88 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadooow]

Master Jax wrote...

This insults thing baffles me... 0__0
I would like to think I check in often, and I don't remember ever
reading insults or unfounded criticism in the forums... Maybe this was
long before my time, or I check the "right" posts... In any case, if
anyone is giving you a hard time, isn't it easier to ignore the
comments? I would think supportive community members are a lot more than
insulting ones...

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

In the end, I just don't see
the point of forum hostility.  Barry_1066 has told me (when I set up the
new CEP forum for them when their previous one was shut down), that he
doesn't bother visiting these forums, since these days any post he would
make seems like it has a 99% chance to end up pretty much like this one
has....a "simple question about CEP" thread turned "rant against CEP"
thread.

Ok. Sorry I used the word "robbed", if the CCP gave permission to the CEP, its alright. I apologize.

But it wasnt meant as a insult. Yes its a critique. But its the ignoring this critique what turned CEP into what it is now. Of course that it is not possible to make a truly community project. The community is too divided and there is too much builders playing on their own ground, rather reinventing whats already created than rely on it. But, ignoring the negative comments only further pushes CEP away from the community.

Criticism is also form of the suggestion and if there is more than ten peoples with objections against current CEP direction, it means something and CEP team should not ignore this.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 15 février 2013 - 10:23 .

[Urk]

I like the CEP and intend to continue using it. Every time you ask your players to download a hak for a specific session you have one or two players arrive late or not at all. DMing a month to month campaign requires flexibility, and that's exactly what the huge amount of content in the CEP allows for without (often) having to create module specific haks or ask players to download "spoiler" haks.

I have no problem with the people doing the work making the decisions about what get's included and what doesn't, and I can more than understand them being shy about bringing new people into the fold. After all, not many new project members stay very long on any mod project. Fly by night recruits rarely contribute enough to make up for the time lost to reorganizing again after they leave. 

In the event we need content that's not included, we always have the option of creating a top hak. And as for unused content, well, it's not like the large files pose any real challenge to modern computers.

AFAIC so far they have done a fine job, and I for one appreciate their hard work without reservation.

Just my 2 cents.

Modifié par Urk, 15 février 2013 - 10:39 .

[henesua]

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...
In the end, I just don't see the point of forum hostility.  Barry_1066 has told me (when I set up the new CEP forum for them when their previous one was shut down), that he doesn't bother visiting these forums, since these days any post he would make seems like it has a 99% chance to end up pretty much like this one has....a "simple question about CEP" thread turned "rant against CEP" thread.

While I get your drift, The Amethyst Dragon, I think you've overstated the case. In my view criticism comes with the territory. If a leader can't handle that, they should not be in charge of a community project.

And to be frank, its time I spoke my mind about this.

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...
Sure, CEP isn't being run how some would like, but that doesn't mean you can't make a new project that does much the same task but with different structure and non-CEP-exclusive content.

This statement exposes one of the ugliest problems with CEP. There never should have been CEP exclusive content. I think it is quite telling how this "exclusive content" is used by the CEP team to defend their possessiveness of all of the work that is not theirs, and then use that argument to stifle other initiatives.

In my view, much more good can come out of criticism of CEP at this point than bad. People should keep their heads on straight during such discussions, but likewise people also should have the freedom to speak their mind and be heard. If the CEP team is unwilling to participate in these discussions, then they do not deserve to call their project the Community Expansion Pack.

My opinion is that the NWN community over the past 2-3 years has been stifled rather than expanded by the CEP project and team, and something needs to be done about it. Thankfully the matter is not dire as there are technical solutions in the works that will make a massive compilation like CEP unnecessary. And I eagerly await more progress on that front.

[edit]
And I want to add that none of this is personal. I don't see any real villains in this case. If anything is to be called out as the "enemy" it is inertia. And I see a great deal of inertia in CEP. Inertia is great when you have forward velocity, but that ain't the case anymore.

Modifié par henesua, 15 février 2013 - 05:56 .

[KlatchainCoffee]

Well, I use CEP, and having poked about in it a good deal as a builder I can certainly appreciate the sheer amount of work that went into it.

Unfortunately the point about inertia is also true. Amazing content is being produced all the time and that process seems to be largely disconnected from CEP, and has been for some time.


