313 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is tryingto savethe galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

I actually agree with this for the most part.  Shepard had the final thing he/she needed to finish the crucible and go back and save Earth, and lost it.  Now the future of Earth is bleak and unknown.  I just don't think that's something anyone would just brush off and like it was nothing big.

[Indy_S]

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is tryingto savethe galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

Usually, the emotion of a scene is pretty easy to deduce. The composition and the music generally tell you this. The piano music in this game is a 'this is a sad scene' indicator when the only scene that has it and actually feels sad is the one where Liara is showing off her time capsule. The sense of inevitability and hopelessness is conveyed effectively there, unlike in other instances.

The locker scene from the first game was a result of frustration towards the beauracracy and as a result, it was carthartic when you were given a job to do by Joker and Anderson. ME3 doesn't use frustration as a setup for catharthis except for one case: Kai Bloody Leng.

[DeinonSlayer]

Aaleel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is tryingto savethe galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

I actually agree with this for the most part.  Shepard had the final thing he/she needed to finish the crucible and go back and save Earth, and lost it.  Now the future of Earth is bleak and unknown.  I just don't think that's something anyone would just brush off and like it was nothing big.

I wanted the option to chew out Tevos; I'm instead forced to apologize to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari hadn't sat on that beacon for so long.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

How does thessia or Legion's death not work?

Thessia doesn't work because its based on the premise that Shepard failed and Kai Leng beat them. In the actual game, Shepard can stomp Kai Leng into the ground, by the magical power of cutscenes saves Leng. It's forcing he player to lose and forcing the planet to burn, for no good reason other than to contrive emotion and pad gameplay time by forcing Sanctuary on you. The forced apologies by Shepard while talking to the councilor only serve to hammer this in.

Legion's death doesn't work because it-

A. Contradicts how the geth operate, and
B. Shows that Bioware doesn't know how technology works

Even within the context of the story, there is no reason whatsoever for Legion to die. In fact, Legion shouldn't have a singular identity.

1.So that  gun ship was never their in the first place? Sure, Shepard can esaily beat Kai Leng, but how Kai Lang got the better of Shepard did not come out of the blue. You don't think a group that work with Shepard and seen all Shepard's tactics would not develop a way counter his/her abilities?
2.a.With Legion's death on the "Contradicts how the geth operate" we already saw how Legions beleifs change the moment we talked to him after get to the normady. It's a case of the moment on hand made there beleif mute because it would lead to destruction. Are they to blindly fallow saidbelief it  lead to there races death?
b. Don't see how he death applies that.

[dreman9999]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is tryingto savethe galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

I actually agree with this for the most part.  Shepard had the final thing he/she needed to finish the crucible and go back and save Earth, and lost it.  Now the future of Earth is bleak and unknown.  I just don't think that's something anyone would just brush off and like it was nothing big.

I wanted the option to chew out Tevos; I'm instead forced to apologize to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari hadn't sat on that beacon for so long.

Ok, that I can agree with.

[KBomb]

The only thing that felt sad to me was Mordin and Legion's death. The rest of it didn't feel "real" to me. I felt that I couldn't attach myself to the "sadness" that I was suppose to be feeling. The child and the whole symbolism of his presence felt like it was being pushed on me. I think the impact of the dreams and seeing the Catalyst at the end would have packed a bigger punch had the child been replaced with the VS. That would have felt natural. They would have represented Shepard's loss and guilt so much more than a child we had no prior connection with.

Thessia was suppose to represent Shepard's defeat, but instead of letting us feel that sense of being beaten and lost, it seemed as if it became about Liara and the loss of her planet. After seeing Palaven and Earth devastated, why would Thessia be any more important? It was important because it was Shepard's failure--but it didn't come off that way. I have to agree with the poster who said he felt no sympathy for Thessia. I felt nothing.

The only real sadness I felt was at the list of missed opportunities that could have been something real, ala The Walking Dead, but instead seemed a bit forced and plastic.

[EnvyTB075]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I wanted the option to chew out Tevos; I'm instead forced to apologize to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari hadn't sat on that beacon for so long.

