114 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Fast Jimmy: Part of me feels like Hawke was actually too stupid to really understand what was going on around him - which is sorta even worse.

As for "evil" - I think people break the concept down into its components too often and call those evil - I would say that evil requires both apathy in the face of the suffering of others AND self-interest (to combine your comment with Sylvius)... but that separately neither of them equate to "evil".

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 14 février 2013 - 09:38 .

[once-ler]

I think the furthest they'd let us get is probably an anti-hero.
The DA series never seemed like one that would let us fall into the dark side.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Medhia Nox wrote...

As for "evil" - I think people break the concept down into its components too often and call those evil - I would say that evil requires both apathy in the face of the suffering of others AND self-interest (to combine your comment with Sylvius)... but that separately neither of them equate to "evil".

Evil requires malice.  Apathy isn't malicious.

Nor is self-interest.

[Nashimura]

TJPags wrote...

I just want to be able to hunt and kill mages.

If that's evil, then fine.

You uhhh....not a fan of mages eh?

[TJPags]

Nashimura wrote...

TJPags wrote...

I just want to be able to hunt and kill mages.

If that's evil, then fine.

You uhhh....not a fan of mages eh?

No, it's not that, actually.

I've just seen too many mages in these game go all abomination or just plain idiot - particularly in DA2 - to care about their freedom anymore.

Plus, I'm not particularly interested in the mage-templar conflict, and figure the easiest and fastest way to end it would be to slaughter every mage.

[Viktoria Landers]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can be quite hideously evil in DA2 if you side with the templars at the end. If DAI gives you the same option, rest assured that your evilness need not know bounds.

That's just wrong.

DAO had some options where you were truly evil and I want to see them again in DA:I

[Chiramu]

It would be cool to have your PC be an abomination and slowly get more corrupted through the storyline. That makes me think of Illidan's corruption in Warcraft 3, I wish I could have demon wings on an evil PC .

[zombitologist]

 I think it'd be interesting to roleplay as a ruthless inquisitor biased against mages or templars and willing to kill wantonly.

[Medhia Nox]

@Sylvius the Mad: Evil requires apathy and self-interest as well as malice.

Malice - by itself - is not evil. Malice is a desire - not an action. I was full of malice as a child - and though I did rarely act upon it - far more often than not, it was simply an ill thought.

Again - evil is an amalgam of many things - it cannot be said to be any one thing by itself - except, of course, for evil.

Anyway - a game forum is ill equipped for an ethical discussion.

[Malsumis]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can be quite hideously evil in DA2 if you side with the templars at the end. If DAI gives you the same option, rest assured that your evilness need not know bounds.

Nope both DA:O and DA2 was the Hero/anti-hero paths. Mass effect was the same.

Bio has completly dropped the path of the villain in their SP games. TOR had, but it couldn't not have it.. Jade Empire did it best.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

In DA:O we can be evil person who kill just for fun like this merchant ignoring reward or just throw knife into poor guy for nothing  .In DA 2 we can only be jerk at worst if you choose agresive hawke or sometimes snarky.I rather prefer play as good guy but i like for time to time play as complete monster or  sociopath who cares only about himself.And what you would like to be free to prefer to act like a complete monster, or maybe just playing as jerk is enough for you?

With BioWare's personality design philosophy? No charater can be made. There're can only be pre-define playable characters to select from the list ( of 3 dominant personalities like in DA 2 ).Each and everyone characters will be railroaded and "roleplayed" by BioWare into generic goody goody shoes characters who appear to be caring, friendly, helpful. Someone who automated talk and act, all on itself completely independant from player control. So what's the point? You may as well, play a dvd movie and watch the charater play by itself for 2 hours straight non-stop.

[Goneaviking]

Malsumis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You can be quite hideously evil in DA2 if you side with the templars at the end. If DAI gives you the same option, rest assured that your evilness need not know bounds.

Nope both DA:O and DA2 was the Hero/anti-hero paths. Mass effect was the same.

