1429 réponses à ce sujet

[soteria]

13 pages in 19 hours, not bad.



I'm not taking time to respond to the whole OP, but just brief thought reveals a few errors--you smear Ser Donall's testimony, saying he didn't know what he was talking about and was probably addicted to lyrium. Ooook... whatever. It doesn't matter. We have Jowan's testimony about what happened: Loghain appeared to him in person and gave him his instructions, including the order to poison Arl Eamon. The order was issued BEFORE the battle took place, meaning the whole thing was premeditated.



Add to that the fact that Arl Howe seems to be Loghain's right hand man, and, if he doesn't agree to everything Howe does, he certainly turns a blind eye to it, and Loghain doesn't look quite so innocent. He planned to murder Arl Eamon before the battle, and afterward tries to murder the PC to stop the story from getting out. Directly or indirectly, he has removed the two greatest threats to a coup before the battle (Arl Eamon and Teryn Cousland).



Nowhere is it evident that Loghain could see the battle and decided it was hopeless. Never before the battle does he say that it was hopeless. If he thought so, he should have said so--but he doesn't. He approves the plan and moves forward.



You may argue his motivation was good (trying to prevent another Orlesian occupation) but trying to say he didn't purposefully betray the king takes some willful blindness. Does he regret the cost? Certainly, but he still does it.

[SandiKay0]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Loghain must always die.

No matter how you slice it, he betrayed Maric, and he betrayed Rowan, by not doing everything in his power to save Cailan, no matter what the cost.

I personally think he hated Cailan for being Maric's son more than he loved Cailan for being Rowan's.

Yes! Yes! Perfect!

For those folks who have read The Stolen Throne how many times does Loghain ride into insane battles to save Maric the true king the Therin Bloodline? He fought at Maric's side or at his back.

Loghain's betrayal's begin by:

Being the Queen Rowan's love.
Forcing Maric to kill Katrial in anger.
Leaving Cailin to die.
By destroying everthing Maric and his mother fought for having a Therin on the throne.
*By trying to destroy Alistair the only other blood of Maric that we know of.

(* Does Loghian really know that Alister is Maric's for certain? The end of the Calling makes you wonder.)

Loghain betrayed Maric's acomplishments and sacrifices five years after he died. Loghain forced Maric to harden. But he didn't even attempt to harden Cailin. Why is that? Was it becuase he felt that he already had control over the throne through his daughter?


What about the rumor that said that Loghain left King Cailin to die on the field becuase he was cheating on Queen Anora? Wouldn't you just **** if his mistress would be an elven woman?!

[Apophis2412]

SandiKay0 wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Loghain must always die.

No matter how you slice it, he betrayed Maric, and he betrayed Rowan, by not doing everything in his power to save Cailan, no matter what the cost.

I personally think he hated Cailan for being Maric's son more than he loved Cailan for being Rowan's.

Yes! Yes! Perfect!

For those folks who have read The Stolen Throne how many times does Loghain ride into insane battles to save Maric the true king the Therin Bloodline? He fought at Maric's side or at his back.

Loghain's betrayal's begin by:

Being the Queen Rowan's love.
Forcing Maric to kill Katrial in anger.
Leaving Cailin to die.
By destroying everthing Maric and his mother fought for having a Therin on the throne.
*By trying to destroy Alistair the only other blood of Maric that we know of.

(* Does Loghian really know that Alister is Maric's for certain? The end of the Calling makes you wonder.)

Loghain betrayed Maric's acomplishments and sacrifices five years after he died. Loghain forced Maric to harden. But he didn't even attempt to harden Cailin. Why is that? Was it becuase he felt that he already had control over the throne through his daughter?


What about the rumor that said that Loghain left King Cailin to die on the field becuase he was cheating on Queen Anora? Wouldn't you just **** if his mistress would be an elven woman?!

Why must Loghain die? He may have been a criminal, but there are more important things to worry about, like the Blight.

[Whisa]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Why must Loghain die? He may have been a criminal, but there are more important things to worry about, like the Blight.

Reasoning behind the execution:

1) He betrayed his king.  Yes, it's ambigous to us the players.  However, in the eyes of the nobles, he did just that.
2) He betrayed his country.  He split them in a civil war with darkspawn ravaging them.
3) He tried to FORCE people to follow him.  Including things he had no right to do, such as seizing their lands.  (Chanters Board Mission, his men have orders to "take the land" if they do not agree).
4) He does not seem to be sorry for any of it at the landsmet.  And does not respect the votes of the landsmet.
5) He tried to have the king's half-brother killed.  Whether he knew Alistair was or not (everyone else seems to!), he almost wiped out the most respected line in the kingdom.
6) Keeping him alive will only continue the split between Loghain and Not-Loghain.  Divided forces against a blight?  Bad.  You need a united force to fight the bigger enemy, not one that might splinter off.

