114 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I want the option for my character to break into interpretive dance during certain conversations because I feel that that would contribute to gameplay and my emotional connection with the game/my protag.

Teagan can give tutoring lessons. 

[eroeru]

It won't let us be anything.

[Celene II]

No chance.

Bioware seems incapable of distinguishing between evil and dirt bag jerk.

Name calling, and punching people - thats not evil

Evil is getting the reward and keeping the item

Evil is wiping out an entire village for a good reward

Evil is not what bioware does.

[Wolfva2]

Siding with the Templars isn't evil. After all, they're sole motivation is to protect people from the abominations that mages may become. Even the most mage hating templar can be considered as seeing mages as nothing more then rabid animals. Sure, the rabies may be dormant, but eventually it will come to dominance and innocent people will suffer.

Siding with the Mages isn't evil. After all, each person should be judged on their own actions, not those of others. Just because some mages become abominations doesn't mean all will.

The thing about Bioware is there are seldom good and evil choices. Most of their choices are grey areas whose solution depends on the player's world view. Giving Isabella to the Qunari? That's turning a thief whose actions have caused widespread misery, death and destruction over to those whom she wronged for justice. Giving Merril to the Qunari while claiming she's really Isabella so you can trade the artifact for booze and an orgy room for you and Isabella? That might be considered evil. Giving Fenris to the Magister? Hey, that's just returning property to it's rightful owner...if you believe in slavery. Or hate emo broody elves. Shaving Varric's head while he sleeps? Funny, not evil. Shaving Dog while he sleeps? Pure, unadulterated evil which should result in your slow, painful death. Don't mess with Dog.

Like many things, 'evil' has many different definitions based on who you're talking to. Most people seem to think 'evil' is being a jerk. I'd say 'evil' is pure selfishness to the point of not caring how other people are affected.

I'm reminded of a Karl Edward Wagoner story involving his Kane character. Swords and sorcery stuff; anyways, Kane finds an evil sorceror who has been slaughtering young women. Evil mage, right? Well, turns out he was doing so to keep his daughter alive. Loving father, right? Depends on who you ask I suppose. Actually, the Kane books are good ones to read if you like the idea of an evil person as 'anti-hero'. Here's a guy cursed by the gods to immortality for killing his own brother. Sure, he saves the world, but only because if he doesn't he won't be able to conquer it.

[oberst2]

what about destroy or conquer kingdom or continet

[eroeru]

Evil is a character trait that makes you *prefer* others' ill.

I bet we won't have any evil characters even. I think there won't be even neutral interesting ones. Or ones that go beyond a very simple understanding of "alignments", as Loghain.

[Xilizhra]

Siding with the Templars isn't evil. After all, they're sole motivation is to protect people from the abominations that mages may become. Even the most mage hating templar can be considered as seeing mages as nothing more then rabid animals. Sure, the rabies may be dormant, but eventually it will come to dominance and innocent people will suffer.

Yes, and that makes them evil.

The thing about Bioware is there are seldom good and evil choices. Most of their choices are grey areas whose solution depends on the player's world view. Giving Isabella to the Qunari? That's turning a thief whose actions have caused widespread misery, death and destruction over to those whom she wronged for justice.

Really, nothing the qunari do can be considered just; their entire regime and society runs on evil.

[KiwiQuiche]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

I want the option for my character to break into interpretive dance during certain conversations because I feel that that would contribute to gameplay and my emotional connection with the game/my protag.

Teagan can give tutoring lessons. 

Ahaha I wouldn't complain.

[mickey111]

wtf does evil even mean? If you mean evil like Darth Malaks "Muhahahaha I will destroy everything I wanted to conquer!!!" from KotOR, well... WHAT THE **** MALAK??? That doesn't even make sense.

I do not want that **** in my game, not from my player character, not from Malak, not from the blood mages, Templars, the arch-demons etc.

An example from Starcraft 1: Arcturus uses the protagonists help to weaken the enemy and sabotague the confederation by placing ps-emiters which lure the zerg menace to destroy the confederate military. Arcturus uses the protagonist as a conveinent scrapegoat and steps into the confederate militarys old role as defenders of the people, asrcturus establishes the cominion, arcturus gets to be the hero. Does it all by lying, cheating, stealing and is okay with sacrificing a few million civilians to gain his power.

But Bioware won't do this becaue it will pretty much double their workload if they were to create a properly written path dedicated to the pursuit of power by stepping over dead people and stabbing backs.

Modifié par mickey111, 14 février 2013 - 08:09 .

[Hadeedak]

How would you even write that as a game protagonist? I mean, not someone who has to go along with the good guys to defeat the common enemy, but an outright smack-the-kitten-and-burn-the-puppies-for-loot evil character who could ALSO be the usual moral purist idealist so many of us like to play? It'd be challenging. And a little.... Well. I like my pragmatic, practical antiheroes, but I'm not sure how you'd even take a swan dive into the moral event horizon in the game, and where you'd go from there. All power and money, all the time? Press spacebar to cackle maniacally while your companions all stare at you?