Bio has completly dropped the path of the villain in their SP games. TOR had, but it couldn't not have it.. Jade Empire did it best.

I've never played a game where you could be the villain. Evil certainly, but never a villain. 

Villains are proactive, they're what sets the game in motion and create the conflict that needs to be resolved.

It's always been hero/anti-hero. Always will be, though sometimes with an extra helping of viciousness attached to the protagonist.

If anyone can tell me how you can be a villain AND stop the blight (or thwart the Reapers etc.) I'd be willing to hear you out.

[The Six Path of Pain]

I don't know about being evil...An anti-hero who will not let anyone get in his way and is willing to do anything and everything to accomplish his goal(Which includes Bribery,deceit,and murder etc.)would be awesome.Badasses like the Punisher or Kratos come to mind

[Malsumis]

Goneaviking wrote...
I've never played a game where you could be the villain. Evil certainly, but never a villain. 

Villains are proactive, they're what sets the game in motion and create the conflict that needs to be resolved.

At the end of both Kotor and JE, based on certain choices, the PC was the villain of the story.

Goneaviking wrote...
It's always been hero/anti-hero. Always will be, though sometimes with
an extra helping of viciousness attached to the protagonist.

I can only assume you haven't played older bioware games(NWN HotU, Kotor JE). Because if you had, you would realize this is just wrong.

NWN2, MoTB(best villain/evil rpg ), FO:NV, TOR also provide example of how wrong this statement is.

Goneaviking wrote...
If anyone can tell me how you can be a villain AND stop the blight (or thwart the Reapers etc.) I'd be willing to hear you out.

Due to the way ME was written, it was essentially impossible to be the villain. DA:O while still not an evil/villain path, did allow enough flexibility in sub quests to allow the PC to not just be a hero. DA2 however went completely the way of ME hero/anti-hero and was poorer for it.

[esper]

Goneaviking wrote...

Celene II wrote...

No chance.

Bioware seems incapable of distinguishing between evil and dirt bag jerk.

Name calling, and punching people - thats not evil

Evil is getting the reward and keeping the item

Evil is wiping out an entire village for a good reward

Evil is not what bioware does.

Evil was offing Jowan in his cell and then shouting down my companions when they try to offer alternatives to just going an killing the Arl's son.

When I destroyed the sacred ashes just because they appeared to prove the validity of a religion my character didn't share, and then killed my lover when she took offense. That was evil too.

But the is not the only motivation for those choices.

If you off Jowan because the warden thinks that this is the only way to get justice for his poisoning the Earl (Or an warden who is not genre savy enough and flat out believe that then blood mage is not behind the skeletons) then it is not evil. And neiter is telling your companion to shut up evil. It is being a jerk, but that is something different.

It is not evil either to kill Conner if you believe that it is the only to protect Recliffe, similar arguements can be made for the ashes and your lover attacked your first.

We cannot have evil choices because we cannot agree on an definition of evil. Evil is dependant on point of view and it is useless to demand that bioware give us evil choices because we are not going to agree on them being evil.

I have had two Hawkes doing the same thing, one because she was a manipulatiuve **** and wanted a certain result, the other did the exact same thing out of the goodness of her heart.

....

I would like more selfish, jerkish, manipulative (Espically this) and just plain out more ambitous choices, and... what is the english word malicious choices.

[Kingthlayer]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

kathic wrote...

Muahahhahhaa I will destroy the world! Why you ask? I never really thought about it. I am just evil I guess.


This is why evil characters don't work. People are not good and evil. They have motivations.

Eww Morrigan she insults me if i do something good every time well my character have motivation but like kill guy for giggles if he can or for the better push blacksmith to suicade telling her daughter is dead (you lie him) and what you gain better blacksmith with better items (awsome bow probably the best in the game) and you can tell new blacksmith than you are family previous blacksmith and he will give you item his daughter. I don't say abaout character who attack everone but abaout intelligent Chaotic evil guy who manipulate to gain and kill useless guy for fun.In DA 2 we can be at worst Chaotic neutral jerk sure you can betray isabela and fenris or let you know what do bethany (witch fits with evil choices) but still Hakwe are too caring . In Da:O evil path i lied leliana abaout ashes , shale abaout cadrian and companions love my character because i cheating them and at the end i betray alistair who think that i'm his best friend and i let him die whit making fun of him and next i sacrificed Loghain . Yes that character was really despicable.       

