. Eyes twice as big as her mouth etc. Hard to tell. So i stuck with Isabela.

It was not hard to tell, you... all right, stopping now. Regardless, I really feel that all you needed here was a bit of common sense.

While I'm sure Merrill is of a reasonable age, her apparent naivete does make her seem very childlike. On occasion, she seems to have a legitimate developmental disorder. For instance, when her apparent inability to identify an obvious ruse causes her to screw up Hawke's plan to get into a storehouse. The only other explanation is that she's willing to risk her friend's lives for the sake of being a total troll.

In the real world, if I met someone who behaved as she did, I would suspect that they lacked the mental capacity required to give informed consent.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 février 2013 - 05:11 .

[Rawgrim]

BlueMoonSeraphim wrote...

Why all the emphasis on NPCs' sexuality having to be realistic?

As long as there are many PC-sexual options, IDGAF about "realism" in NPCs' sexuality. The story is what you make of it with "PC-sexual" NPCs. If you're gay, your love interests are gay. If you're straight, your love interests are straight. If you're bi, your love interests are bi. Everybody wins!

Except the integrety of the story - wich loses. Characters changing back and forth, based on the players interests. Makes them less solid, and more like a toggle option.

[Xilizhra]

Plaintiff wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well Marethari has wrinkles + gray hair....Thats kind of a huge sign right there. In my first playthrough i had no clue about Merrill`s age. She looked like one of those token schoolgirls from some jerg. Eyes twice as big as her mouth etc. Hard to tell. So i stuck with Isabela.

It was not hard to tell, you... all right, stopping now. Regardless, I really feel that all you needed here was a bit of common sense.

While I'm sure Merrill is of a reasonable age, her apparent naivete does make her seem very childlike. On occasion, she seems to have a legitimate developmental disorder. For instance, when her apparent inability to distinguish an obvious ruse causes her to screw up Hawke's plan to get into a storehouse. The only other explanation is that she's wiling to risk her friend's lives for the sake of being a total troll.

In the real world, if I met someone who behaved as she did, I would suspect that they lacked the mental capacity required to give informed consent.

I suspect that she hadn't really been paying attention up until that point. Although truth be told, I never get that situation and tend to sweep it under the rug, as it's one of the more OOC moments in the game. For the most part, it's major culture shock combined with some inherent naivite. However, all of the worst moments such as the one you mentioned are in Act 1, and you can't romance her until three years later.

[Medhia Nox]

@Plaintiff: This isn't a thread arguing my analogy - so I'll explain a little and then move on. I own a garden center - a business that targets approx. 80% women. To that end - marketing is targeted at women. We sell more flowers - because women like flowers over shrubs. And - during Christmas - we make a lot of money off trees, wreaths, etc.

As an aside - a fellow garden center became surrounded by a large jewish population. As a result - their Christmas season is far more diminished than my own. So they compensate with other products. If I carried equal parts Christmas/Hannuka goods - I'd be closing my doors in two/three years.  Since - as you aptly pointed out - you only choose one product (and during the majority of the year - a person's faith is irrellevant at my establishment).  So I actually think the analogy is pretty good.  But again - not the point of the thread.

I was simply stating that "if it were necessary" - not trying to downplay the relevance of representation. 

I'm not against equal representation - but even as the target minority - I'd always choose for more straight romances if I had to make a choice due to resources.

I don't believe there's a business in the world that wouldn't choose their largest money making audience - if the choice is necessary (if it isn't - then equality for all - sure)

Anyway - didn't mean to bust the vibe of the thread.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 16 février 2013 - 05:16 .

[Rawgrim]

Plaintiff wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well Marethari has wrinkles + gray hair....Thats kind of a huge sign right there. In my first playthrough i had no clue about Merrill`s age. She looked like one of those token schoolgirls from some jerg. Eyes twice as big as her mouth etc. Hard to tell. So i stuck with Isabela.

It was not hard to tell, you... all right, stopping now. Regardless, I really feel that all you needed here was a bit of common sense.

While I'm sure Merrill is of a reasonable age, her apparent naivete does make her seem very childlike. On occasion, she seems to have a legitimate developmental disorder. For instance, when her apparent inability to identify an obvious ruse causes her to screw up Hawke's plan to get into a storehouse. The only other explanation is that she's willing to risk her friend's lives for the sake of being a total troll.

In the real world, if I met someone who behaved as she did, I would suspect that they lacked the mental capacity required to give informed consent.

Spot on. Plus she also gets countless warnings about blood magic being bad. She even fights a few hundred abominations and whatsnot throughout the game. Still she ignores it up untill her fingers gets badly burned. Thats what kids do. Thinking bad things won`t happen to them.

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well Marethari has wrinkles + gray hair....Thats kind of a huge sign right there. In my first playthrough i had no clue about Merrill`s age. She looked like one of those token schoolgirls from some jerg. Eyes twice as big as her mouth etc. Hard to tell. So i stuck with Isabela.

It was not hard to tell, you... all right, stopping now. Regardless, I really feel that all you needed here was a bit of common sense.