As did I my friend, as did I. But no, apparently Thessia is the most important planet in the Galaxy and the Asari are the greatest species ever...or somthing. They can do no wrong it seems.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 14 février 2013 - 02:41 .

[4stringwizard]

Aaleel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is tryingto savethe galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

I actually agree with this for the most part.  Shepard had the final thing he/she needed to finish the crucible and go back and save Earth, and lost it.  Now the future of Earth is bleak and unknown.  I just don't think that's something anyone would just brush off and like it was nothing big.

I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

[dreman9999]

Indy_S wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is trying to save the galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

Usually, the emotion of a scene is pretty easy to deduce. The composition and the music generally tell you this. The piano music in this game is a 'this is a sad scene' indicator when the only scene that has it and actually feels sad is the one where Liara is showing off her time capsule. The sense of inevitability and hopelessness is conveyed effectively there, unlike in other instances.

The locker scene from the first game was a result of frustration towards the beauracracy and as a result, it was carthartic when you were given a job to do by Joker and Anderson. ME3 doesn't use frustration as a setup for catharthis except for one case: Kai Bloody Leng.

Sorry but even that does fine tunely defind the enotion on hand. It still let the the player. You say the time capsule was sad. I saw it as bitters sweet. Get my point.

The locker scene was no different the how Shepard acted out after thesisa. Both times Shepard is upset and fustrated because the goal Sheperdis trying to get to is happered by the events that perviously happen.
It you were trying to save the galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you,you wouldn't  be upset?

[Aaleel]

4stringwizard wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is tryingto savethe galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

I actually agree with this for the most part.  Shepard had the final thing he/she needed to finish the crucible and go back and save Earth, and lost it.  Now the future of Earth is bleak and unknown.  I just don't think that's something anyone would just brush off and like it was nothing big.

I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

Those weren't humans.  Shepard's purpose in the game is gathering an army, and building the crucible for the purpose of going back and saving Earth.  Plus those other things were decisions Shepard made, but in this instance Earth may have been lost due to Shepard's failings in not getting the Catalyst.

I can see being mad at the Asari, but I just think they're too many people acting like they wouldn't bat an eye if Earth were being destroyed and they just lost the only means of saving it due to their failure. 

Modifié par Aaleel, 14 février 2013 - 02:47 .

[DeinonSlayer]

As I recall, the locker scene didn't put words in Shepard's mouth. We were still pretty much free to feel however we wanted at that scene.

I think my Shepard was contemplating how he'd go about introducing Udina to his combat knife right about then...

[dreman9999]

4stringwizard wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is tryingto savethe galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

I actually agree with this for the most part.  Shepard had the final thing he/she needed to finish the crucible and go back and save Earth, and lost it.  Now the future of Earth is bleak and unknown.  I just don't think that's something anyone would just brush off and like it was nothing big.

I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

[o Ventus]

Kai Leng beating most certainly does come out of the blue. It's a 3v1 battle. My own Shepard is a Sentinel. Overload Kai Leng's shields, proceed to shoot repeatedly in the head. I also have Javik and James with me. Javik could Slam Leng into the ground with over 2000 Newtons of force. Failing that somehow doesn't kill him, James has Carnage, which is an incendiary burst of particles. Shepard also has Warp and Cry Blast. Realistically speaking, Leng would be the deadest person in the galaxy.

Also, counter Shepard's abilities? What abilities does Shepard have that are unique to him or her? Even if Leg somehow managed to counter Shepard, there's still his 2 squadmates. He's outnumbered and outgunned.

In general, Legion is a living contradiction in ME3. The fact that his writer is different in ME3 is a testament to this. He geth are software, not hardware. There was no reason for Legion to die permanently, he could have just copied himself and uploaded himself into another body, or back into the larger consensus. Also, as a gestalt intelligence, the idea that Legion has any individuality immediately before dying is absolutely retarded, unless 1183 unique people all inhabit his body at the same time, speaking in singular first person pronouns. That any geth at all behave this way is simply wrong.

[Aaleel]

I will say that Bioware did a terrible job of developing your bond with Earth during the course of the game. They just banked on a natural tie to Earth based on RL.

It was kind of like DA2 when they gave you a family and barely let you get to know them before they started killing them off, trusting you would care just because they were labeled family.

