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The Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir


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#251
SuperMaoriFulla

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novaseeker wrote...
Of course.  Loghain is captivated by his
own nationalist sense of paranoia.  So was Hitler.  Loghain probably
personally honestly believed he was doing the best thing for Ferelden,
in light of his paranoia issues.  Hitler also believed he was doing the
right thing for Germany and Europe, too, in light of his own way of
viewing the world. 

Loghain may very well have believed he was
doing what was best, but so did Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and so on.  If the
standard of morality is "what he thought was best", then we don't have
any moral standard at all.

Loghain made evil decisions,
regardless of what he personally thought about them.  His personal
views on them do not determine the morality of the actions he took.


The difference is Loghain witnessed and exeprienced firsthand the subjigation of his people by the Orlesian Empire, the collobaration of the nobility and Chantry with the occupiers, and the murders and executions committed to keep Ferelden under the thumb of the Orlesians. Loghain personally lost family, friends and comrades along the way and his experiences before and after he saved Maric and joined the rebellion hardened him. He will always be wary of the Orlesians and rightly so. And after seeing Ferelden fragmented, trampled underfoot and brutalized, Loghain will do anything he can (rightly or wongly) to prevent that from happening again.

Modifié par SuperMaoriFulla, 10 janvier 2010 - 10:37 .


#252
KnightofPhoenix

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Realmzmaster wrote...

KnightofPhoenix,
So you are saying that only the nobility have problems with slavery? You are assuming that the majority does not have a problem with it? The majority may treat the elves as second class citizens, it doe not mean that the majority is okay with slavery. What is to stop a ruler from selling anyone into slavery and justifying it by saying it is neccessary for the war effort?


Are you seriouisly saying that the people are going to be so sad by the fact that the elves that they have mstreated their whole life are being sold to protect their own nation? Haha. That's a very naive view of humans, I might say.

Security comes firs. If my nation is under attack and I found out that my government is selling people I don't care about to ensure the secutiry of my nation, I wouldn't care really. But if they did so with no reason except their personal interest, I would have been opposed to it..
And slavery is contained by nature. No government can sell their own people, so it's not a concern. Slavery is practised against minorities or foreigners.

#253
Ariella

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robertthebard wrote...

 He wouldn't have left him to die without a reason?  How about this reason; he couldn't take the throne with Cailin alive.


Exactly. I mean if you talk to the royal guard outside of Cailan's tent at Ostagar you learn that he and Loghain have been fighting constantly. I wouldn't be surprised if this fight goes back to the first reports of a horde in the Wilds and thus when Cailan became unmanagable (and probably when Loghain started  plotting against him)

#254
Bullets McDeath

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CAUSE FOR REJOICE FOR THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH ME AND/OR HATE MY STINKING GUTS!!

So, I PM'd Mr. Gaider to see if he could weigh in on this thread and hopefully put the debate to rest. He did not want to get dragged into this thread but he was kind enough to answer the questions I had for him via PM, so here's the skinny. There was more said but this is the most relevant part in regards to whether Loghain and Howe were in cahoots prior, whether Loghain authorized the Cousland murder, and whether he consciously premedidated Cailan's betrayal.

I don't think Loghain had anything to do with the death of the
Couslands. Once it was done, however, there wasn't really anything he
could do -- his alliance with Howe already existed, and the situation
at Ostagar tied his hands. He couldn't get rid of the only powerful
ally he had in his pocket.


I stand corrected. My execution is at 8, party starts at 8:15.

#255
Tirigon

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Then you CLEARLY did not understand anything I said.

The holocaust was utter stupidity because Hitler was spending ressources on something useless instead of funding the war effort and help save Germany from his expansionist policy that were doomed to fail. Plus, if Hitler had thought and if he had the Jews on his side, he would have gotten a very productive and strong people at his side (unlike the elves, who are useless). But he didn't. 
The holocaust served no purpose whatsoever. It didn't help the majority or the nation at all.

First statement: it´s debatable whether the elves are really useless. Besides, it´s a fascist assumption that you can divide people into useful and useless ones.
Second: Robbing the killed jews was used by Hitler to finance many of his actions, so, in an odd, perverted way it DID help him. Many Germans are still today claiming under Hitler life would have been better. This was because he used the money he stole from jews to finance social projects helping the "arian" population.