While I'm sure Merrill is of a reasonable age, her apparent naivete does make her seem very childlike. On occasion, she seems to have a legitimate developmental disorder. For instance, when her apparent inability to distinguish an obvious ruse causes her to screw up Hawke's plan to get into a storehouse. The only other explanation is that she's wiling to risk her friend's lives for the sake of being a total troll.

In the real world, if I met someone who behaved as she did, I would suspect that they lacked the mental capacity required to give informed consent.

I suspect that she hadn't really been paying attention up until that point. Although truth be told, I never get that situation and tend to sweep it under the rug, as it's one of the more OOC moments in the game. For the most part, it's major culture shock combined with some inherent naivite. However, all of the worst moments such as the one you mentioned are in Act 1, and you can't romance her until three years later.

She hasn`t learned a thing in those 3 years though. Still as naive.

[Xilizhra]

Spot on. Plus she also gets countless warnings about blood magic being bad. She even fights a few hundred abominations and whatsnot throughout the game. Still she ignores it up untill her fingers gets badly burned. Thats what kids do. Thinking bad things won`t happen to them.

Blood magic never harms her or anyone else in the slightest. The entire ending fiasco is Marethari's fault, spurred on by Audacity. Marethari is completely full of **** throughout the entire game.

[Harle Cerulean]

Rawgrim wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Um, all elves look like that? Marethari has the exact same body type. So either all elves are 12, or you're just being incredibly silly. Hell, you don't even need in-game information, just enough knowledge of Bioware that they wouldn't put someone in who was only twelve.

I also thought Merrill was very childlike. While you're correct that all elves do have that body type, her body type combined with her general naivete about the world and the things in it made her seem very young.

Exactly. It was abit off-putting.

While it may have been offputting, you're missing the point.  You had a choice, and you chose Isabela because Merrill wasn't to your taste, despite being female.  Your tastes said she seemed too young to be appealing.

Now imagine Isabela wasn't romanceable by your male Hawke, only Merrill was.  Then you have no choice if you want to play a het romance with your male Hawke.  This is the situation people who wanted to play a gay romance with their male Warden were faced with in DA:O if they didn't like Zevran.  Meanwhile, people who wanted to play a het romance with a male Warden, if they didn't care for Morrigan's attitude, could romance Leliana.  And if they didn't like Leliana's devoutness, they could romance Morrigan.

DA2's system is more fair, because there are two options if you want to play straight, and two if you want to play gay.  Plaintiff doesn't like Fenris (I believe - I could be wronf), but he had the option to go for Anders.  I don't care for Anders, but I had the option to go for Fenris.  If one of those two was straight, one of us would have been unhappy at having no choice except the one we don't like.  You didn't like Merrill (as a romance), so you went for Isabela.  Fair!

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Spot on. Plus she also gets countless warnings about blood magic being bad. She even fights a few hundred abominations and whatsnot throughout the game. Still she ignores it up untill her fingers gets badly burned. Thats what kids do. Thinking bad things won`t happen to them.

Blood magic never harms her or anyone else in the slightest. The entire ending fiasco is Marethari's fault, spurred on by Audacity. Marethari is completely full of **** throughout the entire game.

Actually she pretty much took a bullet for Merrill. Merrill also screws up in that fade mission, I belive. She is extremely succeptible to possession and whatsnot.

[Rawgrim]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

sarakirrer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Um, all elves look like that? Marethari has the exact same body type. So either all elves are 12, or you're just being incredibly silly. Hell, you don't even need in-game information, just enough knowledge of Bioware that they wouldn't put someone in who was only twelve.

I also thought Merrill was very childlike. While you're correct that all elves do have that body type, her body type combined with her general naivete about the world and the things in it made her seem very young.

Exactly. It was abit off-putting.

While it may have been offputting, you're missing the point.  You had a choice, and you chose Isabela because Merrill wasn't to your taste, despite being female.  Your tastes said she seemed too young to be appealing.

Now imagine Isabela wasn't romanceable by your male Hawke, only Merrill was.  Then you have no choice if you want to play a het romance with your male Hawke.  This is the situation people who wanted to play a gay romance with their male Warden were faced with in DA:O if they didn't like Zevran.  Meanwhile, people who wanted to play a het romance with a male Warden, if they didn't care for Morrigan's attitude, could romance Leliana.  And if they didn't like Leliana's devoutness, they could romance Morrigan.

DA2's system is more fair, because there are two options if you want to play straight, and two if you want to play gay.  Plaintiff doesn't like Fenris (I believe - I could be wronf), but he had the option to go for Anders.  I don't care for Anders, but I had the option to go for Fenris.  If one of those two was straight, one of us would have been unhappy at having no choice except the one we don't like.  You didn't like Merrill (as a romance), so you went for Isabela.  Fair!

Ohh i have played plenty games where straight ones also only get 1 choice. Been there done that. Sometimes the romance has even been forced.

[Xilizhra]

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Spot on. Plus she also gets countless warnings about blood magic being bad. She even fights a few hundred abominations and whatsnot throughout the game. Still she ignores it up untill her fingers gets badly burned. Thats what kids do. Thinking bad things won`t happen to them.

