313 réponses à ce sujet

[chemiclord]

I'd argue the story didn't go far ENOUGH into the bleak.

Part of the reason people were so furious about the "no real victory" ending was because ME3 had the feel that there was going to be some critical event at the 11th hour that would turn the tide. Shepard (and by extension the player) really didn't get beaten down... the necessary cost really didn't ever sink in.

Part of it was that while you HEAR about the allied forces getting creamed at every turn... you don't really SEE it. In fact, up until Thessia, everything Shepard does is a rousing success.

Which brings up problem #2, the only real "defeat" Shepard has in ME3 doesn't feel like a defeat at all, mostly because the Kai Leng fight was handled so poorly. You go from decimating the clown to getting bested in a cut scene. It doesn't work. It doesn't lend ANY weight to the story. The player just feels cheated.

ME3 really needed to SLAM the "sadness hammer" down if they wanted fans to accept the "victory scenario" as presented. Have Shepard BARELY scrape out objectives, and only with IMMENSE cost that is clearly evident.

How many players would have been a bit more willing to accept the lesser moral evil of their choice if by the end, the crew that they had come to appreciate over 3 games was down to a quarter of their number (or hell, down to the two other people left in your party), and have Shepard look back to see those survivors and know, "If I don't choose SOMETHING here, they ALL are lost."?

To make an audience accept a "bittersweet" scenario, you have to present that the alternative to their actions is just "bitter." Instead, ME3 gives pixie sticks at nearly every turn, then is surprised that no one tastes the sugar in the dark chocolate at the end.

Modifié par chemiclord, 16 février 2013 - 11:10 .

[Epique Phael767]

 The general sadness of the storyline was fine for me, but I prefer darker games like Majora's Mask, and compared to it, ME is mild. The only thing I didn't like about the saaddened atmosphere was the forced grief over starbrat. It was like the writers were saying "YOU FEEL THIS."

[MageTarot]

chemiclord wrote...

I'd argue the story didn't go far ENOUGH into the bleak.

You have to look at it from a commercial standpoint. My personal take is that I don't think players would fork over $60 or more out of the box for a storyline of unrelenting gloom and hopelessness.


 I'm not sure if you were around when the first wave of players who finished the game hit the forums but boy howdy it wasn't pretty.  Many players were unpleasantly surprised with how dark ME3 was. I can only imagine the carnage on here if the story was even more devastating.


Naturally there are players who very much like their games to be dark, and there are players who don't. The trick for ME3 was to appease both camps. The fact that we're discussing the storyline almost a year aftet the game's release shows that the attempt was not entirely successful.

[chemiclord]

MageTarot wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'd argue the story didn't go far ENOUGH into the bleak.

You have to look at it from a commercial standpoint. My personal take is that I don't think players would fork over $60 or more out of the box for a storyline of unrelenting gloom and hopelessness.


 I'm not sure if you were around when the first wave of players who finished the game hit the forums but boy howdy it wasn't pretty.  Many players were unpleasantly surprised with how dark ME3 was. I can only imagine the carnage on here if the story was even more devastating.


Naturally there are players who very much like their games to be dark, and there are players who don't. The trick for ME3 was to appease both camps. The fact that we're discussing the storyline almost a year aftet the game's release shows that the attempt was not entirely successful.

I was here.  And the general rage wasn't necessary how "bleak" it was... but that it wasn't what fans felt they "deserved"... or that they were "lied to"... or that it was simply a terrible ending to an otherwise great game.

And there's NO way to appease both camps, as both camps want mutually exclusive things.  Even if given the option between a "grimdark" and a "golden" ending, the "golden" ending becomes inherently the "right" one... if you didn't get that, you did something "wrong" (see also ME2's suicide mission).

If Bioware wanted to present a tough moral decision with no obvious right answer (a lesser of in this case three evils), frankly... they needed to set the stage properly that doing nothing would be catastrophically worse.  They went FAR too easy on fan sensibilities for the ending they wanted to be received with anything but raw betrayal.

Now the argument that could (and probably should) be made is that Mass Effect was NOT a series that had been leading to this sort of "artsy" conclusion, and you'd probably be right.  It was a fairly formulaic space opera up until about the last ten minutes of ME3... then went somewhere that it had no real business going.

Modifié par chemiclord, 17 février 2013 - 02:12 .

[nrobbiec]

Despite myself I do like gritty and bleak. First time around ME3 was my first exposure to the franchise, it scared me when Eva beat up Kaidan, Mordin's death scene was tragic (have never cured the genophage since), the Quarians getting wiped out and Tali's suicide...
The prologue and the whole Thessia arc give me chills even now.

