1429 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thank Mr.Gaider!
That's how I interpretted it as well.

@ Robert
But that's after the Warden resists arrest and resists the decision of the landsmeet and resorts to force.
 
@ Eschilde, yes I see your point. It would have been illegal (and imprudent). But in principl,e it wasn't betraying the country as he wasn't doing this to gain power. He just thought that only he can save Ferelden, which isn't true.

Not if you win the Landsmeet it's not.  It's possible to do the Landsmeet w/out the big fight after all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

robertthebard wrote...
Not if you win the Landsmeet it's not.  It's possible to do the Landsmeet w/out the big fight after all.

Yes I know. I said the Warden could do this. And it will still be seen as ok, because he / she will win.

[dan107]

David Gaider wrote...

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions.

Great info! Answers a lot of the things I've been wondering about.

However, I'm still curious -- when exactly did Loghain make the decision to leave Cailan to die? I was always under the impression that Ostagar could've been won had Loghain charged when he was supposed to, but he just used it as an opportunity to get rid of Cailan. Is that not correct?

[robertthebard]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Not if you win the Landsmeet it's not.  It's possible to do the Landsmeet w/out the big fight after all.

Yes I know. I said the Warden could do this. And it will still be seen as ok, because he / she will win.

I hate losing, so I don't lose the Landsmeet.

[eschilde]

@robertthebard

There's also Cauthrien's attempt to arrest you at Howe's estate. If you don't resist arrest there, jailbreak isn't exactly a positive action, either.

But in any case, whichever way the Landsmeet goes, the losing party will attempt to shed blood, which, I would guess, is probably a no-no.



Regardless, if anyone is arguing that kind of point, the GWs' actions in Fereldan aren't that much better than Loghain's. The GWs are probably actively supporting the civil war (if you take that Chantry board quest and kill Loghain's men in Lothering and Orzammar, not to mention attempting to put Alistair on the throne and killing Howe) just by attempting to go to Eamon for help. They have to, to get support to fight the Blight.



The GWs, Sophia Dryden, and Loghain are all pretty much on the same level here. They have ideas about what direction Fereldan should go and who should be in charge to take them on that path. In order to get what they need done, they need someone on their side on the throne, which no one has a secure claim to at the moment, which can (and does) result in some ugliness.

[KnightofPhoenix]

robertthebard wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Not if you win the Landsmeet it's not.  It's possible to do the Landsmeet w/out the big fight after all.

Yes I know. I said the Warden could do this. And it will still be seen as ok, because he / she will win.

I hate losing, so I don't lose the Landsmeet.

Yea me neither, I never tried losing. Just read about it. It's hard not to win the landsmeet.  

[apantoliani]

Interesting and well written post.



I look at it like this; we both (Loghain and the PC) played 'the game' and Loghain lost in the end. After that, it doesn't really matter who was right in the end, because the winners write the history books.

[Asylumer]

David Gaider wrote...

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me for offering some input on something with incomplete knowledge, but my impression is that there is a question about Loghain's intentions prior to Ostagar? If so, I can shed some light on what my thoughts regarding it are. You can take them for what it's worth -- if there's no evidence of something in the game it's debateable whether that can be taken as truth, after all.

...

Hope that makes sense, although I understand the topic of conversation here has gone in a lot of different directions.

Heck, I'm just happy that I could get a word from one of the writers

I suppose I'll have to wait for the DLC and expansions  before I can claim vindication or be proven wrong about Loghain's betrayal. Assuming those would have the evidence I need to seal or strengthen my case, of course.

Thanks for the reply, David!

[Ulicus]

Sarethus wrote...

Wrong here, Majorly. Duncan and the other wardens did not sense the archdemon near by and they were certainly not hoping to destroy the archdemon there. While the King may have thought of this as a final battle of sorts, Duncan and the wardens knew it would be just one of many to come and the full quote is "Our numbers in Ferelden are too few. We must do what we can and look to Teyrn Loghain to make up the difference."  Duncan was refering about the number of troops from Loghain's army not about Loghain's strategy.

Fair point regarding the quote. I tend to get hung up on Duncan saying: "The Blight must be ended, here and now" and Cailan's "The Blight ends here" line.

Still, it's not like Duncan laughs you out of the house when you ask: "What if the Archdemon appears?" he takes the question seriously and tells both you and Alistair "no heroics." Which led me to believe it was certainly a possibility.

Sarethus wrote...
They couldn't have ended the blight because the Arch demon wasn't present

That it didn't show up doesn't mean it wouldn't have shown up had the fighting not gone on for longer, as it would have done if Loghain charged his men.

Sarethus wrote...
and Loghain's ability to judge the battle field conditions is suspect as if he could do that then a beacon would not be needed.

Well, yeah. I'm under the impression the beacon just existed to give him an excuse to keep his own men away from the fighting.  Then he can sound the retreat and save as many people as he could from what he percieved to be the King's folly. He couldn't see the battle from there, sure, but he must have had an idea of the scale of it from the very beginning.

Edit: Having just gone back to reread the thread a bit and seeing what Gaider had to say, it looks like he wasn't 100% committed to walking away from the very beginning of that battle. Still... he knew that option was on the table and wanted it on the table.

Ulicus wrote...
Loghain says "You risk too much, Cailan! The darkspawn horde is too dangerous for you to be playing hero on the front lines." and then Cailan brings up waiting for the Orlesians at the very start. The line you quoted was after Cailan praised the Grey Warden recruit for surviving.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up.

Sarethus wrote...
That would be illogical. The plan that was setup is a classic hammer & anvil plan and it works. Leaving would have allowed the Darkspawn further access to the Fereldan, whereas stopping them at Ostagar prevents towns like Lothering from being destroyed.