Yes, some of those are evident to us as being either partially false or ridiculous for some.  However, this is what the people who are executing him see.  They don't have the advantage of talking to him after he's killed to see what happened and to see he regrets it.  They don't have the knowledge that there was a prophecy of betrayal that made him unable to see that it would be a blight.  They don't have the knowledge that the man's probably got PTSD and the thought of Orlais makes his mind go boom.  They deal with the facts outlined above.

Modifié par Whisa, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:29 .

[SandiKay0]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Why must Loghain die? He may have been a criminal, but there are more important things to worry about, like the Blight.

I meant yes to loghain hated Maric's son Cailin more than he loved Rowans son part.

But the reason Loghain needs to die in my opinion is that I believe that he has been working on taking over the throne for sometime. Becuase he believes that no one but him can possibly save Ferelden. Becuase King Cailin is so not King Maric. And his daughter Anora is no Rowan or the Rebel Queen. It is left to him to save Ferelden. He believes that deep down inside. No one but him. Everyone else is not capable of winning becuase he sees himself as infallable. That's my reason Loghain must die.

Oh how wrong he is. That's why I always have Alistair beat him. So he can see that I make Alistair badass lol.

Modifié par SandiKay0, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:33 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I do not share your same definition of "evil". In fact, I dont' even recognise the word.

Yes, we already established long ago that you have zero morals. Not surprpising you like Loghain.


@Asylumer
You defense of Loghain is useless and flimsy. Various aspects of hi crimes have been discussed before in great detail, some devs even commented. Loghains guilt is proved beyond a shadow of doubt.

You can choose to ommit quotes or lines (like Davids statement that the timeline is some cases may seem off - like Jowans poisoning of Eamon - but it is still what happened)

And yes, Loghian did wor with Howe and is partially to blame for the Cousland massacre. No story Howe could come up with could possibly excuse him or explain his actions. One does NOT massacre a whole noble family, down to the last woman and child, in their own home, in self-defence.
Even if they were the greatest traitors Ferelden ever seen, such an action would still be unanceptable. The king should be informed first, a inqury made.

[Apophis2412]

SandiKay0 wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Why must Loghain die? He may have been a criminal, but there are more important things to worry about, like the Blight.

I meant yes to loghain hated Maric's son Cailin more than he loved Rowans son part.

But the reason Loghain needs to die in my opinion is that I believe that he has been working on taking over the throne for sometime. Becuase he believes that no one but him can possibly save Ferelden. Becuase King Cailin is so not King Maric. And his daughter Anora is no Rowan or the Rebel Queen. It is left to him to save Ferelden. He believes that deep down inside. No one but him. Everyone else is not capable of winning becuase he sees himself as infallable. That's my reason Loghain must die.

Oh how wrong he is. That's why I always have Alistair beat him. So he can see that I make Alistair badass lol.

I do not argue that Loghain has done some despeciable things. My point however is that your duty as Grey Warden (defeating the Blight) is more important than bringing justice to criminals. Every warrior is needed to defeat the Blight. We'll worry with justice after the Archdemon is dead.

[SandiKay0]

Apophis2412 wrote...


I do not argue that Loghain has done some despeciable things. My point however is that your duty as Grey Warden (defeating the Blight) is more important than bringing justice to criminals. Every warrior is needed to defeat the Blight. We'll worry with justice after the Archdemon is dead.

Oh I wasn't making an argument. It was just that my piont of view was that sure the Grey Wardens need even criminals and such to become Grey Wardens to fight the blight I agree. But I am a new warden who still have morals and values. I wasn't really interned llike Duncan was... and really neither was Alister. So I can still make those choices. Do I want someone who tried to murder me multiple times at my back while I am trying to stop a blight? Ok reason number 1 why I would never want to give Loghain the same ability as me is that now I am expendable he can kill me freely and then get killed killing the archdemon or not killing the archdemon. But putting someone I cannot trust at my back is faulty to me. I simply can not get past the putting a ruthless killer at my back and trust him not to kill me while I am fighting darkspawn.  Call me silly I can't go there.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Apophis2412 wrote...
I do not argue that Loghain has done some despeciable things. My point however is that your duty as Grey Warden (defeating the Blight) is more important than bringing justice to criminals. Every warrior is needed to defeat the Blight. We'll worry with justice after the Archdemon is dead.

And this is exactly why I kill him. Cause he's a liabiltiy and insane and I don't need any more distractions.
He's done nothing but hinder myefforts against the Blight.