If the USA is under that much of a threat and under invasion, then selling anyone to finance the war effort is ok. 
Alternatively, if South Africa is attacked severly, then selling the white minority wouldn't be a bad thing, no.

Go tell that to a few black people, ok? I´d be interested in their reaction.

Yes the Chinese and Iranian suppression of so called "democrats" is justified, because those "democrats" are used by foreign powers to undermine the regime. The regime that the majority of people support. Plus, Iran had an election and the victor was decided, complaing about it is hypocritical.

Bullsh!t. They are not used to "undermine theregime". They are people who rightfully claim the freedom every human should have. And the election in Iran was manipulated for sure. Don´t believe every crap this dictator tells.

So no, I do not approve of just any action against a minority simply because they are a minority. It's only under extreme circumstances and with a clear purpose. Doing it for no reason is not justified. And it's not the end of the world either.


Extreme situations are not a valuation for ignoring human rights. There is a REASON why laws especially for situations like wars have been created, and why the basic human rights are supposed to be untouchable by the Government. No matter what there justification might be.

#256
Realmzmaster

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eschilde wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I agree with the nobles being hypocrites. That´s one of the many reasons why I said in another discussion I wished there was the possibility to kill them all.

I´m appalled by your ideas though. You are practicallly promoting slavery, genocide, robbing and so forth, as long as it´s not directed against the majority.
According to your statements, it would be ok if the USA would introduce slavery again, as black people are not the majority.
The Holocaust would be ok, because all it´s victims were part of minorities.
The Chinese / Iran suppression of democrats would be ok because these democrats are not the majority.

Please tell me you are joking.


Well, it is kind of similar to the Chinese supression of minorities. Naturally it wouldn't be approved of in the States at this time, but in other parts of the world it might be easily justifiable. It may not be morally correct to do, but if there won't be a backlash from the majority that you can't deal with, it may be something you don't feel bad doing. 

I suppose that comparing the elven population to blacks post-Civil War in the States is probably a good comparison. It wasn't considered wrong, and some of the blacks were treated well, but they were considered 'less' than whites at the time, and their 'betters' didn't care to change that. I don't think he's trying to say that it wasn't morally incorrect and shouldn't have been stopped at all costs, only that it was an acceptable status quo for the people who mattered in Fereldan at the time.


So we go back to treating certain people as property. Therefore we should not be shocked when the so-called minority start an uprising and begin butchering the majority using guerrilla tactics. Thereby having the majority fight on two fronts, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Loghain has becaome an enemy to the city elves. Maybe the cityelves should throw their support to the darkspawn since Loghain believes the Alienage will be lost anyway.

#257
eschilde

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Tirigon wrote...

Extreme situations are not a valuation for ignoring human rights. There is a REASON why laws especially for situations like wars have been created, and why the basic human rights are supposed to be untouchable by the Government. No matter what there justification might be.


Hm... I wasn't aware that John Locke had written a treatise on inalienable rights in the DA universe ;) but hey, I could be wrong.

#258
Tirigon

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Realmzmaster wrote...

So we go back to treating certain people as property. Therefore we should not be shocked when the so-called minority start an uprising and begin butchering the majority using guerrilla tactics. Thereby having the majority fight on two fronts, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Loghain has becaome an enemy to the city elves. Maybe the cityelves should throw their support to the darkspawn since Loghain believes the Alienage will be lost anyway.



I always wished you could support the darkspawn. They are so much more honest and intelligent than Loghain and his followers. And usually you kill more humans than darkspawn on a playthrough, anyways. Funny thing, that.

#259
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is already blood mages roaming in the country and they don't pose a threat on such a large scale as would legions of chevaliers. Plus, the tevinter mages have nothing to gain from taking over. It will expose their activities and put them at risk.
Of course, there could have always been the possibility, but it's slim. Worth the risk.
Tell me about those other ways.



Other ways: We learn in game that he has pretty much crushed a few rebellions, and slain a couple nobles. Nobles have wealth, and in many conflicts, the victor can seize the wealth of the loser. Not to mention, force the loser's soldiers into his ranks, or kill them. I think I remember mention of three nobles that Loghain had defeated. That's quite a bit of dosh. And, we can see Loghain really isn't that bothered about pissing anyone off, or winning hearts and minds.

By allowing the sale of elves, he is also giving to a foreign power potential recruits for an army. Even if he personally doesn't see the elves as worth much, he could still use them as fodder, if he has no confidence in their fighting capability.