I know I may come across as a bit of a dreamer in the light of various sentiments expressed here and elsewhere and that this may not be as easy as it sounds, but I really wish certain people would bury the hatchet and work together to put all the amazing stuff out there under one roof.

It pains me to think that this may not happen, as I have found the spirit of creativity, openness and sharing often expressed on these forums truly inspiring.

[henesua]

KlatchainCoffee wrote...

I know I may come across as a bit of a dreamer in the light of various sentiments expressed here and elsewhere and that this may not be as easy as it sounds, but I really wish certain people would bury the hatchet and work together to put all the amazing stuff out there under one roof.

That may not be necessary forever. An autodownloader as Rolo often describes could solve this problem.

That said, if the autodownloader is not released, the Foundation project will work on themed compilations of content. The first package would be a race/pheno compilation as that is usually the most work and relates to Foundation's mission of enabling characters to hop from world to world.

Anyway... its all just vaporware at the moment, but I really don't think there is any reason to despair. We can develop a better, mor emodular structure to organize CC for multiplayer play, and we may have a technical solution on the horizon.

[Tarot Redhand]

@KlatchainCoffee I personally do not want any of my content bundled up (and very soon buried under a mound of other stuff) in any compilations with one major exception. If any pw wishes to wrap my stuff up in their own custom hak that is fine by me as long as I get credit. However, if the right project came along (i.e. one targeting single player mods as opposed to multiplayer) I might be persuaded otherwise.

@henesua why is it always about multiplayer? A compilation that didn't have the multiplayer baggage could be very useful for single player modules as long as there was decent documentation.

TR

Modifié par Tarot Redhand, 15 février 2013 - 08:27 .

[henesua]

Tarot Redhand wrote...

@henesua why is it always about multiplayer? A compilation that didn't have the multiplayer baggage could be very useful for single player modules as long as there was decent documentation.

TR

Its always about multiplayer for me personally because I can make single player games in another engine without much trouble. Its the multiplayer stuff, and the community of content creators that drew me to build in NWN for the time being - which seems to be stretching on a long time now.

Anyway, if a CC package is designed to work with multiplayer, it can certainly work with single player.

[Rolo Kipp]

<dipping a burning toe...>

I'd just like to recommend a thoughtful perusal of this NwN2 thread, starting with Dunnitowl's post...

That's all ;-) I'm a little rusty with rocket surgery and all that jazz, so I rely others to do my thinking ;-)

<...in the spreading pool of gasoline>

Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 15 février 2013 - 08:33 .

[NWN_baba yaga]

We all work together here somehow and if it´s just a little bit of help. The atmosphere here is always very good and the problem about restricting content of whatever crap someone can come up with that late of the nwn timeline is no secret where to look at. I really wonder what else we can do when people come here for threads about cep as to either help them or bash it because of the dying breed of a mess it is

IS the cep thing really something you can be neutral about it?

Didnt we gave the cep a rest of nearly a year and what happened? News must have gone by like a flash i wasnt ablee to catch them so many stuff happened....

And what if barry and that stranger female have married and now life over the rainbow and only take notice of cep when someone wants to improve it so they can treat him a little bit;) Necromants surely love their zombies too but i never imagined it would remind me of 2 real life persons and my beloved game! Yes precious... tasty rotten project... tasty special suing soup of rotten project:P

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 15 février 2013 - 10:16 .

[Squatting Monk]

Tarot Redhand wrote...

As a solo player mod creator I was so disappointed with both the humungous size of the later CEPs and their focus on multi-player that I refuse to allow them to use any of my stuff if they were crazy enough to think it any good.

Tarot Redhand wrote...

@henesua why is it always about multiplayer? A compilation that didn't have the multiplayer baggage could be very useful for single player modules as long as there was decent documentation.

Forgive me if I'm just being dense, but what is the multiplayer focus that makes the CEP unsuitable for single player modules? I thought the custom content works the same regardless of environment.

[Tarot Redhand]

It's the "I can't find anything because there's no blueprints because of name space issues for servers", it's the extra overhead of stuff I will never use because it's designed for multiplayer, it's the total lack of any meaningful documentation - I was taught that if you make something, you document it at least well enough for your users to actually be able to use it to it's full potential. Why do you think I include a catalogue of the things I make and release myself, as part of the overall package? If I don't know it's there how am I supposed to be able to use it?

It's the structuring of the haks so as to more accommodate pw's (at least that is how I understood one of the reasons given for their not keeping to what they had done for CEP v1).