[Jaldecir]

1. Was Arl Eamon poisoned before or after the battle?

This was covered a bit on the topic that I created which you replied and I agreed with. The answer is actually that it's simply a plot hole rather than a strict Yes or No. Ser Donall did say that Arl Eamon was sick before Cailan died. Jowan said he was brought to Denerim which indicated that Loghain met Jowan after the event at Ostagar. However, either way there's no real conclusion because it's a plothole with no one at Bioware to confirm which one is right/wrong.



2. Loghain sided with Uldred

The evidence is not Wynne's suspicion, but Loghain's own confirmation about it during the dialogue with Wynne (which you quoted mid-way of your post). Right there, Loghain admitted that it was his idea that Uldred worked with the demons.



4. The Murder of the Couslands

If you play as human noble and talk to Loghain at Ostagar, he will specifically say to the Cousland that Howe will pay for what he did. But the fact is, once Cailan died, Loghain did not make Howe "pay" for slaughtering Cousland family.



5. The Battle of Ostagar

The main concern for me is that the Tower of Ishal was previously locked by the order of Loghain. And when it's opened ready for beacon lighting, suddenly it was overrun by darkspawn. Of course it can be pure coincidence as there's no hint whatsoever that Loghain worked together with darkspawns, but it does sound suspicious. Maybe more likely that Loghain knew of the existence of the darkspawn at the tower but chose not to do anything about it to purposely delay the beacon to be lit.



Also, his facial feature when the beacon was lit showed total surprise as if he wasn't expecting the beacon to be lit at all. This is purely speculation obviously, but there's no way to confirm/deny either way.



The answer to that is self-evident. Loghain never betrayed Cailan, at least not intentionally.



The problem with that statement is that once Cailan died, Loghain did put himself as the regent, and then obviously tried to gain power and eliminated challengers. Had he not intending to betray Cailan, then he would have no need to poison Arl Eamon and whatnot. After all, there should be no problem if Eamon became the King if Loghain didn't intend to betray Cailan.



6. Loghain's Madness

I actually never think that Loghain is insane/crazy/mad. However, I do believe that Bioware made a mess with Loghain's characterization because there are quite some contradictory things that he did. Crazy enough to betray Cailan but not crazy enough to kill Anora. Crazy enough to put Ferelden at risk (by not allowing Grey Warden to help even when it was becoming obvious that it was indeed a Blight), but not crazy enough to simply just became a dictator. Loghain is a contradictory character and I don't like how he's portrayed in the game at all. If things are meant to be explained from the books, I think it's a very bad decision because things should be included in the game too.



PC: "You were the one who fled the battle and left him to die!"

[Coerlic mocks the PC depending on origin/race]

Loghain: "You goaded him into making the charge! He believed the tales, Warden! He thought that your handful of men would turn the tide for him, strategy and consequences be hanged!

This is questionable because hell, the PC was a brand new Grey Warden. Why blame the PC? It doesn't make sense. It's as if he wanted to blame Duncan, but putting the PC as the culprit instead. Also, do note that Duncan was right that Blight was there. It was Loghain who did not believe that it was a Blight. Thus, refusing outside help. It was Loghain's insistence on not wanting Orlesian help AND Cailan's insistence on not waiting for Eamon's men to arrive that cost them their lives. However, we have to remember that Loghain was the man in charge for strategy. It was Loghain's decision to make the strategy like it was. In my opinion, he failed to produce the proper strategy, intentionally or not.



PC: "What do you know about justice? You left Cailan to die!

Loghain: "Warden, Cailan was Maric's son. Had there been any chance of reaching him at Ostagar, I would have fought to my last breath to save him."

This is questionable as well. Had there been any chance of reaching Cailan at Ostagar, he would have fought to his last breath to save him? Really? Of course there had been a chance of rescuing Cailan at Ostagar. Was it a tiny chance? Yeah. But in the end, Loghain's decision was to retreat to save his men and at the same time, abandoned Cailan. If he truly believe that he would have fought to his last breath to save Cailan, he would've sent his men in with the intention to rescue Cailan. Fact is, Loghain did NOT even try. I'm not arguing whether it was the right decision or not. I'm simply pointing the fact that Loghain chose NOT to try rescue Cailan which contradicted his speech about his willingness to save Cailan.



My Own Conclusion

To me, I still feel that Bioware made a mistake with the game's execution about how Loghain was portrayed. It was contradictory and we ended up with half-baked character. Point is, people who quickly jumped to conclusion would easily say that Loghain is bad and evil. But at the same time, people who stopped for a while and thought things a bit more thoroughly could produce somewhat respectable argument about how Loghain wasn't bad like what Asylumer did (props to you btw). It feels to me that Loghain would've been MUCH better had he simply been willing to kill Anora. It would make his character as someone who is really willing to anything for the country. Not someone who pretended to be willing to do anything for the country, except killing his own daughter.