[dreman9999]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

As I recall, the locker scene didn't put words in Shepard's mouth. We were still pretty much free to feel however we wanted at that scene.

I think my Shepard was contemplating how he'd go about introducing Udina to his combat knife right about then...

But it did directly difine an emotion for the player. It matter not that it did not put word in his mouth, it still illustraded an emotion with out player input. Shepard seen angrully slamming his/her locker does not open up to other emotions.

[DeinonSlayer]

dreman9999 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The thing is, the emotion players experienced when they told Ereba about Charr was real. After the kid's death, after Thessia, after Tuchanka ("I'll sleep when I'm dead..." another spacebar moment), we were being told how to feel instead of experiencing the emotion ourselves.

You can say this if the game and main character directly explains what emotions they are feeling. It soundsmore that you assuming that the game is forcing what emotion is felt.

Roloplaing wise, as a person who is tryingto savethe galexy and the last peace need for that was taken from under you, why wouldn't yoube upset?
It's just like the locker scene when the normady was locked down in ME1.

I actually agree with this for the most part.  Shepard had the final thing he/she needed to finish the crucible and go back and save Earth, and lost it.  Now the future of Earth is bleak and unknown.  I just don't think that's something anyone would just brush off and like it was nothing big.

I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

AutoShep assumes responsibility for the fall of Thessia, right after apologizing to Tevos. This can be the same Shepard who already killed two squadmates and committed genocide three times by this point of the narrative without blinking an eye - even going so far as to blame the victims in some cases. Even if Shepard's hands are clean, this Shepard can then immediately goes downstairs and insists what happened isn't Liara's fault, then go to the Citadel, lie to Wrex about sabotaging the cure, then lie about why Wrex attacked (my chronology might be off there - a betrayed Wrex comes for you after Thessia, right?).

[4stringwizard]

dreman9999 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

So why was Shepard forced to apologize?  Why was he forced to be a d1ck to Joker for making a joke about the Asari?  These sorces of scenes shouldn't be forced on the player.  Balance it out; at least give us some control.  That was one of ME3's flaws - taking Shepard out of your hands. 

Modifié par 4stringwizard, 14 février 2013 - 02:52 .

[Jadebaby]

fainmaca wrote...

Jadebaby wrote...

To answer this I'll go by a case-by-case point.

Joker's sister story = Appropriate.
Mordin's death = Appropriate.
Grunt's death/near-death = Appropriate.
Casualties on Earth = Appropriate.
Fall of Thessia = Appropriate.
Other squadmate stories = Appropriate.
Victus' Son = Appropriate.


Ending= Overboard.
The Kid= Overboard.
Legion's death = Overboard.
Samara's death = Overboard.


From this it might seem that they got most of it right. However, the feelings towards the kid is a continual thing through-out the game. And the ending is a major part of not only the game but the entire trilogy. They shouldn't have tried to force anything there. Just bring it down for a safe landing.

I'd agree with most of this, except for Earth and Thessia.

In neither case are we given in-universe experience of these locations beforehand so that we can really feel for them when they fall. I only ever saw Earth for five minutes before I was whisked away, and never saw Thessia before it was on fire. Considering how important they are to the setting and how shocking it is meant to be to see them fall, we don't have enough connection, in spite of all the 'feel sad nao!' stuff that gets flung at us.

Would have been far more effective to let us go to these places before they fell, then seeing them in ashes as they fall would have an actual impact.

Example: In KOTOR, Dantooine. We spend a good portion of the game on this peaceful planet. Then, near to the end, we find out its been razed to the ground, and we cannot return. Then in KOTOR2 we go back, and see how royally ruined it is. Knowing wwhat we know about the place makes this a personal, impactful loss.

I can see where you're coming from about Thessia, but I didn't necessarily mean the fall of the entire planet and aftermath, I meant more "in the moment" when you hear Shepard trying to contact one of the Asari commandos while the Reapers start landing. Even though I had no previous connection to the planet, I still felt for the people.

And the same goes for Earth...

Basically what I meant is that those moments are appropriate for the story. Whether or not they executed it is entirely up to the individual.