 And as far as the CEP goes, it's the we won't tell the community via these boards what we have been up to, unlike the majority of people on here who are more than willing to do so.

Sorry, I apologise, rant mode kicked in again.

TR

Modifié par Tarot Redhand, 16 février 2013 - 12:14 .

[Squatting Monk]

Tarot Redhand wrote...

It's the "I can't find anything because there's no blueprints because of name space issues for servers"

There are blueprints. They're just in a separate file (so you can use tem or not, as you wish) and haven't been regularly updated as content was added.

The 16k bug is with the DM client, which is usable in both MP and SP modules. Also, not having useful blueprints is just as much a problem for folks building MP modules as it is for SP.

Solution: make your own blueprints or compile useful, up-to-date blueprints in a pack to distribute to others.

it's the extra overhead of stuff I will never use because it's designed for multiplayer

Such as?

it's the total lack of any meaningful documentation - I was taught that if you make something, you document it at least well enough for your users to actually be able to use it to it's full potential. Why do you think I include a catalogue of the things I make and release myself, as part of the overall package? If I don't know it's there how am I supposed to be able to use it?

This is a big problem with the CEP, granted. But it's got nothing to do with suitability for a single-player versus multiplayer module.

It's the structuring of the haks so as to more accommodate pw's (at least that is how I understood one of the reasons given for their not keeping to what they had done for CEP v1).

So they split the CEP into more haks to make updating easier. How does this make it any less usable for single-player modules?

And as far as the CEP goes, it's the we won't tell the community via these boards what we have been up to, unlike the majority of people on here who are more than willing to do so.

Again, this is totally irrelevant to the question of SP versus MP content.

Modifié par Squatting Monk, 16 février 2013 - 12:44 .

[Pstemarie]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Of course that it is not possible to make a truly community project. The community is too divided and there is too much builders playing on their own ground, rather reinventing whats already created than rely on it. 

Not relying on what already exists - I think I know what you mean here, but I'm not positive. If you're referring to the Community Patch you made, I'm not 100% certain its reliable as you claim. NO project - neither CEP, Project Q, or Community Patch, etc., etc. could be considered reliable in the sense I think you mean. In the end they are nothing more than an interpretation. 

You made choices, the Q Team made choices, as did the CEP Team. Sometimes these choices do not fit the mold of what a Builder is trying to create. Thus, Builders inevitably adapt what they find to merge with whatever systems they pull into - or create for - their creations. Its not a slight on the CC creator, just the natural progression of things.

Furthermore, no one is the alpha and omega of CC making. I'd think you of all people would understand this. Your Community Patch is the ultimate expression of the diversity found within this Community, but - like CEP and Project Q - it is NOT the capstone project you think it is. It is a compilation of your improvements and interpretations of groundwork laid by others; and like every other piece of CC out there it can be improved upon.

To dismiss the Community as incapable of coming to a consensus and condemning the diversity within it is short-sighted. It is exactly this diversity and the ongoing desire to improve what others have done that is this Community's greatest strength. 

[Shadooow]

Pstemarie wrote...

To dismiss the Community as incapable of coming to a consensus and condemning the diversity within it is short-sighted. It is exactly this diversity and the ongoing desire to improve what others have done that is this Community's greatest strength. 

Yes its about "my" (I started to using this word because someone was insulted by pretending its something more than my house rules hak) unofficial patch. Sorry if I expected that the NWN community take this project as a standard and join to make it better. None of this happened. While nobody can point what the exact problem with this, from the comments of The Krit and some other peoples who has personall issues with me (will not name them - but I wonder why you put me into ignore list? I dont remember I insulted you or project Q in any way) it seems to me that the main objections is that, I even tried to make something like this, and that I made the choices - no matter if these choices are good or wrong, just that I did them and tell peoples this is how it should be. So those who cannot identify problem are silent but do not support this project and do not use this project. They are rather fixing all the issues themselves from scratch rather than use this, with apologies like "but I don't know whats in there".

Sorry if I expected that the NWN community go in together to make it something more than one man show with no support.


