1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarethus]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

Well, to be honest, you can never have a law that is not forgotten. The UNO can make all the laws they want but everyone knows that they do not really have the power to back them up.

Yes, laws are useless unless you have the will and the muscle to back them up. In many areas of the world, even in the West, many laws are broken openly and ignored because the local authorities either don't have the manpower, or the enforcers lack the will to enforce them.

Thus, in the case of the elves, selling the elves off into slavery was a broken law that would largely go unopposed by the majority, since no oen really cares what goes on in the alienage. When you go to Landsmeet, an organization of human nobles, try using the selling of elves into slavery arguement. It earns you a fail. Because, while slavery is against the law, given everything else going on, it's not a law that the nobility is particularly concerned with enforcing or prosecuting.

The Chantry doesn't seem that bothered, either. In the end, a law is only as good as the will and desire to follow and enforce it. otherwise, it's an empty declaration.

Actually I got the feeling that the Nobility were fairly bothered by the slavery bit. Fereldan's seem to revere the idea of freedom while their actual practice leaves somewhat to be desired.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Oh, some of the bluebloods were certainly offended, but it wasn't enough to get their panties in a twist over it, and thus, sway them to your cause in the Landsmeet. Maybe they didn't like the idea of pool of labor that contains their potential service staff being depleted by sales to foreign empires.

But bringing up slavery of the elves at the Landsmeet actually is one of the choices that hurts your arguements in getting the support of the Landsmeet.

[robertthebard]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh, some of the bluebloods were certainly offended, but it wasn't enough to get their panties in a twist over it, and thus, sway them to your cause in the Landsmeet. Maybe they didn't like the idea of pool of labor that contains their potential service staff being depleted by sales to foreign empires.

But bringing up slavery of the elves at the Landsmeet actually is one of the choices that hurts your arguements in getting the support of the Landsmeet.

No, it's good for one point.  You only need five points to win, but mentioning that Loghain left the King to die in Ostagar will lose you points, because, as Eamon points out, it's an accusation made w/out proof.  Despite what a poster in another thread said, we have no idea how the battle was going when we light the beacon.  We could be so late that Loghain was right to pull out.  However, since he couldn't see the battle field from where he was, I don't think he could really know one way or the other, despite what he says to Wynne.  Be that as it may, it seems this discussion has deteriorated to "might makes right", and justifying Loghain selling elves to pay for troops that he needs to fight his civil war.  You see, all he had to do was hand the crown back to Anora, act as military advisor, and the civil war would have been avoided.  Despite how "fortuitous" the Banns would still see his withdrawal as, he's still a respected military leader.

However, he can't very well do that, since he's already taken it by "force".  As I indicated earlier, in my first post here, he's so obssessed with keeping Orlais out that he refuses to see the truth.  While around mid game he does begin to see that he was wrong about what's going on, by then it was far too late to back pedal.  Eamon's already been poisoned, the Couslands have been effectively sacked, and Cailin is dead.  He has to play the hand he dealt himself, and he mistakenly assumed that the Banns would just unite under his banner to fight the darkspawn, despite his taking the crown.  If he'd gone the PC route with Alistair or Anora, and used her as his puppet, instead of taking the crown, he might have actually gotten the support he wanted.  It would not have been enough, since he had no Grey Wardens to end the Blight, but he might have been able to unite Ferelden to Anora's banner to fight them.  Instead, he holds on to the Orlais obssession, all the way to the Landsmeet.  It proves to be his undoing.

[RangerSG]

Aseya wrote...

Asylumer wrote...


... Somebody care to explain that to me? Now, I did get the feeling that the story took some drastic changes at some point ....

There are some weird incosistency when u play through various origins - doenst have to do anything with this thread but as a mage there is a converstaion with Wynne where you can say you miss life in mage tower and she says something in the lines its been almost a YEAR since you left.

That's hardly an "inconsistency." That conversation typically happens after you've done 2 of the main quest line items. Given the travel times you've been invovled in, a year to get to that point is very realistic.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]robertthebard wrote...

[quote]No, it's good for one point.  You only need five points to win, but mentioning that Loghain left the King to die in Ostagar will lose you points, because, as Eamon points out, it's an accusation made w/out proof.  Despite what a poster in another thread said, we have no idea how the battle was going when we light the beacon.  We could be so late that Loghain was right to pull out.  However, since he couldn't see the battle field from where he was, I don't think he could really know one way or the other, despite what he says to Wynne.  Be that as it may, it seems this discussion has deteriorated to "might makes right", and justifying Loghain selling elves to pay for troops that he needs to fight his civil war.  You see, all he had to do was hand the crown back to Anora, act as military advisor, and the civil war would have been avoided.  Despite how "fortuitous" the Banns would still see his withdrawal as, he's still a respected military leader.[/quote]

Yes, which is a point I've made in previous posts. he should have let his daughter, who by all accounts, could sell ice to eskimos at a 300% mark up, deal with the talking part and getting everyone on the same sheet of music through subtler means.