[Whisa]

Jaldecir wrote...

2. Loghain sided with Uldred
The evidence is not Wynne's suspicion, but Loghain's own confirmation about it during the dialogue with Wynne (which you quoted mid-way of your post). Right there, Loghain admitted that it was his idea that Uldred worked with the demons.

Pretty sure that's him being sarcastic.  He wouldn't destroy one of hte big things that makes sure that people don't want to mess with Ferelden - that's not in line with any of his behavior at all.  The very wording of the quote also leads toward sarcasm, as does the fact that it doesn't benefit him at all.

And to the killing of his daughter...  had he killed her, he would not have retained the throne.  He was holding the throne in HER name, not his own.  Killing her would have held his attempts to "save" Ferelden back.  Perfectly inline with his character.

• Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that
  Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter
  destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.
• Loghain: Are you satisfied now?

Modifié par Whisa, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:51 .

[jon 45]

Jaldecir wrote...
4. The Murder of the Couslands
If you play as human noble and talk to Loghain at Ostagar, he will specifically say to the Cousland that Howe will pay for what he did. But the fact is, once Cailan died, Loghain did not make Howe "pay" for slaughtering Cousland family.

Just a quick comment: Loghain does not say that Howe will pay. He says "Cailan told me of his promise. I am sure he has every intention of following through with it."

I love the bolded part as it shows Loghain being deliberately vague without having to lie to your face. A wonderful display of his more subtle side.

[jsachun]

Loghain thinks he's still battling Orlais & not Darkspawns.

Perhaps the Blight should've been made up of Orlaisian Darkspawns & not Fereldan Drakspawns.

Modifié par jsachun, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:03 .

[Whisa]

jsachun wrote...

Loghain think he's still battling Orlais & not Darkspawns.

Perhaps the Blight should've been made up of Orlaisian Darkspawns & not Fereldan Drakspawns.

Or WAS it?  My god, he's on to something here...

[Jaldecir]

Pretty sure that's him being sarcastic. He wouldn't destroy one of hte big things that makes sure that people don't want to mess with Ferelden - that's not in line with any of his behavior at all. The very wording of the quote also leads toward sarcasm, as does the fact that it doesn't benefit him at all.

While it does sound like he was being sarcastic, I wouldn't count it out as if it didn't happen at all. When the dialogue happened, Wynne didn't even bring up Uldred to start with. It was Loghain who brought up Uldred.



The part about not benefitting him is questionable because if Uldred took over the Circle of Magi, then it'll mean that Blood Magic would become somewhat legal (might not be the best word to describe, but sorry, English isn't my mother language, but hopefully you get the idea) only if Uldred had the support of Loghain (acting as regent or the man in charge of the nation). If Uldred took over the Circle of Magi without Loghain's support (let's assume that people thought Eamon would take over), then Eamon (or whoever in charge that isn't working together with Uldred) would potentially shut down the Circle of Magi because of how Blood Magic is seen as evil.



So the fact that Uldred pulled a coup at the tower showed that he had a support from Loghain if he did take over the tower. Otherwise, no point in taking over the Circle of Magi, only to be attacked by the Chantry. Uldred NEEDED Loghain's power to survive.



Also note that Blood Magic is supposed to be very strong. Uldred being the head of Circle of Magi could potentially be an even stronger weapon for Loghain/Ferelden to fight the darkspawn.

And to the killing of his daughter... had he killed her, he would not have retained the throne. He was holding the throne in HER name, not his own. Killing her would have held his attempts to "save" Ferelden back. Perfectly inline with his character.

Of course he would retain the throne. Remember that his plan was to eliminate his challengers too. With the challengers gone, the one that caused him the biggest challenge is Anora herself. By eliminating Anora, he eliminated the strongest challenger left.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jaldecir wrote...

1. Was Arl Eamon poisoned before or after the battle?
This was covered a bit on the topic that I created which you replied and I agreed with. The answer is actually that it's simply a plot hole rather than a strict Yes or No. Ser Donall did say that Arl Eamon was sick before Cailan died. Jowan said he was brought to Denerim which indicated that Loghain met Jowan after the event at Ostagar. However, either way there's no real conclusion because it's a plothole with no one at Bioware to confirm which one is right/wrong.

He was poisoned before. David Giader confirmed it. He aslo commented that if hte timeline seems a bit off, then it's something that slipped by them when they were makign the story. But that doesn't change what officialy happened.