And so you are arguing against the enslavement of the elves from a pratical point of view and not the morality of it? That's a welcome change at least.



It would be at cross purposes to do so, since you are not arguing from a moral standpoint, but one of pragmatism and intent. And since there are tons of people already arguing on the moral grounds against slavery, someone needs to examine the tactical problems with such methods.


He didn't sieze the throne, Anora was still Queen. And he had military experience, in a time of war, obviously it would be best to have him as regent. There was little reason for the nobility to rebel. They did because they too didn't think it was a blight and because they hate the idea of a commoner giving them orders. So yes, they are arrogant and stupid. And extremily useless.



Regent is a very powerful position, one that can be considered too close to the throne, so yes, it was a direct power grab. Had he good sense, he would have collaborated with his daughter and worked it to make his rise to regent seem like something natural and universally accepted. He did not utilize his greatest asset, his own daughter, who is, as he tells you himself, a born politician and a talker. And, since she's been running the show for 5 years, we can safely assume she is competant in all the manipulation and tactics of persuission necessary to get things done as favorably as possible.

But to jump up, declare himself regent without having the whole idea "sexed up" to the Landsmeet first? Epic fail of planning. He should know how the nobles think, and the Landsmeet works. He was a fool if he thought charging straight on would have had no consequences.


Well I agree with you here, he should have assasinated Teagan as well. And made sure most of the nobility is silenced
He wasn't a mastermind liek Bhelen no. But he was a hell alot better than those around him, except for the Grey Warden.



Yes, assassinating Teagan would have been a good idea (I can't believe I just said that, may his Studlieness forgive me), as well as found better ways to deal with the nobility. Running around assassinating any noble who disagrees with him would have been stupid, however. I am looking at his abject failure in preventing a rebellion. The nobles aren't just a bunch of spoiled rich kids riding in limos: they have armies, they have money, and they have power. Antagonizing them, alienating them, and starting a frigging civil war when you need them is suicide. You need to get them on your side, and in order to do that, you need a keen mind and slick tongue. Once again, Anora.[ We already know she is a master at playing people like fine tuned pianos./quote]

But in general I agree. I never said Loghain was a mastermind or a genius. But he wasn't an idiot either andhe wasn't insane.



He was a short sighted fool. He should have realized a civil war would have been inevitable, given the situation. He was also stuck in the past with his fear of Orlais He was looking too much backwards, not forwards. Not only with his paranoia of the Orlesians, but also the belief in his legend  and reputation would be enough to carry ferelden through the Blight. He also is arrogant, because he refused to believe there was any other way to win if it didn't involve him. He was delusional enough to believe only he was the answer, which basically, caused for ferelden, an epic, fatal fail for everyone.

#260
Tirigon

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eschilde wrote...

Hm... I wasn't aware that John Locke had written a treatise on inalienable rights in the DA universe ;) but hey, I could be wrong.


Hmmm. I wasn´t aware you actually base your morale on the DA universe.

But hey, I can be wrong. After all, Jedi is a accepted and established religion, why should the DA universe not be?

#261
KnightofPhoenix

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Tirigon wrote...
First statement: it´s debatable whether the elves are really useless. Besides, it´s a fascist assumption that you can divide people into useful and useless ones.
Second: Robbing the killed jews was used by Hitler to finance many of his actions, so, in an odd, perverted way it DID help him. Many Germans are still today claiming under Hitler life would have been better. This was because he used the money he stole from jews to finance social projects helping the "arian" population.


I did not base it on racialism, which is stupid. From what I see, the elves are weak. A sentiment that Sten shares.
And it's not because of their race.

But killing them was useless. So your point is moot. Robbing them is a different thing all together. And no, if he had the Jews on his side, he would have benefited more.

If the USA is under that much of a threat and under invasion, then selling anyone to finance the war effort is ok. 
Alternatively, if South Africa is attacked severly, then selling the white minority wouldn't be a bad thing, no.

Go tell that to a few black people, ok? I´d be interested in their reaction.



Which is preicely why I added the South African argument. So you don't accuse me of being a racist. And of course I expect their reactio nto be negative. How is this relevent?




Bullsh!t. They are not used to "undermine theregime". They are people who rightfully claim the freedom every human should have. And the election in Iran was manipulated for sure. Don´t believe every crap this dictator tells.


