313 réponses à ce sujet

[EnvyTB075]

dreman9999 wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

Stop imposing your character upon others.

Who said I was? I'm just saying that the feeling sad about thessia wasnotthe only thing to feel upset about nor did thegame force you character to feel sad spacifily about the fall of thessia.

You did. First off you define by your own standards what emotions Shepard is "allowed" to feel, and then use your Shepard as an example.

Stop.

[DeinonSlayer]

4stringwizard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

So why was Shepard forced to apologize?  Why was he forced to be a d1ck to Joker for making a joke about the Asari?  These sorces of scenes shouldn't be forced on the player.  Balance it out; at least give us some control.  That was one of ME3's flaws - taking Shepard out of your hands. 

I've learned to avoid speaking to Anderson, James, EDI, and Joker after Thessia if I want to stay in-character. Avoiding the first in that list means I have to hear Traynor remind me of it until the end of the game, but I get to sidestep the "choose your flavor of butthurt" conversation it calls up, so I call it a fair trade.

Shepard is not a whiney douche.

[dreman9999]

KBomb wrote...

The only thing that felt sad to me was Mordin and Legion's death. The rest of it didn't feel "real" to me. I felt that I couldn't attach myself to the "sadness" that I was suppose to be feeling. The child and the whole symbolism of his presence felt like it was being pushed on me. I think the impact of the dreams and seeing the Catalyst at the end would have packed a bigger punch had the child been replaced with the VS. That would have felt natural. They would have represented Shepard's loss and guilt so much more than a child we had no prior connection with.

Thessia was suppose to represent Shepard's defeat, but instead of letting us feel that sense of being beaten and lost, it seemed as if it became about Liara and the loss of her planet. After seeing Palaven and Earth devastated, why would Thessia be any more important? It was important because it was Shepard's failure--but it didn't come off that way. I have to agree with the poster who said he felt no sympathy for Thessia. I felt nothing.

The only real sadness I felt was at the list of missed opportunities that could have been something real, ala The Walking Dead, but instead seemed a bit forced and plastic.

Thessia is more of a case that you had the way to end the war in you hand and it slipped through your hands.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I've learned to avoid speaking to Anderson, James, EDI, and Joker after Thessia if I want to stay in-character. Avoiding the first in that list means I have to hear Traynor remind me of it until the end of the game, but I get to sidestep the "choose your flavor of butthurt" conversation it calls up, so I call it a fair trade.

Shepard is not a whiney douche.

. He's not Kai Leng

[dreman9999]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

So why was Shepard forced to apologize?  Why was he forced to be a d1ck to Joker for making a joke about the Asari?  These sorces of scenes shouldn't be forced on the player.  Balance it out; at least give us some control.  That was one of ME3's flaws - taking Shepard out of your hands. 

I've learned to avoid speaking to Anderson, James, EDI, and Joker after Thessia if I want to stay in-character. Avoiding the first in that list means I have to hear Traynor remind me of it until the end of the game, but I get to sidestep the "choose your flavor of butthurt" conversation it calls up, so I call it a fair trade.

Shepard is not a whiney douche.

How was Shepard being whiny? Added, wasn'tShepard being Whiney during the locker scene in ME1?

[CynicalShep]

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
I think the post-Thessia scene wouldn't have been so bad if not for the fact that other terrilbe things can happen - wiping out a whole Batarian colony, wiping out literally the entire Geth/Quarian race, etc - and Shepard literally doesn't bat an eyelash. 

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

So why was Shepard forced to apologize?  Why was he forced to be a d1ck to Joker for making a joke about the Asari?  These sorces of scenes shouldn't be forced on the player.  Balance it out; at least give us some control.  That was one of ME3's flaws - taking Shepard out of your hands. 

I've learned to avoid speaking to Anderson, James, EDI, and Joker after Thessia if I want to stay in-character. Avoiding the first in that list means I have to hear Traynor remind me of it until the end of the game, but I get to sidestep the "choose your flavor of butthurt" conversation it calls up, so I call it a fair trade.

Shepard is not a whiney douche.

How was Shepard being whiny? Added, wasn'tShepard being Whiney during the locker scene in ME1?

angry and/or frustrated =/= whiny

[KBomb]

dreman9999 wrote...