Every time I tried using the elves as an arguement at Landsmeet, I lost. So unless I'm looking forward to a brawl, i stopped using that arguement.

[quote]However, he can't very well do that, since he's already taken it by "force".  As I indicated earlier, in my first post here, he's so obssessed with keeping Orlais out that he refuses to see the truth.  While around mid game he does begin to see that he was wrong about what's going on, by then it was far too late to back pedal.  Eamon's already been poisoned, the Couslands have been effectively sacked, and Cailin is dead.  He has to play the hand he dealt himself, and he mistakenly assumed that the Banns would just unite under his banner to fight the darkspawn, despite his taking the crown.  If he'd gone the PC route with Alistair or Anora, and used her as his puppet, instead of taking the crown, he might have actually gotten the support he wanted.  It would not have been enough, since he had no Grey Wardens to end the Blight, but he might have been able to unite Ferelden to Anora's banner to fight them.  Instead, he holds on to the Orlais obssession, all the way to the Landsmeet.  It proves to be his undoing.[/quote]

Yes, my previous posts pointed out just that. ****** poor planning and execution, blinded by events and prejudices of his own past, ect. The Civil war could have been avoided if he had played his cards right, and used the resources at his disposal, which were considerable, discounting the Grey Warden issue.

[RangerSG]

robertthebard wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh, some of the bluebloods were certainly offended, but it wasn't enough to get their panties in a twist over it, and thus, sway them to your cause in the Landsmeet. Maybe they didn't like the idea of pool of labor that contains their potential service staff being depleted by sales to foreign empires.

But bringing up slavery of the elves at the Landsmeet actually is one of the choices that hurts your arguements in getting the support of the Landsmeet.

No, it's good for one point.  You only need five points to win, but mentioning that Loghain left the King to die in Ostagar will lose you points, because, as Eamon points out, it's an accusation made w/out proof.  Despite what a poster in another thread said, we have no idea how the battle was going when we light the beacon.  We could be so late that Loghain was right to pull out.  However, since he couldn't see the battle field from where he was, I don't think he could really know one way or the other, despite what he says to Wynne.  Be that as it may, it seems this discussion has deteriorated to "might makes right", and justifying Loghain selling elves to pay for troops that he needs to fight his civil war.  You see, all he had to do was hand the crown back to Anora, act as military advisor, and the civil war would have been avoided.  Despite how "fortuitous" the Banns would still see his withdrawal as, he's still a respected military leader.

However, he can't very well do that, since he's already taken it by "force".  As I indicated earlier, in my first post here, he's so obssessed with keeping Orlais out that he refuses to see the truth.  While around mid game he does begin to see that he was wrong about what's going on, by then it was far too late to back pedal.  Eamon's already been poisoned, the Couslands have been effectively sacked, and Cailin is dead.  He has to play the hand he dealt himself, and he mistakenly assumed that the Banns would just unite under his banner to fight the darkspawn, despite his taking the crown.  If he'd gone the PC route with Alistair or Anora, and used her as his puppet, instead of taking the crown, he might have actually gotten the support he wanted.  It would not have been enough, since he had no Grey Wardens to end the Blight, but he might have been able to unite Ferelden to Anora's banner to fight them.  Instead, he holds on to the Orlais obssession, all the way to the Landsmeet.  It proves to be his undoing.

qft. Loghain is sunk on two counts:

1) He doesn't want anything to do with Orlais. And he sees the Grey Wardens as being in bed with Orlais (not entirely without justification, but still obsessive paranoia).

2) He doesn't want to believe the prophecy. Because if he does, then it's a Blight. And if it IS a Blight, then being left a vassal state of Orlais is better than being left ravaged by the Darkspawn. And either way, his work of a lifetime will be undone.

Also, as noted, the elven slavery argument nets you 1 of the 5 you need. You still need 4 other nobles to win. 3-4 is a "hung jury," less than 3 you lose.

Claiming Loghain left the king to die is always a loser. Claiming Howe was torturing people can either be a winner or a loser (depending on how you do sidequests beforehand). Saying "I'm not the one who betrayed Ferelden" is a loser unless you have a VERY high persuade. Generally, if you want to win, stick to the known facts and do NOT tell Anora you plan to kill Loghain.