6. Loghain's Madness
I actually never think that Loghain is insane/crazy/mad. However, I do believe that Bioware made a mess with Loghain's characterization because there are quite some contradictory things that he did. Crazy enough to betray Cailan but not crazy enough to kill Anora. Crazy enough to put Ferelden at risk (by not allowing Grey Warden to help even when it was becoming obvious that it was indeed a Blight), but not crazy enough to simply just became a dictator. Loghain is a contradictory character and I don't like how he's portrayed in the game at all. If things are meant to be explained from the books, I think it's a very bad decision because things should be included in the game too.

People can be extreemly contradictory and/or self-delusional in real life.
And Loghain is VERY self-delusional. 

[Whisa]

Jaldecir wrote...

While it does sound like he was being sarcastic, I wouldn't count it out as if it didn't happen at all. When the dialogue happened, Wynne didn't even bring up Uldred to start with. It was Loghain who brought up Uldred.

The part about not benefitting him is questionable because if Uldred took over the Circle of Magi, then it'll mean that Blood Magic would become somewhat legal (might not be the best word to describe, but sorry, English isn't my mother language, but hopefully you get the idea) only if Uldred had the support of Loghain (acting as regent or the man in charge of the nation). If Uldred took over the Circle of Magi without Loghain's support (let's assume that people thought Eamon would take over), then Eamon (or whoever in charge that isn't working together with Uldred) would potentially shut down the Circle of Magi because of how Blood Magic is seen as evil.

So the fact that Uldred pulled a coup at the tower showed that he had a support from Loghain if he did take over the tower. Otherwise, no point in taking over the Circle of Magi, only to be attacked by the Chantry. Uldred NEEDED Loghain's power to survive.

Also note that Blood Magic is supposed to be very strong. Uldred being the head of Circle of Magi could potentially be an even stronger weapon for Loghain/Ferelden to fight the darkspawn.

She did not bring it up, but he's well aware that she's a mage and very likely blames him for the situation at the tower.  That dialogue also suggests that they knew each other before (and possibly before Ostagar, or they spent a lot of time around each other there) and were aware of each other's personalities.  And really, there were two options - she's glaring at him because she hates him for deserting the king or hates him for what he's done to her tower.

The nobles also DO NOT have control over the tower.  The chantry does and the templars do.  And they'd be the first to start purging people in the name of the Maker for being blood mages.  Simply put: even with Loghain's approval, the Circle would be destroyed from those that really control it.  Loghain can't destroy the entire chantry and the templars - just imagine public reaction.  There's no way the Circle could go publicly blood mage or blood magic become legal just because of the guy on the throne.

And I don't think Uldred intentionally went back to take over and turn Irving and all the others into abominations.  According to Wynne, Irving went and confronted him about the events at Ostagar.  A screaming match insued from the accusations hurled back and forth.  And when you've got angry mages, someone's probably going to start throwing a spell.   Especially with someone of Uldred's personality.  Given that Uldred's been dabbling in blood magic, he's not that far from summoning demons..  who decide that Uldred looks tasty.  If there was anyone else in that meeting (and we seem to have evidence there were quite a few) we have a lot of people making the same mistake, either because they simply can't control the demon or they panic and mess their spells up.

And while blood magic is strong, I believe most of it's strength comes from the ability to manipulate others.  You can't manipulate the darkspawn into not attacking - against Orlais it might work, but against the darkspawn?  No real reason to turn to it, unless you expect to get demons to attack darkspawn.

Of course he would retain the throne. Remember that his plan was to eliminate his challengers too. With the challengers gone, the one that caused him the biggest challenge is Anora herself. By eliminating Anora, he eliminated the strongest challenger left.

Correct.  But he DIDN'T have full support.  With full support, he could do away with her.  Without it, his supporters would completely erode and he'd be ousted.  As is, he has enough to spark a civil war but NOT enough to win the war easily or quickly.

[Asylumer]

No offense to the replies on page 14, but you really should read the rest of the thread. We've gone over this stuff in detail and there's a few revelations that might interest you.



I might as well start having fun with this again though.



*ahem*

soteria wrote...



We have Jowan's testimony about what happened: Loghain appeared to him in person and gave him his instructions, including the order to poison Arl Eamon. The order was issued BEFORE the battle took place, meaning the whole thing was premeditated.

OBJECTION!



We have no proof that Jowan poisoned the Arl before battle beyond Ser Donall's testimony. I have presented evidence that Ser Donall's claim is preposterous in my original post.