Who said I was? I'm just saying that the feeling sad about thessia wasnotthe only thing to feel upset about nor did thegame force you character to feel sad spacifily about the fall of thessia.

I have to disagree with this. The whole blow up at Joker refutes that. Mordin died and Joker made a crack--nothing said. Joker cracks about Thessia--not Shepard's failure, but Thessia--and Shep loses his ****. The whole touching (and I use that word loosely) with Liara refutes that. The whole apology thing. All of it seemed to overshadow what the purpose of Shepard's feelings were, which was failure, and pushed it into the feeling of the loss of Thessia itself.

[dreman9999]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

You assume that theonly thing Shepard can upset about is the fall of thessia at that moment. My Renagade Shepard was only upset that the last peice need to end the war was stole under him.

Stop imposing your character upon others.

Who said I was? I'm just saying that the feeling sad about thessia wasnotthe only thing to feel upset about nor did thegame force you character to feel sad spacifily about the fall of thessia.

You did. First off you define by your own standards what emotions Shepard is "allowed" to feel, and then use your Shepard as an example.

Stop.

No I did not. All I said is that there is more then one emotion you can feel in the scene. I never said you had to feel that same emotion orthe same emotion I did. You are the one warping my comments to be define that way.
If you thing I am, reread everything Ipost a nd quote when  I "bluntly " did.

[Jadebaby]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I like sad things.

Obviously, you're a Diana Allers fan.

[o Ventus]

dreman9999 wrote...

He has a gun ship covering his back. Added, we have cerberus who learnt everything not to do with guns ship fights ageints Shepard becauseof Shepard reports to the illusive man about his/her fights with them.
And some how you say cerberus, who has been watching and getting report about how Shepard fights for all of ME2, should not know a way to hold him/her back?

A gunship that only sporadically involves itself in the fight. Your second sentence isn't coherent English. 

There is nothing special about how Shepard fights. Shepard is a soldier, thus Shepard fights like a soldier. Everything Shepard does can be replicated by literally anybody else. There's nothing Cerberus can do to specifically counter Shepard his or herself. Even if they did, again, Shepard still has 2 squadmates (considering how no ME2 characters are on the team in ME3, Cerberus most certainly doesn't have any magical defenses against the new squad).

Also, nice job not even acknowledging my post. Then again, I just remembered who I'm replying to.

Modifié par o Ventus, 14 février 2013 - 03:19 .

[dreman9999]

KBomb wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Who said I was? I'm just saying that the feeling sad about thessia wasnotthe only thing to feel upset about nor did thegame force you character to feel sad spacifily about the fall of thessia.

I have to disagree with this. The whole blow up at Joker refutes that. Mordin died and Joker made a crack--nothing said. Joker cracks about Thessia--not Shepard's failure, but Thessia--and Shep loses his ****. The whole touching (and I use that word loosely) with Liara refutes that. The whole apology thing. All of it seemed to overshadow what the purpose of Shepard's feelings were, which was failure, and pushed it into the feeling of the loss of Thessia itself.

Only the paragon dialogue choice illustrates Shepard being upset over peopel dieing in the Joker's bad joke Scene. The renagade choice just has Shepard shown to have no will to be humoured at a time Shepard is feeling his/her worst.

[Kulbelbolka]

Just think about game's meta-message and it all will be clear.
It actually says that no matter what you did, no matter how good you were and what did you make for the sake of everyone, at the end you will die alone, nothing can save you.

You were preparing for this battle for years and there is no battle. There was just an act of capitulation to the Reapers. This hurts me.

[Indy_S]

My comment seems to have been forgotten at the end of the last page so I'll paste it here.

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

As I recall, the locker scene didn't put words in Shepard's mouth. We were still pretty much free to feel however we wanted at that scene.

I think my Shepard was contemplating how he'd go about introducing Udina to his combat knife right about then...

But it did directly define an emotion for the player. It matter not that it did not put word in his mouth, it still illustrated an emotion with out player input. Shepard seen angrily slamming his/her locker does not open up to other emotions.

So we should discuss why the locker scene is seen positively and the post-Thessia scene is seen negatively.

I cared about stopping Saren. I had just learnt the crux of his plan and I was ready to stop him when I got pulled up. I, as the player, felt frustration alongside my character.