Modifié par RangerSG, 11 janvier 2010 - 01:58 .

[menasure]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Greyshaft1 wrote...

If Loghain truly believed he could not reach the king why does he publically lie and blame the wardens for the kings death?
.

He says that the battle is lost because the Grey Wardens (you!) lit the Beacon to late, which technically could be perfectly true. Of course there are the matter of all the Darkspawn that was in the way, but still...

Just how the darkspawn got to overrun the tower is a big mystery to me, especially as the tower was supposed to be secured. That's one of the big question marks in the game, for me.

it has been a while since i played but i think it was the guard holding the gate in front of the tower who mentions something about how they discovered some underground tunnels under the tower so there is probably a branch of the deep roads underneath.

[Realmzmaster]

What life/death situation are you talking about? Loghain did not believe it was a true Blight until he declared so at the Landsmeet. Unless he was lying to himself or came to a sudden revelation. He basically bullied his daughter into making him regent. The other arls and banns did not accept this new ruler (commoner or otherwise). He forcibly took the throne and tried to legitimize it by his daughter, the Queen..

No the other arls and banns are not going to follow him because they do not see him as a legtimate ruler. He instigated a civil war, because the king has to be accepted at Landsmeet. Loghain tried to get around this fact by having himself declared regent. Which is really interesting. because regents are usually selected because the actual ruler is a minor. Anora is not minor. The other reason for a regent is because the royal line has died out. But in that case the regent is elected. The nobles are not stupid, this was simply a poltical trick to grab power.

He could have simply stayed the general of the army and ruled through his daughter by using her as his puppet. The problem is that Anora did not want to be a puppet. Loghain could not have a puppet he could not control. Also he did not think see was qualified enough to rule. Even though she had been making the decisions and feeding them to Callin. The one army Anora should have had control over is controlled by her father. The army was loyal to him and not the crown.

The only life/death situation is the life or death of Loghain's grab for power and his paranoia about Orlais. For most of the game there is no Blight as far as he is concerned so how can there be a life and death situation.

If you get Loghain as a companion, you get to ask him about his plan for the Blight. He states that he was going to divide his forces with one half protecting the border with Orlais and the other half fighting the Blight. When you show him the stupidity of this plan. He remarks "I did not say it was a good one" So basically he would have squandered any funding with a stupid plan. Even if Orlais attacked he would be defeated on two fronts by the darkspawn and Orlais. Orlais would still have Grey Wardens to kill the ArchDemon. Loghain paranoia would have simply doomed the land he sought to protect.

[Ulicus]

I get the impression - and that's all it can be - that, before it even started, Loghain honestly believed the battle to be unwinnable. If not, then at the least that victory would come at too great a cost. As such, I don't think he ever intended to have his men light the beacon.  The plan existed soley to appease Cailan's desire for a battle then and there.

That said, I think he was genuine in his attempts to persuade Cailan to wait for reinforcements (just not from Orlais) and, had he had the authority to order Cailan to stay away from the frontlines, he would have done.

I also think he did come to blame the Wardens for Cailan being there, however unjustified he might've been.

Ultimately, while I can accept Loghain being responsible for many of the crimes laid at his feet... when it comes to his actively plotting Cailan's death? I just don't buy it. Even if he was in cahoots with Howe, even if he did poison Eamon before Ostagar... I don't think that was Loghain manouvering for the throne: I think that was Loghain "preparing for the worst". (Per his TST characterisation)

I find it easier to swallow that, the minute Loghain realised that Cailan could and perhaps would get himself killed - given his insatiable desire to be in the thick of things - he began moving to ensure that power would remain with his daughter (and, by extension, himself) on the event of the King's death. If that meant doing terrible things, so be it.

What makes that even more interesting to me is that then events become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Had Loghain not prepared so extensively for Cailan's death; had he not felt so confident that he'd be able to continue to guide Ferelden along its proper course in the event of its beloved King's demise... maybe he'd have fought harder to save him.

And maybe he would have.

Modifié par Ulicus, 11 janvier 2010 - 02:14 .

[Sarethus]

RangerSG wrote...

Aseya wrote...

Asylumer wrote...


... Somebody care to explain that to me? Now, I did get the feeling that the story took some drastic changes at some point ....

There are some weird incosistency when u play through various origins - doenst have to do anything with this thread but as a mage there is a converstaion with Wynne where you can say you miss life in mage tower and she says something in the lines its been almost a YEAR since you left.