The slide show is where I think the sad hammer got a little heavy but I guess I've just never forgiven it for making me cry, especially first time when Shep died.
It still gets to me today, just beautiful, largely thanks to the soundtrack. Without my happy headcanon epilogue I'd probably be an emotional wreck

[Reclusiarch]

I liked how they presented the dark themes and experience it was totally awesome. Good job, BioWare.

[RedBeardJim]

chemiclord wrote...

MageTarot wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

I'd argue the story didn't go far ENOUGH into the bleak.

You have to look at it from a commercial standpoint. My personal take is that I don't think players would fork over $60 or more out of the box for a storyline of unrelenting gloom and hopelessness.


 I'm not sure if you were around when the first wave of players who finished the game hit the forums but boy howdy it wasn't pretty.  Many players were unpleasantly surprised with how dark ME3 was. I can only imagine the carnage on here if the story was even more devastating.


Naturally there are players who very much like their games to be dark, and there are players who don't. The trick for ME3 was to appease both camps. The fact that we're discussing the storyline almost a year aftet the game's release shows that the attempt was not entirely successful.

I was here.  And the general rage wasn't necessary how "bleak" it was... but that it wasn't what fans felt they "deserved"... or that they were "lied to"... or that it was simply a terrible ending to an otherwise great game.

And there's NO way to appease both camps, as both camps want mutually exclusive things.  Even if given the option between a "grimdark" and a "golden" ending, the "golden" ending becomes inherently the "right" one... if you didn't get that, you did something "wrong" (see also ME2's suicide mission).

If Bioware wanted to present a tough moral decision with no obvious right answer (a lesser of in this case three evils), frankly... they needed to set the stage properly that doing nothing would be catastrophically worse.  They went FAR too easy on fan sensibilities for the ending they wanted to be received with anything but raw betrayal.

Now the argument that could (and probably should) be made is that Mass Effect was NOT a series that had been leading to this sort of "artsy" conclusion, and you'd probably be right.  It was a fairly formulaic space opera up until about the last ten minutes of ME3... then went somewhere that it had no real business going.

Someone on another forum put it like this: "You can have Red Dead Redemption's ending, but you need to put in the time and effort to actually be Red Dead Redemption first."

[EnvyTB075]

Its not so much "appeasing" as it is writing a GOOD grim/dark story. It requires effort, something that ME3's plot seems to lack.

ME3 has about as much grim/dark as a carebears episode. Spec Ops' story isn't exaclty pretty, yet its the best story in any game i played last year.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 17 février 2013 - 05:55 .

[AlanC9]

chemiclord wrote...

Which brings up problem #2, the only real "defeat" Shepard has in ME3 doesn't feel like a defeat at all, mostly because the Kai Leng fight was handled so poorly. You go from decimating the clown to getting bested in a cut scene. It doesn't work. It doesn't lend ANY weight to the story. The player just feels cheated.

In Bio's defense, they had gotten away with something quite similar in KotOR. The first Malak fight is against a pretty weak version of Malak. I guess it worked there because Malak had more villain cred built up.

[JBPBRC]

I felt they tried way too hard with the sad hammer.

That being said, the game could've certainly been darker in terms of the overall war, just not in the way they were going for with the sad piano music and all that jazz.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 17 février 2013 - 07:09 .

[EnvyTB075]

Needed more moments like the low EMS beam run, where your buddies get vaporised by Reaperbeams.

That scares me every time i see it on YT, glad i played enough MP to get a good enough EMS no matter what i do in the campaign itself.

[Postman778]

When I look to the trailer of ME3 I see the Reapers attacking, I see destruction and cruelty, people being transformed into husks.
But on the other hand I see Shepard who is acting resolutely and is determined to fight. Look at his/her face in the trailer. I don´t see agony in the face, but the will to accomplish the mission, to take back earth.
And then I look back to the game and feeled forced to feel that way, or the other way.
And to be honest, the feeling of the cruelty of war never really came up for me. The small hospital on the citadel, while the fly-cars are passing by outside, makes the scenes more like "oh, a traffic accident with several casualties occured." The refugee area is ok, but not overwhelming nor did I really get the feeling of galactic-wide war.
There are only some minor hints concerning cruelty, the burned corpse lying on the bed and the radio instruction of how to stop bleeding.
Thessia was a beautiful planet, sun is shining and yes, some reapers around, trying to destroy some buildings.
I don´t feel their might in that scenes, while I was feared of Sovereign.

I always think, that the intention was that cruelty and sadness should be transported by words, while I don´t really see it. But it utterly fails. So I cannot understand why my Shepard has nightmares, why my Shepard seemed to be depressed, although my Shepard was always straight forward, always thinking positive.

Modifié par Postman778, 17 février 2013 - 07:21 .