I didn't care about Thessia. The world's sum meaning to me is 'Asari homeworld' and even then, it's not a sentimental attachment. I didn't care about the Crucible. I knew it was what was winning the war for us but my suspension of disbelief was shattered in this regard. Getting pulled up from figuring out the macguffin didn't have the same effect as getting pulled out of the Saren plot. Losing Thessia didn't feel like it was my fault. I can understand the character behaving like they do but I can't relate to it.

[MageTarot]

Fawx9 wrote...

I always thought they were going for darkest before the dawn type thing

Then there was the ending and it had no dawn.

So ya.

[dreman9999]

o Ventus wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

He has a gun ship covering his back. Added, we have cerberus who learnt everything not to do with guns ship fights ageints Shepard becauseof Shepard reports to the illusive man about his/her fights with them.
And some how you say cerberus, who has been watching and getting report about how Shepard fights for all of ME2, should not know a way to hold him/her back?

A gunship that only sporadically involves itself in the fight. Your second sentence isn't coherent English. 

There is nothing special about how Shepard fights. Shepard is a soldier, thus Shepard fights like a soldier. Everything Shepard does can be replicated by literally anybody else. There's nothing Cerberus can do to specifically counter Shepard his or herself. Even if they did, again, Shepard still has 2 squadmates (considering how no ME2 characters are on the team in ME3, Cerberus most certainly doesn't have any magical defenses against the new squad).

Also, nice job not even acknowledging my post. Then again, I just remembered who I'm replying to.

Sporadically involves, it fire on you duringthe fight with Shepard and is the only reason why Shepard lost that battle.

And Shepard does not fight like everother soldier. You seen it yourself. ME1 he/she whne through betalions of geth, crushed mountions of mercs(including krogan), and faced down the collectors. I don't see an averge solder doing that. From ME1, Shepard is shown tobethe best ofthe best of the soldiers humanity has.

And the issues of the fight has nothing to do with what squad Shep has. In ME2 with the gun ship is shepard who carries the fight.
Tell me, why would cerberus not develop ways to hold Shepard back in a fight?

[KBomb]

dreman9999 wrote...

Only the paragon dialogue choice illustrates Shepard being upset over peopel dieing in the Joker's bad joke Scene. The renagade choice just has Shepard shown to have no will to be humoured at a time Shepard is feeling his/her worst.

You mean like when Mordin died? Or the plethora of other times throughout the trilogy where Shepard was feeling out of sorts and at his worse and Joker was jocular? There were a lot of devastating moments, but only until Thessia did we see Shepard lose it. It could have been set up in a way that conveyed his failure and defeat, but instead it gave the impression that Shepard was distraught over the loss of Thessia and it became about the asari and Liara. That may be fine for some Shepard's, but for some, like mine-- couldn't care any less about the loss of Thessia in the scheme of things. That option wasn't present though, was it? I think that is the point some are trying to make.

[dreman9999]

Indy_S wrote...

My comment seems to have been forgotten at the end of the last page so I'll paste it here.

dreman9999 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

As I recall, the locker scene didn't put words in Shepard's mouth. We were still pretty much free to feel however we wanted at that scene.

I think my Shepard was contemplating how he'd go about introducing Udina to his combat knife right about then...

But it did directly define an emotion for the player. It matter not that it did not put word in his mouth, it still illustrated an emotion with out player input. Shepard seen angrily slamming his/her locker does not open up to other emotions.

So we should discuss why the locker scene is seen positively and the post-Thessia scene is seen negatively.

I cared about stopping Saren. I had just learnt the crux of his plan and I was ready to stop him when I got pulled up. I, as the player, felt frustration alongside my character.

I didn't care about Thessia. The world's sum meaning to me is 'Asari homeworld' and even then, it's not a sentimental attachment. I didn't care about the Crucible. I knew it was what was winning the war for us but my suspension of disbelief was shattered in this regard. Getting pulled up from figuring out the macguffin didn't have the same effect as getting pulled out of the Saren plot. Losing Thessia didn't feel like it was my fault. I can understand the character behaving like they do but I can't relate to it.