Back to CEP: Yes TAD, I could easily make my own modified CEP I would like, but it wouldnt be fair do the CEP team and the work they made and it would only divided the community. I dont want to do that, what I want is to CEP suited more peoples including me (and I wouldnt like it if someone tried to do the same with my project). This would be possible if they would for example: sorted haks by models as it was in CEP1, currently model and texture for one creature is in two different core haks. Move the theme-specific placeables in palette into own category so I dont have to browse 50 tables that do not suit default NWN in any way. Divide the very specific themes into own haks maybe so if Im building the classical PnP module I dont need the ancient-civilization content in module. etc.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 février 2013 - 07:55 .

[Lazarus Magni]

Wow.. apparently we have struck a nerve here. I have altered the name of the topic once again to reflect the current state of the topic.

It's not supprising people have strong views regarding this, considering it's something that is supposedly part of the community (not to mention has a place holder for one of the few discussion boards here [e.g. NwN 1 Custom Content and Community Expansion Pack ])

It's great to see so many folks are passionate about this, perhaps something good can come out of this discussion?

To me what I take away from this is:

a) Lots of people use CEP, and appreciate the work put into it (myself included.)

Lots of people (myself included) wish there was more community involvement in it's current state.

c) It might become irrelevant if the auto hak downloader (hello worldgate) comes to fruition.

d) For me personally, even if c does come to be, I would still love to see an compliation of community work that multiple worlds (SP and multi) can use.

Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 16 février 2013 - 07:34 .

[KlatchainCoffee]

It's sad when people rub each other the wrong way and then can't find the 'undo' button, even years down the line. What can I say - I am equally awed by anyone who did a ton of stuff that I would never be able to to improve NWN for people like me, so I won't be taking any 'sides' here.

Lazarus Magni wrote...
...
To me what I take away from this is;
....

Yes.

[NWN_baba yaga]

From the day that barry took over he should have been honest about his intentions. He changed the once real CEP into his "own" PW rolemodel compilation behind our backs and more or less forced in and out what he only needs for his world. So either you had to accept it or not it! I will not put that to rest until i leave nwn. Thats why my oppinion was we should have just throw them out and replace them by motivated people with more social skills and a sense for the whole community...

And that suing munbo jumbo or we cant take away CEP was, is and will be nonsense. The cep belongs only to the community and no dude has any right to claim ownership of it. That this joke is so serious to these people is only a sign of their own unsecurity!

ANd how could malishara the stranger become a cep member? what has she ever done? I never came across anything that person did for us. So my take is she is just a player from his own pw or a pw owner who stucks kneedepp in his pockets and etc.

If you read that barry see ya next year with awesome CEP news...

Why dont we just change the name CEP into CED = community expansion dictate

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 16 février 2013 - 02:30 .

[KlatchainCoffee]

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

From the day that barry took over he should have been honest about his intentions. He changed the once real CEP into his "own" PW rolemodel compilation behind our backs and more or less forced in and out what he only needs for his world. So either you had to accept it or not it! I will not put that to rest until i leave nwn. Thats why my oppinion was we should have just throw them out and replace them by motivated people with more social skills and a sense for the whole community...

If you read that barry see ya next year with awesome CEP news...

There might be truth in what you say, but I doubt current CEP people see it that way. From their perspective they may see it that they stepped in and rescued it from total collapse because  _no-one else was there to do anything other than them_ (again, arguably) and because it was them that stepped up to the task they had the right to do as they liked and take it in the the direction which they saw fit, whether or not it in effect tarnished or invalidated the 'Community' part of the project title.

However, whether you see CEP as having been 'rescued' or 'highjacked' after much of the old team left, it does appear to be currently in limbo. There seems to be far more activity and mutual help on these boards than amoung people calling themselves 'Community Expansion Project'. Maybe they don't come here because they dont want their heads bitten off or maybe it has to do with thin egos, who knows? I could try to go over to their forums and convince them that in the name of world peace and perpetuation of NWN creative coolness ties should be re-established, but unfortunately I have my own share of experience of various online projects to extrapolate what kind of reception a total stranger who apparently likes typing would get.

NWN_baba yaga wrote...


And that suing munbo jumbo...

Baba, I know you feel strongly about this, but basically going 'You bastards!' at people is not likely to make them more helpful or cooperative. Positive change rarely comes from negative vibes. :happy:

Modifié par KlatchainCoffee, 16 février 2013 - 02:41 .