That's hardly an "inconsistency." That conversation typically happens after you've done 2 of the main quest line items. Given the travel times you've been invovled in, a year to get to that point is very realistic.

Not really that conversation purely depends on your relationship level with Wynne, my character got it just after getting the first treaty (Mage Tower) and talking with her in camp. 

Ulicus wrote...

I get the impression - and that's all it can be - that, before it even started, Loghain honestly believed the battle to be unwinnable. If not, then at the least that victory would come at too great a cost. As such, I don't think he ever intended to have his men light the beacon.  The plan existed soley to appease Cailan's desire for a battle then and there.

That said, I think he was genuine in his attempts to persuade Cailan to wait for reinforcements (just not from Orlais) and, had he had the authority to order Cailan to stay away from the frontlines, he would have done.

I also think he did come to blame the Wardens for Cailan being there, however unjustified he might've been.

Ultimately, while I can accept Loghain being responsible for many of the crimes laid at his feet... when it comes to his actively plotting Cailan's death? I just don't buy it. Even if he was in cahoots with Howe, even if he did poison Eamon before Ostagar... I don't think that was Loghain manouvering for the throne: I think that was Loghain "preparing for the worst". (Per his TST characterisation)

I find it easier to swallow that, the minute Loghain realised that Cailan could and perhaps would get himself killed - given his insatiable desire to be in the thick of things - he began moving to ensure that power would remain with his daughter (and, by extension, himself) on the event of the King's death. If that meant doing terrible things, so be it.

What makes that even more interesting to me is that then events become something of a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Had Loghain not prepared so extensively for Cailan's death; had he not felt so confident that he'd be able to continue to guide Ferelden along its proper course in the event of its beloved King's demise... maybe he'd have fought harder to save him. 

And maybe he would have.

The battle was fairly winnable. Fair because in battle anything can happen but Duncan and quite a few other soldiers were confident enough in the plan and Ostagar's defensive position. 

What would have after that particular battle would be more doubtful. The darkspawn numbers would have continued to grow and the battle after that or the third or fourth battle after that would have been lost due overwhelming numbers unless Cailan or Loghain broke down and accepted help from Orlais and Eamon. 

Modifié par Sarethus, 11 janvier 2010 - 02:26 .

[novaseeker]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Every time I tried using the elves as an arguement at Landsmeet, I lost. So unless I'm looking forward to a brawl, i stopped using that arguement.

Hmph.  I used it and didn't lose the debate.  I didn't use it as my first argument, mind you, but as "piling on" material, and it went over very well once they were softened up.  I have to say I had no lack of confidence whatsoever in swaying the landsmeet against Loghain and didn't even give it much thought -- he's a scoundrel after all.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I didn't get the impression that Loghain thought the battle was unwinnable, but that he thought Cailan was an idiot, and that the king's overenthusiasm and faith in the Grey Warden's would potentially doom his battle plans. He was also less than happy, obviously, everytime Cailan talked about bringing Orlesians in. Loghain said that they didn't need them.

[wwwwowwww]

All very interesting, however, if he is not guilty then his why his actions after the battle.



- If he was innocent he could have simply told everyone that by the time he was signaled to join the fight it was already too late, and he could not lead his men and woment to a slaughter.



Instead, he puts all the blame for the killing of the King on the Grey Wardens rather than the darkspawn. He goes out of his way to hunt down the Grey Wardens for a ficticious crime, even going so far as hiring assassins from a neighboring country to kill the remaining Wardens.



These are not the actions of an innocent man. These are the actions of a man desperate to eliminate anyone who might stand up and tell the truth of what happend at Ostagar.



- We know that he is guilty of hiring an apostate to kill the Kings uncle, and hiring someone to watch and report back to him anything that happens at the castle. When he hired the individuals is basically irrelevant.



It is obvious that he is systematically trying to eliminate anyone that would oppose him starting with the Couslands, even if he did not order the elimination he did not oppose it and having howe as his right hand only strengthens the argument that he supported that action, then he did not come to the field to support the King instead leaving him to die. Next he hires someone to eliminate the Arl of Redcliff, followed by hiring assassins to eliminate the remaining Grey Wardens. Finally he even turns on his own daughter because she dared to speak up against him if even only in front of a handful of people.



None of these are the actions of an innocent man. These are the actions of a man who saw the opportunity to seize control of a nation for himself.

[Ulicus]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I didn't get the impression that Loghain thought the battle was unwinnable, but that he thought Cailan was an idiot, and that the king's overenthusiasm and faith in the Grey Warden's would potentially doom his battle plans.