Blood magic never harms her or anyone else in the slightest. The entire ending fiasco is Marethari's fault, spurred on by Audacity. Marethari is completely full of **** throughout the entire game.

Actually she pretty much took a bullet for Merrill. Merrill also screws up in that fade mission, I belive. She is extremely succeptible to possession and whatsnot.

Everyone is demonically mind controlled in the Fade. Also, Marethari didn't take a bullet; she took an unloaded gun, loaded it, then shot herself.

[jillabender]

Plaintiff wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Battlebloodmage: I disagree your statement that representation should be equal. While I'll choose the M/M option - I don't think I should have as many available as the heterosexual option (unless it's only 1 each).

If it "can" be done without someone citing "resources" - then fine - but if, for whatever reason, it were an issue - than I think the majority consumer should win out on this.

I might have this view because I'm a business owner and I make good money during Christmas time - and while I represent other holidays like Hanukkah - I'll never have equal quantities Christmas/Hanukkah - it would be a horrible business practice.

I'd much rather they spend their time trying to create a story that is something more than combat obstacle courses - instead of focusing too heavily on romances (unless they evolve and the romance becomes part of the story).

Anyway - just my two cents on that particular topic (of equal representation)

I don't understand exactly what it is you sell in this holiday analogy (decorations?), but it doesn't really apply to same-sex content in videogames. 'Christmas' and 'Hanukkah' are different categories of product, and someone who is looking for 'Christmas' isn't likely to be shopping for 'Hanukkah' and vice versa.

But Dragon Age 2 is the same game for everyone, and the same content is availble to everyone. There are not separate "Straight" and "Gay" editions of Dragon Age 2, both sets of content exist in the same product. If they were split into separate editions based on sexual content, then maybe it would make sense to produce more of one and less of the other, but since that's not what's happening, there is no good reason for gay romance to be less prevalent in the games than straight romance.

I completely agree with you, Plaintiff. I don't think there's any reason for same-sex romance to be less prevalent than straight romance in the Dragon Age games.

Modifié par jillabender, 16 février 2013 - 05:56 .

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Spot on. Plus she also gets countless warnings about blood magic being bad. She even fights a few hundred abominations and whatsnot throughout the game. Still she ignores it up untill her fingers gets badly burned. Thats what kids do. Thinking bad things won`t happen to them.

Blood magic never harms her or anyone else in the slightest. The entire ending fiasco is Marethari's fault, spurred on by Audacity. Marethari is completely full of **** throughout the entire game.

Actually she pretty much took a bullet for Merrill. Merrill also screws up in that fade mission, I belive. She is extremely succeptible to possession and whatsnot.

Everyone is demonically mind controlled in the Fade. Also, Marethari didn't take a bullet; she took an unloaded gun, loaded it, then shot herself.

Merrill was a loaded gun all through the game. It was like a 2 year old fickling with dynamite near a fireplace.

[Plaintiff]

Harle Cerulean wrote...
Plaintiff doesn't like Fenris (I believe - I could be wronf)

Don't worry, you're correct. Prior to the game's release, I thought his character sonded more interesting (also Anders wasn't confirmed as bisexual until closer to the release date, so as far as I knew Fenris was going to be my only option).

But when it came time to actually play, his attitude just turned me off completely.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 février 2013 - 05:28 .

[sarakirrer]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

[quote]Spot on. Plus she also gets countless warnings about blood magic being bad. She even fights a few hundred abominations and whatsnot throughout the game. Still she ignores it up untill her fingers gets badly burned. Thats what kids do. Thinking bad things won`t happen to them.[/quote]
Blood magic never harms her or anyone else in the slightest. The entire ending fiasco is Marethari's fault, spurred on by Audacity. Marethari is completely full of **** throughout the entire game.[/quote]
[/quote]

Assuming that you were only referring to Merrill's own blood magic never harming anyone (which is true if you do discount Marithari's loss at the end of her story arc), we don't really know the outcome of Merrill fixing the Eluvian, yet. Merrill fixed it towards the end of the game, so we haven't seen the consequences of her actions. We could see in DA:I that the Eluvian is completely harmless, or we could see that it really is a dangerous, evil artifact like Marethari thought. I just think it's too early to say whether or not Marethari was right about Merrill and the Eluvian.

[Rawgrim]

Xilizhra wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Spot on. Plus she also gets countless warnings about blood magic being bad. She even fights a few hundred abominations and whatsnot throughout the game. Still she ignores it up untill her fingers gets badly burned. Thats what kids do. Thinking bad things won`t happen to them.

Blood magic never harms her or anyone else in the slightest. The entire ending fiasco is Marethari's fault, spurred on by Audacity. Marethari is completely full of **** throughout the entire game.

Actually she pretty much took a bullet for Merrill. Merrill also screws up in that fade mission, I belive. She is extremely succeptible to possession and whatsnot.

Everyone is demonically mind controlled in the Fade. Also, Marethari didn't take a bullet; she took an unloaded gun, loaded it, then shot herself.

Aveline doesn`t get mind-controlled, by the way. Didn`t in my playthrough anyway.