But your missing that fact here that Thessia falling is not the only thing to be upset about.  The main thing that Shepardis upset about is not getting the final peice for the crusible to end the war.
As I said many times,if you were out to save the galexy and the one peice need to do so slips out of you hands....You would not feel upset?

[spirosz]

Dreman, you're missing the point that not every Shepard would flip their upset switch just because of Thessia.

[Indy_S]

Can I just say I'm a huge fan of the first ten seconds after the fight with Kai Leng.

"There's only one way this ends" indeed.

[Indy_S]

dreman9999 wrote...

But your missing that fact here that Thessia falling is not the only thing to be upset about.  The main thing that Shepardis upset about is not getting the final peice for the crusible to end the war.
As I said many times,if you were out to save the galexy and the one peice need to do so slips out of you hands....You would not feel upset?

I addressed the Crucible specifically. Between it and Thessia, I still wasn't attached to the scene.

[dreman9999]

KBomb wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Only the paragon dialogue choice illustrates Shepard being upset over peopel dieing in the Joker's bad joke Scene. The renagade choice just has Shepard shown to have no will to be humoured at a time Shepard is feeling his/her worst.

You mean like when Mordin died? Or the plethora of other times throughout the trilogy where Shepard was feeling out of sorts and at his worse and Joker was jocular? There were a lot of devastating moments, but only until Thessia did we see Shepard lose it. It could have been set up in a way that conveyed his failure and defeat, but instead it gave the impression that Shepard was distraught over the loss of Thessia and it became about the asari and Liara. That may be fine for some Shepard's, but for some, like mine-- couldn't care any less about the loss of Thessia in the scheme of things. That option wasn't present though, was it? I think that is the point some are trying to make.

Right because when Mordin died the last peice need to end the war slipped throught Shepard hands?

Right, that did not happen. You missing the fact here that the case with the after math with Mordins Death or when Shepard was feeling upset there was not an impending knowing of doom hanging over Shepard head.

Shepard at a moment having a way to fight back ageint the reapers. Why would he/she not feel upset?

[dreman9999]

Indy_S wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But your missing that fact here that Thessia falling is not the only thing to be upset about.  The main thing that Shepardis upset about is not getting the final peice for the crusible to end the war.
As I said many times,if you were out to save the galexy and the one peice need to do so slips out of you hands....You would not feel upset?

I addressed the Crucible specifically. Between it and Thessia, I still wasn't attached to the scene.

It has nothing to do with you being attached. It's about a way to fight ageinstthe reapers. With out it, how would you take down the reapers?

[o Ventus]

Dreman, tell me, where did you learn to hold actual, legitimate discussions wih people? Because I recommend you get a refund.

The gunship appears 3 times in the entire fight. That is, by definition, sporadic involvement.

Shepard FIGHTS like any other soldier. FIGHTS. Reading before replying usually helps. You'll also notice that literally every single time Shepard RTS into a crazy fight, he or she is backed by 2 squadmates, comprised of some of the deadliest people in the galaxy. It isn't like Shepard is some magical end-all button.

Tell me,in what ways could Cerberus possibly "hold Shepard back"?

[dreman9999]

spirosz wrote...

Dreman, you're missing the point that not every Shepard would flip their upset switch just because of Thessia.

I never said that every Shepard needs to be upset about thef all of Thessia. I said at the very least they would be upset over loosing the one final peice need to defeat the reapers, which slip through Shepards hands in that mission.

[goose2989]

Greylycantrope wrote...

More like the "tried very hard to be sad hammer" we keep getting told how sad and depressing the setting is but it only felt that way on occasion, to me anyways.

Case and point Thessia.

I feel this is a mostly accurate summarization, but not quite how I'd put it. I thought the game had a lot of genuinely emotional and sad scenes; Rannoch, Tuchanka, Earth, and so many others were great. Moments like this arose in the story naturally, because they involved characters we came to know and love. Most of these scenes involved characters that were also universally loved, rather than ones that leave fans divided. 

But so much of it was also ham-fisted and brought into the story artificially. Like many others, I feel like Thessia was a blatant attempt to elicit sad emotions, when it didn't bring them into the story naturally. The lines I keep seeing like "This is Thessia... this is Thessia burning... now be sad!" sum it up well. 

Despite this, I think the game did a good job of bringing out the player's emotions; it just wasn't great.