Nowhere is it evident that Loghain could see the battle and decided it was hopeless. Never before the battle does he say that it was hopeless. If he thought so, he should have said so--but he doesn't. He approves the plan and moves forward

OBJECTION!



The original plan could have worked if everything had gone accordingly with the beacon being lit. The evidence that Loghain could see the battlefield comes from the yet discredited source of Wynne.

SandiKay0 wrote...



But the reason Loghain needs to die in my opinion is that I believe that he has been working on taking over the throne for sometime. Becuase he believes that no one but him can possibly save Ferelden. Becuase King Cailin is so not King Maric. And his daughter Anora is no Rowan or the Rebel Queen. It is left to him to save Ferelden. He believes that deep down inside. No one but him. Everyone else is not capable of winning becuase he sees himself as infallable.

OBJECTION!



This is a completely unsubstantiated claim. The court knows that Loghain held a deep affection for Maric and would do anything to protect his child if he didn't have a very good reason (in his mind) to do otherwise. He would not have betrayed Cailan intentionally, and his actions towards his daughter clearly show that he was not at the point where he'd begin killing his loved ones in the name of Ferelden.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



And yes, Loghian did wor with Howe and is partially to blame for the Cousland massacre. No story Howe could come up with could possibly excuse him or explain his actions. One does NOT massacre a whole noble family, down to the last woman and child, in their own home, in self-defence.

Even if they were the greatest traitors Ferelden ever seen, such an action would still be unanceptable. The king should be informed first, a inqury made.

OBJECTION!



Howe's lie does not necessarily have to involve the Couslands betraying Ferelden. Cailan's remark is one of disbelief, but Cailan's judgment is highly questionable itself.



Also, unless one of my most vocal detractors is lying to undermine his own opinion, Word of God supports me here. Read... page 9 was it?

Jaldecir wrote...



The evidence is not Wynne's suspicion, but Loghain's own confirmation about it during the dialogue with Wynne (which you quoted mid-way of your post). Right there, Loghain admitted that it was his idea that Uldred worked with the demons.

OBJECTION!



That was sarcasm, sir.

The main concern for me is that the Tower of Ishal was previously locked by the order of Loghain. And when it's opened ready for beacon lighting, suddenly it was overrun by darkspawn. Of course it can be pure coincidence as there's no hint whatsoever that Loghain worked together with darkspawns, but it does sound suspicious.

OBJECTION!



During a blight the Darkspawn are nothing more than a hivemind controlled horde with the singular purpose of destroying everything in their wake. Collusion between Loghain and the Darkspawn is highly unlikely.

The problem with that statement is that once Cailan died, Loghain did put himself as the regent, and then obviously tried to gain power and eliminated challengers. Had he not intending to betray Cailan, then he would have no need to poison Arl Eamon and whatnot. After all, there should be no problem if Eamon became the King if Loghain didn't intend to betray Cailan.

OBJECTION!



Why wouldn't he grab the reigns in a crisis of rampaging Darkspawn (even if they aren't a Blight) and, in his mind due to misguided proof, Orlesians? His actions here are similar to Bhelen's ruthless drive to silence opposition because it was threatening Orzammar's survival. How would this be out of character for Loghain?



You also have no basis to say there's no reason to poison Arl Eamon, even before the battle. We do not know how much of Cailan's resistance to Loghain was influenced by Eamon. Poisoning the Arl does NOT necessarily entail plans of regicide. One crime does not necessarily mean another is true.

To me, I still feel that Bioware made a mistake with the game's execution about how Loghain was portrayed. It was contradictory and we ended up with half-baked character. Point is, people who quickly jumped to conclusion would easily say that Loghain is bad and evil.

OBJECTION!



I gave my own scenario for what I see as the only plausible one given what we know. I think it gives a much better view into Loghain's thoughts and perfectly captures the ruthless character who has his own soft side.



Loghain revered Maric and in a way adopted Cailan as his nephew. He loved Anora. He may have been ruthless but I cannot see him killing either of them, and we know for a fact that he didn't kill one of them when it would have almost assuredly won the Civil War for him.



However, he did not trust an Orlesian-based organization which made him suspicious during his previous encounters. He could not believe there was a Blight. In his mind the late signal was proof that the Wardens were looking for some way to sabotage the army at Ostagar and cripple Ferelden. He feels there is no choice here, and doesn't risk saving the King, because he believes he will need to save every soldier he can for the coming battles. That is the closest I can see him getting to betraying Cailan.

jon 45 wrote...



Just a quick comment: Loghain does not say that Howe will pay. He says "Cailan told me of his promise. I am sure he has every intention of following through with it."



I love the bolded part as it shows Loghain being deliberately vague without having to lie to your face. A wonderful display of his more subtle side.