[Kataphrut94]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I wanted the option to chew out Tevos; I'm instead forced to apologize to her. The battle for Earth, and all casualties incurred therein, would never have happened if the Asari hadn't sat on that beacon for so long.

As did I my friend, as did I. But no, apparently Thessia is the most important planet in the Galaxy and the Asari are the greatest species ever...or somthing. They can do no wrong it seems.

Ummm...it kind of is. But that's not really the point. The point is that you had found what you needed to win and had it taken away from you. That's where the failure comes from.

I said in my last post that I do not believe the game is 100% sadness and misery. There are certainly dramatic moments and many of it is pulled off quite well, dream sequences excepted. Seriously, those bits can go **** themselves with a giant stick.

But, there is also plenty of light relief to balance that out. There's comic relief, some well-written and believable banter on the Normandy and Citadel, catching up with old friends, silly romance arcs. Not every mission ends with heartache. There's still enough kicking ass and taking names to balance out the serious moments.

[EnvyTB075]

dreman9999 wrote...

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

Stop imposing your character upon others.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

Kai Leng beating most certainly does come out of the blue. It's a 3v1 battle. My own Shepard is a Sentinel. Overload Kai Leng's shields, proceed to shoot repeatedly in the head. I also have Javik and James with me. Javik could Slam Leng into the ground with over 2000 Newtons of force. Failing that somehow doesn't kill him, James has Carnage, which is an incendiary burst of particles. Shepard also has Warp and Cry Blast. Realistically speaking, Leng would be the deadest person in the galaxy.

Also, counter Shepard's abilities? What abilities does Shepard have that are unique to him or her? Even if Leg somehow managed to counter Shepard, there's still his 2 squadmates. He's outnumbered and outgunned.

In general, Legion is a living contradiction in ME3. The fact that his writer is different in ME3 is a testament to this. He geth are software, not hardware. There was no reason for Legion to die permanently, he could have just copied himself and uploaded himself into another body, or back into the larger consensus. Also, as a gestalt intelligence, the idea that Legion has any individuality immediately before dying is absolutely retarded, unless 1183 unique people all inhabit his body at the same time, speaking in singular first person pronouns. That any geth at all behave this way is simply wrong.

He has a gun ship covering his back. Added, we have cerberus who learnt everything not to do with guns ship fights ageints Shepard becauseof Shepard reports to the illusive man about his/her fights with them.
And some how you say cerberus, who has been watching and getting report about how Shepard fights for all of ME2, should not know a way to hold him/her back?

[dreman9999]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

Stop imposing your character upon others.

Who said I was? I'm just saying that the feeling sad about thessia wasnotthe only thing to feel upset about nor did thegame force you character to feel sad spacifily about the fall of thessia.

[dreman9999]

4stringwizard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

So why was Shepard forced to apologize?  Why was he forced to be a d1ck to Joker for making a joke about the Asari?  These sorces of scenes shouldn't be forced on the player.  Balance it out; at least give us some control.  That was one of ME3's flaws - taking Shepard out of your hands. 

The apology can mean anything and the Joker "Joke" moment has levels of reposiesto it. None of it means you were force to feel sad about the fall of thessia.

[Indy_S]

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

As I recall, the locker scene didn't put words in Shepard's mouth. We were still pretty much free to feel however we wanted at that scene.

I think my Shepard was contemplating how he'd go about introducing Udina to his combat knife right about then...

But it did directly difine an emotion for the player. It matter not that it did not put word in his mouth, it still illustraded an emotion with out player input. Shepard seen angrully slamming his/her locker does not open up to other emotions.

So we should discuss why the locker scene is seen positively and the post-Thessia scene is seen negatively.

I cared about stopping Saren. I had just learnt the crux of his plan and I was ready to stop him when I got pulled up. I, as the player, felt frustration alongside my character.

I didn't care about Thessia. The world's sum meaning to me is 'Asari homeworld' and even then, it's not a sentimental attachment. I didn't care about the Crucible. I knew it was what was winning the war for us but my suspension of disbelief was shattered in this regard. Getting pulled up from figuring out the macguffin didn't have the same effect as getting pulled out of the Saren plot. Losing Thessia didn't feel like it was my fault. I can understand the character behaving like they do but I can't relate to it.