I am not going to argue about this. Suffice to say that the Chines government is doing a great job and if I was Chinese, I would suppot them 100%. And the Iranian government is better than the Shah regime. And yes, foreign influence have been present in Iranian history. Don't believe every crap the westerm media tells you.


Extreme situations are not a valuation for ignoring human rights. There is a REASON why laws especially for situations like wars have been created, and why the basic human rights are supposed to be untouchable by the Government. No matter what there justification might be.


When the **** hits the fan, nobody will care.
You are once again talign about ideals. I am not here to debate for or against ideals. What I am sayign is that ideals will become irrelevent when survival is at stake.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2010 - 11:00 .


#262
eschilde

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Tirigon wrote...

eschilde wrote...

Hm... I wasn't aware that John Locke had written a treatise on inalienable rights in the DA universe ;) but hey, I could be wrong.


Hmmm. I wasn´t aware you actually base your morale on the DA universe.

But hey, I can be wrong. After all, Jedi is a accepted and established religion, why should the DA universe not be?


Er.. the last time I checked we were arguing about the morality of a fictional character in the DA universe. I didn't say it was my personal view :)

I was trying to make the point that Thedas doesn't seem to have very advanced philosophies, well, inalienable rights, for one.


Edit:

Tirigon wrote...

I always wished you could support the darkspawn. They are so much more honest and intelligent than Loghain and his followers. And usually you kill more humans than darkspawn on a playthrough, anyways. Funny thing, that.


Mindlessly digging to find the next archdemon DOES seem so very appealing. And man, the prospect of becoming a broodmother is so very exciting! Who would say no to the process? I'd do it just for science! :wizard:

Modifié par eschilde, 10 janvier 2010 - 10:50 .


#263
Asylumer

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Asylumer wrote...

Figures I'd have to find something to disprove myself. Under the Prelude conversations with Loghain, if the player is a Human Noble, the localization comment heavily implies that Loghain was with Howe in a plan to kill Cailan... which is directly contradicted by the later comment at the Landsmeet where Loghain genuinely believes he didn't betray Cailan.

... Somebody care to explain that to me? Now, I did get the feeling that the story took some drastic changes at some point, and the prelude was the first part of the game finished. In one of the old endings, Anora damns her father as hopelessly insane. So either Loghain's guilt was completely changed at one point, or the developers intentionally sowed contradicting messages so discovering the truth wouldn't be as simple as scouring the comments.



... So I get only one reply to this... interesting.

Looks like I'll have to take a crack at it myself:

Loghain was clearly meant at one point to be guilty of Cailan's betrayal. The Ostagar dialogue comments strongly point towards Loghain organizing the murder of Cailan, and the arguments against Loghain used to be very different than the ones we see now. I know this because of the comments left in the Single Player module -- the old dialogue is far more determined in saying that Loghain is insane. Yet the (supposedly) newer dialogue comments clearly state that Loghain did not believe he betrayed Cailan. I say they are newer because the old anti-Loghain dialogue is plainly marked as such, and Ostagar is the only place where Human Commoner dialogue is still in use, so it must have been among the first.

Conclusion: The story changed at some point, and Loghain went from the madman most envison him as to a far more plausible villain, one who's joining with the PC was better explained. A lot of dialogue still points towards the old ending Loghain though. This is why some in-game events may seem highly biased against Loghain, because at that point in development, he WAS definitely responsible for Cailan's death.

Yet there is no conclusive evidence for betrayal in-game. All that I've seen has been assumptions about Loghain's involvement, and what his pre-battle plans were. Howe is not conclusive proof. He was distrusted, but he was also a known friend to Bryce and the Couslands, and even Duncan thought he could get away with telling the King a lie. If you want to prove to me that Loghain was guilty, create your own scenario for how things played out, and make sure it accounts for everything that happens in-game. If you want to prove that Loghain is crazy you'll need to find a good explanation for why he changes after being defeated. I find "crazy-on, crazy-off" to be very unconvincing.

outlaworacle wrote...

So, I PM'd Mr. Gaider to see if he could weigh in on this thread and
hopefully put the debate to rest. He did not want to get dragged into
this thread but he was kind enough to answer the questions I had for
him via PM, so here's the skinny. There was more said but this is the
most relevant part in regards to whether Loghain and Howe were in
cahoots prior, whether Loghain authorized the Cousland murder, and
whether he consciously premedidated Cailan's betrayal.