[NWN_baba yaga]

I know that my on the edge talking will change nothing and just adds to the negativity about it. I´m totally aware of that. But when you know that even the nicest, honest and constructive ways are already been dismissed or just not gone trough their heads there is nothing left to try as to set my frustration and anger free! You see you cant even nukebomb them apart they are so skyhigh it´s fascinating to me.That bubble you need in reallife when times are really tough

and now i´m done for another year of cep madness and appologize for my brutal rally ...precious is tired of that-_-

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 16 février 2013 - 05:55 .

[Malagant]

While Baba's... interpretation... amuses me to no end, I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who sees things in the manner he expresses: that CEP2 honestly started as a natural progression of the Community Expansion Project but at some point it morphed into the Annakolia Expansion Project. In that sense it seemed like "this is what we want to do for our PW, and if you all want to use it then you are welcomed to". It seemed the project was less about expanding anything in the community than expanding their own PW, and the handling of the project could be interpreted as mirroring this same idealism.

What reinforced this to me was it being stated at one point that any search for CEP "news" should be directed to the forums of that particular PW who's owners/admins just so happen to be comprised of certain individuals.

Anyway, I've seen people offer help and suggestions to them and seen those individuals flat out ignored or blown off. That, and the aforementioned AEP approach, doesn't speak community to me at all. They just don't seem at all interested in it. I realize they are volunteers but, at this point, they shouldn't be pretending to be anything other than a PW project disguised as a community one.

Modifié par Malagant, 17 février 2013 - 02:38 .

[Sadira of Tyr]

3RavensMore wrote...

Fact is, nothing drives people away from a community faster than to start hurling insults and bickering. Can we please let it go before even more people leave? Please? Seriously guys.

I agree completely.

And the comments about females. We are part of the community too. Could we have a little more respect please.

I for one, appreciate all the hard work the cep team has done, and I look forward to seeing version 2.5. I could not imagine building without cep. I get a lot of compliments from players, because of the nice things I have used from cep. Even their scripts have made things much easier for me.

What's not to like about having more clothes. A lot of players like to dress up their characters.

[Sir Adril]

Sadira of Tyr wrote...

3RavensMore wrote...

Fact is, nothing drives people away from a community faster than to start hurling insults and bickering. Can we please let it go before even more people leave? Please? Seriously guys.

I agree completely.

And the comments about females. We are part of the community too. Could we have a little more respect please.

I for one, appreciate all the hard work the cep team has done, and I look forward to seeing version 2.5. I could not imagine building without cep. I get a lot of compliments from players, because of the nice things I have used from cep. Even their scripts have made things much easier for me.

What's not to like about having more clothes. A lot of players like to dress up their characters.

I agree with you. Insults and bickering tend to scare off lurkers who might otherwise have joined the community proper. Insulting any group, it doesn't matter which, is always a bad call. Insulting comments about females keep women from joining things - which just perpetuates the 'girls don't play these games' myths. Being nice to girls is good - it means more girls to flirt with

I happen to like the CEP. Yes, it's huge, and yes, I'd have organized it differently, but the size of it is a side effect of making something that needs to keep a large and varied audience happy - not everyone wants this or that, but enough people do that it's a good idea to include it. If downloading the CEP is such a major hassle for your potential players that they decide they'd rather not play, you probably need to work on your synopsis writing skills. If your module sounds too amazing to miss, they won't scoff at downloading more haks to play it - and, once they have those haks, they're more likely to download other modules that use those haks, which opens the floodgates and means everyone downstream of you gets a much-needed bit of help in prompting reluctant downloaders to give something another chance.

[NWN_baba yaga]

@Sadira of Tyr
You may mean me and let me explain what you got wrong. If malishara the stanger female would be a guy i would call him the stranger dude so no disresepct to you ladies in any kind of form. You ladies are very sensitive and i got that but a little closer read showed you that I stompedon  that barry dude much more

And i love ladies!!! but malishara is no lady to me and just a stranger female being summoned by barry out of the nine hells who threated me/us:devil: and i dont like to be threated when i dont have a close range face to face. There is a difference between an insult and a treat at least imo!

Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 17 février 2013 - 02:21 .

[3RavensMore]

You ladies are very sensitive? A very wise man once said "Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt." You're comment was highly offensive.

[Rolo Kipp]

<taking off all his robes...>

My Momma used to tell me the only way to avoid Foot-in-mouth disease is to keep mouth shut :-)

*scratches head* Still working on figuring out what she meant... ;-P

<...and walking barefoot on coals>