Sidenote: Teagan is dancing to a jazz rendition of Halls of the Mountain King on my screen right now, and it's super distracting and hilarious. So thanks for that, guys.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 14 février 2013 - 09:19 .

[9TailsFox]

Xilizhra wrote...

The thing about Bioware is there are seldom good and evil choices. Most of their choices are grey areas whose solution depends on the player's world view. Giving Isabella to the Qunari? That's turning a thief whose actions have caused widespread misery, death and destruction over to those whom she wronged for justice.

Really, nothing the qunari do can be considered just; their entire regime and society runs on evil.

You just proved that he is right. Do I agree with you? From what I saw in game yes. Dos it mean we are right? Maybe. It just our opinion.

[Goneaviking]

Celene II wrote...

No chance.

Bioware seems incapable of distinguishing between evil and dirt bag jerk.

Name calling, and punching people - thats not evil

Evil is getting the reward and keeping the item

Evil is wiping out an entire village for a good reward

Evil is not what bioware does.

Evil was offing Jowan in his cell and then shouting down my companions when they try to offer alternatives to just going an killing the Arl's son.

When I destroyed the sacred ashes just because they appeared to prove the validity of a religion my character didn't share, and then killed my lover when she took offense. That was evil too.

[Goneaviking]

kathic wrote...

Morrigan may not place much (or any) value on the lives of those she considers unimportant but that does not make her evil. She has lived her whole life with her mother in the woods. It is not unreasonable that she has different priorities. Again I would argue that no good character is either good or evil. A character needs to be relatable and that means motivations. These motivations can be something we don't fully understand like "insanity" but you can't be evil for evil's sake. It is not compelling. 

The presence of motivations and priorities don't necessarily mean a character's behaviour and outlook don't fall comfortably fit within traditionally accepted definitions of evil.  They aren't evil for the sake of being evil, but that doesn't mean they aren't evil.

[Urazz]

There are some options to be evil but in general most choices in Bioware games tend to have some sort of reasoning or justification to them.

[Lennard Testarossa]

I'd rather have the option to be power-hungry rather than just a shortsighted brute. Most "evil" options are just "Give me gold or I hit you!" or being an **** for no reason. They almost never have any real payoff. I mean, the gold you got for selling Fenris was just laughable.

I do not think "evil" has any real appeal if being a nice guy gets you the same (or even better) results.

In short, I'd like something along the lines of the Practical Incarnation of PS:T.

[shootist70]

I don't think the DA series or the ME series were ever meant to be choices between good or evil. They were meant to be 'hero' or 'anti-hero', but even anti-heroes usually do the right thing in the end.

Bioware just never pulled off the whole anti-hero thing very well, in the same way that something like Red Dead Redemption does. The Bioware anti-hero is more of an obnoxious jerk than anything else.

[Wulfram]

You can do anti-hero in Bioware games. Just don't pick the bad guy choices when they're more "jerk" than "anti-hero".

[Dave of Canada]

You're implying that evil is a concept which exists rather than the world actually being spectrum of gray.

I disagree.

[Twisted Path]

Oh yeah, don't these threads tend to degenerate into philosophical arguments over whether evil really exists?

Murdering people, murdering people and taking their stuff, enslaving people, taking stuff from people who need that stuff, and selling people to demons are things I would consider evil, or at least things I would consider evil choices in a roleplaying game. Like...if I'm playing the game and a demon offers to leave me alone if I give him the soul of an orphan I'll instantly think "That's the evil choice." I don't think it matters whether evil truely exists or whatever, since we're talking about actions that people consider "evil" in a roleplaying video game.

I'd like choices like that (though preferably a bit less cartoony,) in any roleplaying game. I do think that games where you're playing a sort of wandering mercenary (Fallout: New Vegas, Baldur's Gate, Skyrim, Dragon Age 2,) do lend themselves better to mouthwash-twirling villain moves than games where you're on a big crucial mission (like Alpha Protocol, Mass Effect, Dragon Age: Origins, etc.)

In world-saving games hero vs. anti-hero choices make more sense. An example would be: you've just defeated an enemy and he's surrendered. Do you spare him or administer frontier justice? Or: do you rush through and complete your mission if it means lots of civilian casualties or do you do it the hard way and try to save as many lives as possible?

Dragon Age: Origins managed to give you both a lot of opportunities to be a goody-two-shoes, an anti-hero and a mouthwash-twirling villain, which I thought was quite a feat.

[Medhia Nox]

I think it would be safer to ask if specific actions were going to be made available.

[Fast Jimmy]

Evil is apathy in the face of the suffering of others.

Therefore, with Hawke, we got evil in spades.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Evil is apathy in the face of the suffering of others.

I dispute that indifference ever equates with evil.

But, given the difficulties in defining evil, I instead would request the chance to play a self-interested character.

[Androme]

Impossible.

Go play Skyrim There you can be a completely evil character, because it's an open world game, unlike the DA series.

[ReallyRue]

You can let Meredith kill Bethany in DA2 with your blessing. If that's not evil, I don't know what is.

Right on a level with Tabris letting Vaughn have Shianni/Tevinters sacrifice Cyrion, which is one of the few things I've never been able to do.