Good to hear. For what it's worth, I think you were right at one point in development. See above.

#264
eschilde

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@Asylumer

From what I can tell, I don't think that many people think Loghain was bat **** crazy. I think most agree that Loghain IS guilty of betraying Cailin, but whether he intended to do so at Ostagar is what is questionable. I don't think that conflicts with anything.

I rather doubt Loghain was meant to be a madman villain at any point in conception, at least when the actual story was starting to fall into place. Based on what I've heard of the books, as well as from what you can see in the game, (not to mention having some faith in Bioware ;), the idea of Loghain being a calculating kind of person whose paranoia gets the better of him, and his making the best of the situation as is, makes sense.

Anyway, there's already one mindless villain in the game ;) wouldn't be fun for Loghain to be one too.

#265
KnightofPhoenix

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Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Other ways: We learn in game that he has pretty much crushed a few rebellions, and slain a couple nobles. Nobles have wealth, and in many conflicts, the victor can seize the wealth of the loser. Not to mention, force the loser's soldiers into his ranks, or kill them. I think I remember mention of three nobles that Loghain had defeated. That's quite a bit of dosh. And, we can see Loghain really isn't that bothered about pissing anyone off, or winning hearts and minds.

By allowing the sale of elves, he is also giving to a foreign power potential recruits for an army. Even if he personally doesn't see the elves as worth much, he could still use them as fodder, if he has no confidence in their fighting capability.



And you are assuming that Loghain didn't already do that?

It is known that Tevinter uses elves as slaves and not as an army. And even if they did, it will not be a threat to Ferelden, as Tevinter is occupied with fighting the Qunari.

Regent is a very powerful position, one that can be considered too close to the throne, so yes, it was a direct power grab. Had he good sense, he would have collaborated with his daughter and worked it to make his rise to regent seem like something natural and universally accepted. He did not utilize his greatest asset, his own daughter, who is, as he tells you himself, a born politician and a talker. And, since she's been running the show for 5 years, we can safely assume she is competant in all the manipulation and tactics of persuission necessary to get things done as favorably as possible.

But to jump up, declare himself regent without having the whole idea "sexed up" to the Landsmeet first? Epic fail of planning. He should know how the nobles think, and the Landsmeet works. He was a fool if he thought charging straight on would have had no consequences.



Once again, I never said Loghain was efficient.
I was arguing the logic of his action, which had no problem except his ignorance vis a vis the Grey Wardens.
But yes I know, Loghain's plan had too many faults in it.

Yes, assassinating Teagan would have been a good idea (I can't believe I just said that, may his Studlieness forgive me), as well as found better ways to deal with the nobility. Running around assassinating any noble who disagrees with him would have been stupid, however. I am looking at his abject failure in preventing a rebellion. The nobles aren't just a bunch of spoiled rich kids riding in limos: they have armies, they have money, and they have power. Antagonizing them, alienating them, and starting a frigging civil war when you need them is suicide. You need to get them on your side, and in order to do that, you need a keen mind and slick tongue. Once again, Anora.[ We already know she is a master at playing people like fine tuned pianos.


Didn't max out his coercision skill I guess.
I agree with you. Loghain is a miltiary man, not a true politician.

He was a short sighted fool. He should have realized a civil war would have been inevitable, given the situation. He was also stuck in the past with his fear of Orlais He was looking too much backwards, not forwards. Not only with his paranoia of the Orlesians, but also the belief in his legend  and reputation would be enough to carry ferelden through the Blight. He also is arrogant, because he refused to believe there was any other way to win if it didn't involve him. He was delusional enough to believe only he was the answer, which basically, caused for ferelden, an epic, fatal fail for everyone.


He didn't think it was a blight at first. Had he known, he would have reconsidered or changed a part of his plan.
His paranoia of the Orlesians was justified. Not on an emotional level only, but on a political level. It's not wise to allow legions of Chevaliers to just walk in the country.

And let's not forget that it's a game, aka all of Ferelden is useless without the PC and it cannot win without the PC. He wasn't delusional. He just doesn't know that there is a god like being roaming Ferelden.  

#266
Realmzmaster

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KnightofPhoenix,
If extreme situations dictate extreme actions, then the elves rebelling or rioting would come as no surprise. Therefore if they take up arms against their oppressors (the majority) it is justifible even during a time of war. Because Loghain is forcing them into an extreme situation.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 10 janvier 2010 - 11:00 .