The fact that you even did the blacksmith quest shows you aren't evil.  An evil person would leave the village and let it burn.

And I don't think lying to Leliana or Shale is evil.  Chosing between Alistair and Loghain is also not an evil decision.  Too many people try to define their choices as good vs evil, it's why Mass Effects morality system sucks.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Sylvius the Mad: Evil requires apathy and self-interest as well as malice.

I wasn't claiming malice was a sufficient condition.  I was claiming it was a necessary condition.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

The fact that you even did the blacksmith quest shows you aren't evil.  An evil person would leave the village and let it burn.

Depends why you did it.

After all, there are certainly "good" reasons to let the village be destroyed.  Why can't there be "evil" reasons to save it?

[Medhia Nox]

I believe the misconception is that a person gets to decide whether what they do is evil or not.

You cannot decide if your actions are "evil" - other people choose whether your actions are ultimately evil.

OH - I kill babies, but they could have been evil babies - so I did it out of the kindness of my heart. Nobody will care what your intent was.

[esper]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I believe the misconception is that a person gets to decide whether what they do is evil or not.

You cannot decide if your actions are "evil" - other people choose whether your actions are ultimately evil.

OH - I kill babies, but they could have been evil babies - so I did it out of the kindness of my heart. Nobody will care what your intent was.

Actually if you can convince enough people that it was indeed evil babies and that you was justified in the act, then the act stop being evil for that particular group.

You do in every way get to decide if the act is evil or not.

I as a player thinks siding with the templars are 'evil' because I as a player thinks that the templars are so morally corrupt that there really is no legitimate excuse for their actions. Thus if I made a pro-templar character I would made a character who I, as a player, made escpially to be evil and I would percieve it as such.

The character, however, will have their own internal logical and likely not find their actions evil. And neither would a rather large base of BSN and good portion of Thedas.

My point is that evil is subjective. So in fact the only why to decide if an act is evil or not is to is to decide if you as a person find the current act evil. If you don't well then you are not acting evil. Of course it will be better for your own inclusion into society to find the actions of 'evil' and 'good' somewhere along the lines of the society you live in so that you don't find yourself arrested for various sort of society disturbing actions (or outright destructive actions).

Of course just because that you don't find a certain action evil, doesn't mean anybody agrees with you. And if enough disagree with you, you might have a problem functioning. Whereever the action is evil or not can always be discussed, though.

Modifié par esper, 18 février 2013 - 09:30 .

[Medhia Nox]

@esper: LOL - okay.

[esper]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@esper: LOL - okay.

...

And for some reason I always get offeneded when people write LOL to me. It is a sign that they don't take me seriosly. I don't see any reason to be laughing out loud, in my response to you, and can only think that you are shrugging my whole answer off.

...

In any case, how exactly am I suppossed to respond to this? If you say something is a misconception of course I am going to explain my position.

Modifié par esper, 18 février 2013 - 09:30 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

esper wrote...

Actually if you can convince enough people that it was indeed evil babies and that you was justified in the act, then the act stop being evil for that particular group.

That's a hardcore moral relativist position.  Any moral realist would disagree pretty strongly.

[Ziegrif]

Well.
You guys ask if you can be evil, I'll ask will I be able to peel off my enemies faces with a hacksaw?
Everyone is a hero of their own story. So the concept of evil is in the eye of the beholder. The ''evil'' character usually doesn't realize what he's doing is considered ''evil'' extreme maybe but always for the greater good. Of course there are things and actions that make someone just laugh and these may be evil... I just want these moments. Raining death on the enemy while laughing uncotrollably is oddly terapheutic.
Now where'd I put my power tools?

Modifié par Ziegrif, 18 février 2013 - 11:25 .