What he actually tells Cailan is: "Your fascination with gory and legends will be your undoing, Cailan. We must attend to reality." (My emphasis)

And what is that reality? 

"We need more men!"

In the lead-up to the battle, Loghain tries a number of times to get Cailan to reconsider:

A) Fighting the battle at all
 Standing on the front lines

I think it's pretty clear that Loghain doesn't think they've got a hope in hell, and the way the scene ends implies pretty heavily that Loghain knows how its going to end. His voice is almost dripping with irony, after all. He knows how unglorious it's going to be because he knows, then and there, that he'll be ordering the retreat.

That doesn't mean he wanted it to be that way and it doesn't mean he was rubbing his hands with glee at the thought of Cailan perishing. I'd be very surprised if he was. Instead, he's throwing his hands up, telling himself, "I tried to save him! Curse those Wardens and their legend!" and preparing to get the hell out of dodge.

[menasure]

wwwwowwww wrote...

All very interesting, however, if he is not guilty then his why his actions after the battle.

- If he was innocent he could have simply told everyone that by the time he was signaled to join the fight it was already too late, and he could not lead his men and woment to a slaughter.

Instead, he puts all the blame for the killing of the King on the Grey Wardens rather than the darkspawn. He goes out of his way to hunt down the Grey Wardens for a ficticious crime, even going so far as hiring assassins from a neighboring country to kill the remaining Wardens.

These are not the actions of an innocent man. These are the actions of a man desperate to eliminate anyone who might stand up and tell the truth of what happend at Ostagar.

- We know that he is guilty of hiring an apostate to kill the Kings uncle, and hiring someone to watch and report back to him anything that happens at the castle. When he hired the individuals is basically irrelevant.

It is obvious that he is systematically trying to eliminate anyone that would oppose him starting with the Couslands, even if he did not order the elimination he did not oppose it and having howe as his right hand only strengthens the argument that he supported that action, then he did not come to the field to support the King instead leaving him to die. Next he hires someone to eliminate the Arl of Redcliff, followed by hiring assassins to eliminate the remaining Grey Wardens. Finally he even turns on his own daughter because she dared to speak up against him if even only in front of a handful of people.

None of these are the actions of an innocent man. These are the actions of a man who saw the opportunity to seize control of a nation for himself.

the trouble with the tower is the line of sight: if Loghain had an overview of the battle he would not even need the beacon to signal him when to attack so i do not think he can see much of the battle itself.

there are however strong suggestions in game that loghain wanted to prevent the beacon from being lit, by locking the gate there and posting a guard, having his own men in the tower...  eventually it is Cailan who overrules Loghain for that part by sending 2 grey wardens. the trouble loghain faces is that a lit tower could expose him when he did not stick to the plan by the ones who knew about that plan but there are really not that many left alive who are proven to know the plan directly anyway. in any case i would really see it as far stretched to think that loghain made some kind of deal with the darkspawn: they are brainless monsters ... at least in this part of dragonage (expansion coming)

in any case if it was not his intention to get rid of the grey wardens from the start -because he thought they were part of an orlesian conspiracy or simply because he hated how cailin seemingly favored them- then he had an easy time to blame them for the kings death afterward.

the funny part is that it is howe who requests to have the grey wardens killed by the crowes and who is the one leading them in denerim? an orlesian guy while you already know that zevran also came from that direction!
maybe there really was an orlesian conspiracy going on but not from a side which Loghain anticipated
anyway it would not surprise me if anora also had even more tricks up her sleeve than the whole rescue and landsmeet charade but there is hardly a clue about the whole role she plays in game so though i really want to i can not see her as one of the usual suspects here .

Modifié par menasure, 11 janvier 2010 - 03:14 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ulicus wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I didn't get the impression that Loghain thought the battle was unwinnable, but that he thought Cailan was an idiot, and that the king's overenthusiasm and faith in the Grey Warden's would potentially doom his battle plans.

What he actually tells Cailan is: "Your fascination with gory and legends will be your undoing, Cailan. We must attend to reality." (My emphasis)

And what is that reality? 

"We need more men!"

In the lead-up to the battle, Loghain tries a number of times to get Cailan to reconsider:

A) Fighting the battle at all
 Standing on the front lines

I think it's pretty clear that Loghain doesn't think they've got a hope in hell, and the way the scene ends implies pretty heavily that Loghain knows how its going to end. His voice is almost dripping with irony, after all. He knows how unglorious it's going to be because he knows, then and there, that he'll be ordering the retreat.