#267
Tirigon

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I´m not going to argue abut all of that, but some points need clarification.


KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Robbing them is a different thing all together.

It´s not the right thing to do.

Which is preicely why I added the South African argument. So you don't accuse me of being a racist. And of course I expect their reactio nto be negative. How is this relevent?


It´s relevant because they are people, for f*cks sake! They have their own lifes, hopes and dreams! You can not take that away from them because you "need to for your cause"! States exist to protect the individual and to give him a room to live. Therefore you can´t sacrifice individuals for the state.


I am not going to argue about this. Suffice to say that the Chines government is doing a great job and if I was Chinese, I would suppot them 100%.

My uncle is married to an asian women who has chinese relatives. These relatives came to Germany because life in China wasn´t bearable anymore. So I can disagree with that from personal experience.

And the Iranian government is better than the Shah regime. And yes, foreign influence have been present in Iranian history. Don't believe every crap the westerm media tells you.


I don´t believe the western media, but it´s a known fact that the election was faked. And, yes, foreign influences have been present in the Iran. So what? Does this give the government a right to oppress Iranian people? Ultimately, even if a foreign power would take control over the iran they wouldn´t be less legitimate than the current government.


When the **** hits the fan, nobody will care.
You are once again talign about ideals. I am not here to debate for or against ideals. What I am sayign is that ideals will become irrelevent when survival is at stake.


Not necessarily. There are cases in which people fought for their ideals, and usually they brought improvement for everyone. Both of us would not even have the chance to discuss politics like we do now if it wasn´t for the sake of people risking their lifes for ideals.

#268
KnightofPhoenix

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Realmzmaster wrote...

KnightofPhoenix,
If extreme situations dictate extreme actions, then the elves rebelling or rioting would come as no surprise. Therefore if they take up arms against their oppressors (the majority) it is justifible even during a time of war. Because Loghain is forcing them into an extreme situation.


Of course it is. That's why I respect the dalish and not the alienage elves.
Had I been n elf,  I wouldn't have allowed humans to enslave my race for their interest.

Likewise, if I am a mage, I couldn't care less what the nonmages think of me, so I would free my kin. If I was a non-mage, I would support the Templars because the mages are a potential threat.

IT's all relative.

#269
Tirigon

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eschilde wrote...


Mindlessly digging to find the next archdemon DOES seem so very appealing. And man, the prospect of becoming a broodmother is so very exciting! Who would say no to the process? I'd do it just for science! :wizard:



Hey, let´s wait for the Awakening, all right? There are talking, intelligent darkspawn, so you might have to change your attitude. Besides, I´d rather search for an archdemon than being sold as slave to an unscrupulous bloodmage who kills me for his rituals....

#270
novaseeker

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Asylumer wrote...

Leyt22 wrote...

You don't forgive a madman's crimes because his screwy head thought they were just.


My original post argued that Loghain was not mad, but have you ever heard of an insanity plea? I'm pretty sure we have protection for the mentally unstable because, you know, it's widely considered immoral to execute them for an illness.

Just saying...


Under US law, that defense is rather narrow.  The M'Naghten test of insanity, as a defense, is limited to cases where it can be demonstrated that a mental defect created an inability to tell right from wrong, such that one's actions were essentially involuntary -- that you did not know what you were doing, not that you thought what you were doing was right, according to your own "logic".  The idea is that you were not capable of making a logical decision -- and that isn't at all what we see in Loghain, as you point out so methodically in your post.  Loghain is very, very far away from meeting the M'Naghten test of legal insanity.  He deliberately did what he did, for his own misguided reasons, and deserved the beheading he got in my playthrough.

#271
KnightofPhoenix

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Tirigon wrote...

When the **** hits the fan, nobody will care.
You are once again talign about ideals. I am not here to debate for or against ideals. What I am sayign is that ideals will become irrelevent when survival is at stake.


Not necessarily. There are cases in which people fought for their ideals, and usually they brought improvement for everyone. Both of us would not even have the chance to discuss politics like we do now if it wasn´t for the sake of people risking their lifes for ideals.


I will only answer this, because once again you are telling me what you think is good and what you think is evil in the other arguments, which is irrelevent. I couldn't care less to be blunt.