You guys should really read the thread

[The Capital Gaultier]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Why must Loghain die? He may have been a criminal, but there are more important things to worry about, like the Blight.

By the point where you get this choice, it takes all of ten seconds out of your Blight-fighting to end Loghain.  I guess you could skip a minute of sleep if it makes you feel better about ending the Blight.

And yes, the OP is riddled with errors of fact, but it's a pretty good defense.  Just not a fact-based approach.

Modifié par The Capital Gaultier, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:43 .

[Lughsan35]

1.We know that Cailan and Loghain fought often about the decisions surrounding this battle. Most of Loghain's complaints concerned how much Cailan trusted the Grey Wardens.

Prosecutions will also note that there was a prior disagreement about waiting on the Orlesians which the king had already Aquiesed on.

2. We know that Loghain did not believe there to be a Blight from David Gaider. It was the only definite part of his post in fact.

In point of fact he was grasping at straws. From the prologue novel he can see that Something decidely strange is going on in Darkspawn land.


3. The Lighting of the Beacon was delayed. It was not the PC's fault, but that's what occurred.

Yes only delayed.  He had his own men there, likely with orders to NOT LIGHT THE BEACON.  This would give him plausible deniability, and more blame laid on Caillan for being incompetant.


4. Loghain already had reason to distrust the Wardens, and in his paranoia believed them to have deliberately delayed the beacon's lighting. This is where he jumped to a false conclusion himself.
Again from the Prologue story you'd know he has little reason to distrust the Wardens, but every reason to be concerned about the  power of their legacy. 

5. When the beacon was lit, he surveyed the battlefield and felt it wasn't possible or worth sacrificing his men at that point. By now he was convinced that the Warden's had lured the king out here for a false Blight and that they were really a part of an Orlesian plot. He took the delayed tower beacon as proof of that, as he couldn't conceive that there would be another reason to not light the tower in time.

Yes he was mulling over how do I get out of this one I never intended to support the king in this mad play.
Yes yes too dire. Not worth risking. 

6. Believing an Orlesian invasion on the way, he made the decision to salvage all the troops he could, and called the retreat. He may have had some doubts about being able to save the King, but he was not willing to take that risk.
He believed the Orlesian threat was still there thanks to events with the Tower in the prologue story.  Their First enchanter almost had the coup'de tat complete.
7. He returned to the capital and took immediate measures against the Grey Wardens. He placed a bounty on them and stopped the Warden army from entering. He became Anora's regent and begun making plans for the Civil War that was soon to start.
There was no warden army.  There was you, the boy who would be king, and an advanced scout from the Orlesian branch of the grey wardens.  The Wardens had only recently been restored to legitimacy in Ferelden at all.
8. Loghain's recruitment drive angered many of the nobles, who began protesting against Loghain. There was also the old loyalty to Therin blood and they may have taken issue with the commoners who were "usurping the throne."
Maric was no more noble than anyone else.  He merely fit the profile. 

9. Loghain needs supporters. Howe is an opportunist who recognizes the opening, and gets in good with Loghain. He gets to be Arl of Denerim for his efforts.
Howe was working behind the scenes a lot on loghain's 'behalf' doing all sorts of nasty things to grab power he 'thought' was his. 
10. Loghain discovers Jowan, and recalls Isolde needed a tutor. He seizes upon this opportunity to capture Jowan and use him for his own purposes -- removing Arl Eamon, who he believed would be the most outspoken against him. This is a very ruthless thing to do, but Loghain could convince himself it was necessary... especially if Howe helped convince him. We don't know how much influence Howe had there though.
Intent was removal of a rival.   That it wasn't an outright murder was likely because as long as he's wasting away the more ambitious and outspoken brother the Bann Teagan couldn't make a serious bid for power himself.
11. Loghain learns of the PC's survival, and believes the PC may be an Orlesian agent. Howe convinces Loghain to hire assassins. We know he's involved there.
Which is nonsense for just about every origin there is...especially the human noble one.  Here he is merely cleaning up after Howe's incompetence at making sure the Highever nobility all died.
12. Loghain needs money badly. Either he did this alone, or with Howe's insistence. Howe is likely involved given that he is then the Arl of Denerim and dislikes the elves. We don't have enough proof to definitely say if Howe is involved though.
There is enough cirucumstantial evidence to make it so.  After all Howe claims the Alienage when the current Bann of that demense is locked within his own dungeon.  Curious how that works hmmm?
13. The Landsmeet. Loghain confronts the PC. He's still trying to convince himself that the PC is an Orlesian agent, though he probably realizes that the Blight is real by now, and has doubts. When the PC duels him, he gains a newfound respect for the young Warden, and realizes he may have been wrong about the PC. He is ready to accept his death for the mistakes he's made... but he never felt that he betrayed Cailan.
He knew he betrayed him and accepted his defeat as 'divine proof' as many old knights did. 