That doesn't mean he wanted it to be that way and it doesn't mean he was rubbing his hands with glee at the thought of Cailan perishing. I'd be very surprised if he was. Instead, he's throwing his hands up, telling himself, "I tried to save him! Curse those Wardens and their legend!" and preparing to get the hell out of dodge.

I'm refering to the conversation you have with him outside his tent, as well. And I interpreted his remarks very differently. 

During the cutscene, his reaction to the beacon being lit, and his orders to Cauthrien, as him not expecting the beacon to be lit at all, and annoyance and surprise when it was. Which made me think he had no plans on entering the battle at all.

I did not get the impression that Loghain thought the battle was unwinnable, I got the impression he was exasperated and angry because the king wanted to bring entities that Loghain either despised, or distrusted immensely, into the fight, and thus, THAT would be the king's undoing, not the actual battle itself.

[Sarethus]

Ulicus wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I didn't get the impression that Loghain thought the battle was unwinnable, but that he thought Cailan was an idiot, and that the king's overenthusiasm and faith in the Grey Warden's would potentially doom his battle plans.

What he actually tells Cailan is: "Your fascination with gory and legends will be your undoing, Cailan. We must attend to reality." (My emphasis)

And what is that reality? 

"We need more men!"

In the lead-up to the battle, Loghain tries a number of times to get Cailan to reconsider:

A) Fighting the battle at all
 Standing on the front lines

I think it's pretty clear that Loghain doesn't think they've got a hope in hell, and the way the scene ends implies pretty heavily that Loghain knows how its going to end. His voice is almost dripping with irony, after all. He knows how unglorious it's going to be because he knows, then and there, that he'll be ordering the retreat.

That doesn't mean he wanted it to be that way and it doesn't mean he was rubbing his hands with glee at the thought of Cailan perishing. I'd be very surprised if he was. Instead, he's throwing his hands up, telling himself, "I tried to save him! Curse those Wardens and their legend!" and preparing to get the hell out of dodge.

Problem with that scenario is as I said, we have Duncan saying that this plan would work (ie. the battle is winnable) We also have a number of soldiers stating that Ostagar has good defences and that they could win even when outnumbered as they were.

Also note he states that line when you quoted when Cailan praises the new Grey warden recruit (PC) for surviving. No where during the strategy discussion does he state they need more men. He does state that he doesnt want the Orlesians though.

Finally during the strategy discussion, Loghain was trying to dissuade Cailan from fighting with the Grey Wardens but at best you could argue that he didn't want the King to die in the trap he set for the grey wardens while at worst he was using reverse psychology to goad him into the trap.    

[wwwwowwww]

menasure wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

All very interesting, however, if he is not guilty then his why his actions after the battle.

- If he was innocent he could have simply told everyone that by the time he was signaled to join the fight it was already too late, and he could not lead his men and woment to a slaughter.

Instead, he puts all the blame for the killing of the King on the Grey Wardens rather than the darkspawn. He goes out of his way to hunt down the Grey Wardens for a ficticious crime, even going so far as hiring assassins from a neighboring country to kill the remaining Wardens.

These are not the actions of an innocent man. These are the actions of a man desperate to eliminate anyone who might stand up and tell the truth of what happend at Ostagar.

- We know that he is guilty of hiring an apostate to kill the Kings uncle, and hiring someone to watch and report back to him anything that happens at the castle. When he hired the individuals is basically irrelevant.

It is obvious that he is systematically trying to eliminate anyone that would oppose him starting with the Couslands, even if he did not order the elimination he did not oppose it and having howe as his right hand only strengthens the argument that he supported that action, then he did not come to the field to support the King instead leaving him to die. Next he hires someone to eliminate the Arl of Redcliff, followed by hiring assassins to eliminate the remaining Grey Wardens. Finally he even turns on his own daughter because she dared to speak up against him if even only in front of a handful of people.