Only when such ideals bring improvement. And only when they have the luxury to believe in them. I am not dismising the power of ideals. I am saying that when hyou are confronted with a life / death situation, you will forget about your ideals or at the very least compromise them.

THe only exception is religion, because pleasing God is more improtant than anythign else. So it's the only thing I can imagine people unwilling to compromise. And even then, the Prophets themselves did a big amount of compromises to win.

#272
eschilde

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Tirigon wrote...

eschilde wrote...


Mindlessly digging to find the next archdemon DOES seem so very appealing. And man, the prospect of becoming a broodmother is so very exciting! Who would say no to the process? I'd do it just for science! :wizard:



Hey, let´s wait for the Awakening, all right? There are talking, intelligent darkspawn, so you might have to change your attitude. Besides, I´d rather search for an archdemon than being sold as slave to an unscrupulous bloodmage who kills me for his rituals....


lol, I was teasing in any case. The Awakening will answer some questions, I'm sure. But I think in this case humanity has a better chance to improve in the future, while.. uh.. I gotta say, I'll pass on a broodmother transformation :b that's just me, though!

#273
novaseeker

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SuperMaoriFulla wrote...

novaseeker wrote...
Of course.  Loghain is captivated by his
own nationalist sense of paranoia.  So was Hitler.  Loghain probably
personally honestly believed he was doing the best thing for Ferelden,
in light of his paranoia issues.  Hitler also believed he was doing the
right thing for Germany and Europe, too, in light of his own way of
viewing the world. 

Loghain may very well have believed he was
doing what was best, but so did Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot and so on.  If the
standard of morality is "what he thought was best", then we don't have
any moral standard at all.

Loghain made evil decisions,
regardless of what he personally thought about them.  His personal
views on them do not determine the morality of the actions he took.


The difference is Loghain witnessed and exeprienced firsthand the subjigation of his people by the Orlesian Empire, the collobaration of the nobility and Chantry with the occupiers, and the murders and executions committed to keep Ferelden under the thumb of the Orlesians. Loghain personally lost family, friends and comrades along the way and his experiences before and after he saved Maric and joined the rebellion hardened him. He will always be wary of the Orlesians and rightly so. And after seeing Ferelden fragmented, trampled underfoot and brutalized, Loghain will do anything he can (rightly or wongly) to prevent that from happening again.


How is this different from Hitler, again?  Hitler fought in WWI, witnessed his country losing, and being placed under such an onerous reparations regime as to create hyperinflation and bankrupt the country, creating political chaos.  Hitler had his own "Orlesian problem", and his own solution for it, and most everything he did was justified by the memories of what happened in WWI and its aftermath, just as Loghain is haunted by the Orlesian occupation and liberation war.

Careful here.  Loghain was drawn rather carefully against our own real history, as are other elements of DA:O.  The parallels are not direct, but there are enough commonalities to draw parallels nonetheless.

Evil acts are not justified by historical experiences or grievance.

#274
Tirigon

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Of course it is. That's why I respect the dalish and not the alienage elves.
Had I been n elf,  I wouldn't have allowed humans to enslave my race for their interest.

Likewise, if I am a mage, I couldn't care less what the nonmages think of me, so I would free my kin. If I was a non-mage, I would support the Templars because the mages are a potential threat.

IT's all relative.


Why? Are you so damn single-minded that you can´t defend the elfs´ right to have their own culture, the mages´ right to be free and the templars´ importance to protect the people from the few mages who abuse their power to terrorize innocents?

Ever heard of the term "peaceful coexistence"?

Maybe everyone has a right to live his life like he wishes to? What does it matter to which group you belong?

#275
eschilde

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Realmzmaster wrote...

So we go back to treating certain people as property. Therefore we should not be shocked when the so-called minority start an uprising and begin butchering the majority using guerrilla tactics. Thereby having the majority fight on two fronts, because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Loghain has becaome an enemy to the city elves. Maybe the cityelves should throw their support to the darkspawn since Loghain believes the Alienage will be lost anyway.


Well, I've said before Loghain needs to read the Art of War. Generally pissing off your own population is not the best for maintaining sovereignty or morale. BUT that doesn't mean that what he was doing wasn't anything he couldn't handle, which may have been enough to justify doing it. I'm not trying to argue the morality, just the practicality for taking this course of action. I am guessing Loghain wouldn't have done this unless he was seriously pressed for options.