He had plotted and planned to get control of the throne as expidiently as possible. The most interesting question that was ignored in the storyline is why the nubile young queen and the super handsome young king had NO progeny of their own....

-------------------------------



Would anybody like to challenge the above? It is far more plausible than the "crazy Loghain" theory, given all that we know. Admittedly the Ser Donall story could've been a mistake on the teams part, because they did change around the story quite a bit and such a slip would be easy, but even if Loghain did poison Eamon before the battle it is at best circumstantial evidence pointing towards betrayal with no corroborating evidence to support it. In fact, the other evidence contradicts the idea that Loghain meant to kill Cailan at Ostagar. The view into Loghain's mind shows us that he cared deeply about Cailan, and even tried to not fault the lad for his own foolish actions by blaming the Wardens.
Sorry no blaming the Wardens is what the DLC for Warden's keep is all about.  In an earlier time.  Its easier to make a scapegoat of someone that's already done ya bad.

The prosecution rests.  Loghain is GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY.  Death to be sorted by beheading and splattering blood over his own infertile daughter.

[jon 45]

I am really not getting into lengthy discussions here or reading the entire thread (a lot of the discussion is going round in circles), Asylumer, but you seem to be enjoying yourself, so how about the charge: Loghain is aware of Howe's murder of Teyrn Cousland and his wife, but not only does he not try to bring him to justice, he rewards him with a number of titles. This, I might add, is a seperate issue from Loghain being in any way responsible for the murder in the first place.

[Asylumer]

jon 45 wrote...

Loghain is aware of Howe's murder of Teyrn Cousland and his wife, but not only does he not try to bring him to justice, he rewards him with a number of titles. This, I might add, is a seperate issue from Loghain being in any way responsible for the murder in the first place.

That fits into Loghain's ruthless personality. He's willing to ally with a scumbag like Howe to get a supporter he'll need in the war(s) to come.

If Loghain is subtle he'd bring the charges against Howe after he had no more need for him.

[jon 45]

Asylumer wrote...

jon 45 wrote...

Loghain is aware of Howe's murder of Teyrn Cousland and his wife, but not only does he not try to bring him to justice, he rewards him with a number of titles. This, I might add, is a seperate issue from Loghain being in any way responsible for the murder in the first place.

That fits into Loghain's ruthless personality. He's willing to ally with a scumbag like Howe to get a supporter he'll need in the war(s) to come.

If Loghain is subtle he'd bring the charges against Howe after he had no more need for him.

So you admit his guilt in this then?

[Asylumer]

jon 45 wrote...

So you admit his guilt in this then?

As I said, I believe Loghain is guilty of many things, but not of intentionally betraying Cailan at Ostagar.

[robertthebard]

Asylumer wrote...

You guys should really read the thread

You should really play the game.  Wynne is not positioned with Loghain.  She is with the King's forces.  As I pointed out in my initial post, if Loghain could see the battlefield from his ambush point, then the darkspawn could see him.  The whole point of an ambush is that the people you're ambushing can't see you.

Ser Donall was in Lothering when Loghain's troops passed through.  Why was he in Lothering?  Looking for the Urn of Sacred Ashes.  Why look for the Urn if it's not needed?  We have Jowan, Bann Teagan, the Knight that's actually in charge of the defence of Redcliffe and Isolde that Eamon has been sick/poisoned since before Cailin died.  We also have Connor in the Fade, while we wander from one incarnation of the Desire demon to the other, asking if we're the one that made his father ill.  Which is truly ironic, if you use Jowan in the Fade.

However, it's easy to see how Loghain could have so many followers post Ostagar; the gullibility seems to run right out of the game into people that play it, and refuse to accept even the "Word of God" that Loghain was indeed plotting against Cailin.  He was delusional in that even at the Landsmeet, he still insists that Orlais was the enemy, not the darkspawn.  You can even score a point against him at the Landsmeet by pointing that out.  I'm not one to deny people their delusions though, so feel free to ignore in game facts if you wish.  In reading the whole thread, countless times in various discussions, I have seen nothing presented that supports your initial post, other than a blind desire to be a follower.  Follow away.  You'll be sad to notice that if the PC does minimal footwork on the Landsmeet, Loghain is defeated there every time.  It's funny too, since the Landsmeet will accept the word of a City Elf, Dwarf or Dalish over Loghain.  Let alone the last known surviving Cousland.