None of these are the actions of an innocent man. These are the actions of a man who saw the opportunity to seize control of a nation for himself.

the trouble with the tower is the line of sight: if Loghain had an overview of the battle he would not even need the beacon to signal him when to attack so i do not think he can see much of the battle itself.

there are however strong suggestions in game that loghain wanted to prevent the beacon from being lit, by locking the gate there and posting a guard, having his own men in the tower...  eventually it is Cailan who overrules Loghain for that part by sending 2 grey wardens. the trouble loghain faces is that a lit tower could expose him when he did not stick to the plan by the ones who knew about that plan but there are really not that many left alive who are proven to know the plan directly anyway. in any case i would really see it as far stretched to think that loghain made some kind of deal with the darkspawn: they are brainless monsters ... at least in this part of dragonage (expansion coming)

in any case if it was not his intention to get rid of the grey wardens from the start -because he thought they were part of an orlesian conspiracy or simply because he hated how cailin seemingly favored them- then he had an easy time to blame them for the kings death afterward.

the funny part is that it is howe who requests to have the grey wardens killed by the crowes and who is the one leading them in denerim? an orlesian guy while you already know that zevran also came from that direction!
maybe there really was an orlesian conspiracy going on but not from a side which Loghain anticipated
anyway it would not surprise me if anora also had even more tricks up her sleeve than the whole rescue and landsmeet charade but there is hardly a clue about the whole role she plays in game so though i really want to i can not see her as one of the usual suspects here .

If line of site is an issue, then why the retreat? Why feel your leading your men to a slaughter unless you can see what's going on? 

As for Howe, he didn't request he suggested a way of dealing with them presenting the Crowes to Lohgain who was the one who actually paid for them to kill the Wardens.

Oh and dumb question, is Antiva in Orleis? I'm so confused

[fantasypisces]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Oh, some of the bluebloods were certainly offended, but it wasn't enough to get their panties in a twist over it, and thus, sway them to your cause in the Landsmeet. Maybe they didn't like the idea of pool of labor that contains their potential service staff being depleted by sales to foreign empires.

But bringing up slavery of the elves at the Landsmeet actually is one of the choices that hurts your arguements in getting the support of the Landsmeet.

People always say don't bring up the slave bit, that it hurts you. Are you all sure? Maybe if your PC is an elf.

My Human Noble PC's always bring it up and I win the landsmeet with full votes (besides the one that is always auto Loghain).

Like you can't bring up framing wardens because you are a warden, you can't bring up the King because none of them are there, I figure as a noble you can bring up Howe because you are biased, and as an elf you can't bring up the slaves.

But yeah, I have never lost a vote for brining up the slaves, I always gained a vote.

[SuperMaoriFulla]

novaseeker wrote...


How is this different from Hitler, again?  Hitler fought in WWI, witnessed his country losing, and being placed under such an onerous reparations regime as to create hyperinflation and bankrupt the country, creating political chaos.  Hitler had his own "Orlesian problem", and his own solution for it, and most everything he did was justified by the memories of what happened in WWI and its aftermath, just as Loghain is haunted by the Orlesian occupation and liberation war.

Careful here.  Loghain was drawn rather carefully against our own real history, as are other elements of DA:O.  The parallels are not direct, but there are enough commonalities to draw parallels nonetheless.

Evil acts are not justified by historical experiences or grievance.

Loghain grew up knowing nothing but the Orlesian occupation. He and his father are on the run, from both the Orelesian occupation forces and those Ferelden's who collaborated. Loghain isn't overtly racist towards non-humans in the same way that the Fereldan noblility commonly treats elves, or indeed how the Orlesian occupiers regarded Ferelden's citizens as uncivilized and uncouth. In fact Loghain is one of the few commanders in Maric's army who saw the potential in elves as being capable soldiers, and more than servants and menial laborers.

Loghain makes the transition from outlaw and poacher to resistance fighter and confidant to the King rather reluctantly. He's not a sparkling conversationalist, his first instinct is distrust and wariness, and he has no illusions that the other commanders amongst the rebels only tolerate him because he has the favor of the leadership. Loghain's military tactics against the Orlesians were guerilla in nature - ambushes, raids, and harrassment skirmishes. Eventually as he gains command, Loghain demonstrates he can implement and handle larger scale engagements against the Orlesian forces.

Loghain commits acts during the occupation and resistance uprising that can be considered 'evil' - but for the most part they're necessary evils that strengthen the legitmacy of Maric's kingship and Ferelden's independence. Loghain doesn't go out of his way to start wars with the enemies of Ferelden, he makes sure that King Maric's forces wins them - on the battlefield if he can, but through any other means if needed.

Hitler's probably to strong a comparison. If I had to draw a real world parallel, I'd compare Loghain to Vo Nguyen Giap. A general and commander, rather than a leader and ruler.

Modifié par SuperMaoriFulla, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:22 .

[Ulicus]

Skadi_the_evil_elf wrote..

I'm refering to the conversation you have with him outside his tent, as well.

The one where he says legends won't win it....

Skadi_the_evil_elf wrote..
During the cutscene, his reaction to the beacon being lit, and his
orders to Cauthrien, as him not expecting the beacon to be lit at all,
and annoyance and surprise when it was. Which made me think he had no
plans on entering the battle at all.

Preaching to the choir, there.

Skadi_the_evil_elf wrote..
I did not get the
impression that Loghain thought the battle was unwinnable, I got the
impression he was exasperated and angry because the king wanted to
bring entities that Loghain either despised, or distrusted immensely,
into the fight, and thus, THAT would be the king's undoing, not the
actual battle itself.

I got the impression that Loghain had a (grudging) respect for the Wardens, but didn't think a handful of them could turn the battle.

As he can say to the Warden who claims Cailan isn't his/her King:

"Nonetheless, the fate of your order rests in his hands. Remember that."

Why say that at all unless it was what he believed?

Sarethus wrote...

Problem with that scenario is as I said, we have Duncan saying that this plan would work (ie. the battle is winnable) We also have a number of soldiers stating that Ostagar has good defences and that they could win even when outnumbered as they were.

Duncan saying the plan would work means only that Duncan thinks it will lure out the archdemon and give them a shot to end the Blight. It doesn't necessarily mean that Duncan thinks they're going to get through it with flying colours. Besides, Duncan isn't the tactician (we're told) Loghain is. There's a reason he's going "look to Teyrn Loghain to make up the difference" and I can't imagine it's because he's better at the job.

And, as I mentioned previously, even if Loghain thought they had a chance of winning the battle (and my own opinion is that they could well have ended the Blight then and there... but I'm not Loghain), he may have judged it would be at too great a cost. Sometimes it's better to withdraw than gain a phyricc victory.

Since there isn't a Blight in his eyes and this is just a prolonged darkspawn incursion, why throw so many lives away on this one battle?

Sarethus wrote...
Also note he states that line when you quoted when Cailan praises the new Grey warden recruit (PC) for surviving. No where during the strategy discussion does he state they need more men. He does state that he doesnt want the Orlesians though.

Really? Hmm. Maybe I remembered wrong, then. I was pretty certain that line was what prompted Cailan to say "Then perhaps we should wait for the Orlesians".

If I'm mistaken, then "whoops".

Sarethus wrote...
Finally during the strategy discussion, Loghain was trying to dissuade Cailan from fighting with the Grey Wardens but at best you could argue that he didn't want the King to die in the trap he set for the grey wardens while at worst he was using reverse psychology to goad him into the trap.    

Yeah, this whole "trap for the Grey Wardens" thing conjecture as far as I'm concerned. Loghain didn't give a crap if they died, sure - but it was Cailan who demanded that he and the Grey Wardens be out at the forefront. I get the impression Loghain would have happily held the walls with everyone rather than fight that battle then and there. Or left. That wouldn't have been a smart move of course, since this is a Blight... but that doesn't factor into Loghain's decisions.

Until after Ostagar, where they're useful as scapegoats and at that point just Orlesians wanting to come into the country in his eyes, I don't really get the impression he has a huge vendetta against them. He doesn't think they're needed and isn't bothered about throwing them to the wolves if it means he can save his own forces... but I don't think it's a "bwahahahaha i shall destroy the Wardens" scheme.

[SarEnyaDor]

His father didn't raise him in the wilds. His father used to serve Maric's grandfather. His father had a home and a wife who was raped and killed before his eyes, and then his father hunted down the Orleasian Chevalier who did it and killed him and THEN they went on the run in the wilds.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:08 .

[Ulicus]

Gareth Mac Tir = BAM*

[jennamarae]

Had I posted prior to reading the books I likely wouldn't have been able to find a single nice word to say about Loghain. Having read them though I have to say I have new-found respect for the man. He does a lot of things that are reprehensible, but knowing now his background I can understand his line of thinking. He suffered horribly at the hands of Orlesians and I can completely understand his fear of them trying to invade the country all over again. Fear over-rides his reason and while that doesn't make his actions (or the actions of others that he allows) right, they at least make more sense.

[SuperMaoriFulla]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

His father didn't raise him in the wilds. His father used to serve Maric's grandfather. His father had a home and a wife who was raped and killed before his eyes, and then his father hunted down the Orleasian Chevalier who did it and killed him and THEN they went on the run in the wilds.

I stand corrected. I forgot about some of the smaller details. Reccently read the books.

Loghain was living a very hard hand to mouth existence (criminal) when he first encountered Maric, courtesy of the Orlesians.

Loghain's father did serve and was knighted at the last momment by the young Maric, before Maric and Loghain fled into the Wilds...