But Loghain does leave. If he really cared about holding Ostagar, he'd have presumably fought in the battle rather than setting up a trap for the Grey Wardens, as you believe. Again, Loghain doesn't think this is a Blight. He thinks it's an incursion. If they gain a little more ground while he unites the rest of Ferelden under his banner (which he doesn't think will take too long) it's not an insurmountable problem. He's not got "save everyone" on his mind, nor is he thinking the darkspawn will get out of control.

I'm guessing he thought, "Head back to Denerim, get all Ferelden's forces united, march down and stomp the darkspawn. Sorted."

Sarethus wrote...
Actually he thinks they are Orlesian tools as evidenced during the landsmeet when he spouts off accusations about us helping Orlais.

That's quite a while after Ostagar, at which point he's probably justified his own actions to himself over and over again. And he probably is worried that the Grey Wardens will want Orlesian troops coming in, especially now there's only three of them.

Maybe it was all a plot to get the Grey Wardens out of the picture. It doesn't work for me, but if it does for others, that's gravy. I look forward to RtO with baited breath.

Modifié par Ulicus, 11 janvier 2010 - 05:21 .

[SandiKay0]

Well at least my theory in Loghain believing he was the only one who could save Ferelden stood up!

[David Gaider]

AndreaDraco wrote...
But what about the poisoning of Arl Eamon through Jowan? Wasn't this decided and accomplished before Ostagar?

Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.

And, while we're at it, I'm completely wrong in thinking that Loghain and - especially - Uldred had a say in the Tower of Ishal being swamped by darkspwan? I don't why, but it always strikes me as odd that Uldred proposed to use the mages for light the beacon and that the beacon was the signal Loghain was waiting to go away.

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

[David Gaider]

dan107 wrote...
However, I'm still curious -- when exactly did Loghain make the decision to leave Cailan to die? I was always under the impression that Ostagar could've been won had Loghain charged when he was supposed to, but he just used it as an opportunity to get rid of Cailan. Is that not correct?

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

[Addai]

I haven't read 18 pages, but will just say that in Loghain's favor he is very encouraging to you in Ostagar if you are a female Warden.

[AndreaDraco]

David Gaider wrote...
Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

Well, they got really lucky, no doubt

Thanks fro clarifying David!

[Asylumer]

David Gaider wrote...

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure.

I only suspected that the poison may not have been meant to kill (given how long Eamon remains sick yet doesn't die), but thanks for confirming.

Does that mean the demon lied to Connor about keeping Eamon alive?

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

Hmm.. so Loghain was prepared to ditch Cailan but didn't necessarily want to? What was Loghain looking for to decide on that?

[Ulicus]

David: I know you're not presenting every opinion you have as fact, but what you've said more-or-less clears up every query I had about Loghain, Ostagar and his plotting beforehand. Cheers.

Addai67 wrote...

I haven't read 18 pages, but will just say that in Loghain's favor he is very encouraging to you in Ostagar if you are a female Warden.

Yeah, I liked that touch. That, along with "The fate of your order rests in [Cailan's] hands" makes it hard for me to believe he had some premeditated plot to destroy the Grey Wardens.

[SalvoDK]

Herr Uhl wrote...

SalvoDK wrote...

You left out Bewick (i think his name was) the Elf in Redcliff who confirms he's working for Loghain and that he did poison the Arl, but I think u have most of the facts there.

Bewick did not poison the arl, he was there to see if anything happened and then report.

I didn't say that Bewick poisned the Arl, I said that Bewick confirms Loghain did it... and yes Jowan is the one who ACTUALLY did the deed but Bewick confirms that it was on Loghain's order.

... Yes i realise the thread has moved beyond this but please read what I write, yes i realise it could have been a little clearer but the sentance structure is obvious enough.

[David Gaider]

Asylumer wrote...
Does that mean the demon lied to Connor about keeping Eamon alive?

Well, Eamon didn't die did he?

Hmm.. so Loghain was prepared to ditch Cailan but didn't necessarily want to? What was Loghain looking for to decide on that?

He was hoping that Cailan would see reason. He didn't expect him to, but was hoping he would.

[AndreaDraco]

Asylumer wrote...

Hmm.. so Loghain was prepared to ditch Cailan but didn't necessarily want to? What was Loghain looking for to decide on that?

Interesting question! I'd like to know the answer for sure

Anyway, I was reading back the older posts from David and now I definitely want to know more about Howe. I really hope that Awakening will have some Howe-related characters, since Amaranthine was his arling (maybe his wife? Or his daugther?). He's such a poisonous snake! And he's voiced by the awesome beyond awesome Tim Curry!

[bas273]

David Gaider wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
But what about the poisoning of Arl Eamon through Jowan? Wasn't this decided and accomplished before Ostagar?

Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.

And, while we're at it, I'm completely wrong in thinking that Loghain and - especially - Uldred had a say in the Tower of Ishal being swamped by darkspwan? I don't why, but it always strikes me as odd that Uldred proposed to use the mages for light the beacon and that the beacon was the signal Loghain was waiting to go away.

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

Either Loghain or Uldred? If that's the case then why does Loghain reject Uldred's offer? When Uldred says "I could light the beacon" Loghain's answer is clear: "The Grey Wardens shall light the beacon". Loghain finally "surrenders" and no longer tries to convince Cailan.
Or perhaps Loghain feared that Uldred would be blamed if the beacon wasn't lit and he still had some plans for him (Circle Tower).

It is possible that Loghain never wanted Arl Eamon to die from the poison. Perhaps he had a cure to revive him as soon as Ferelden was united (it seems unlikely that Loghain would search for the Urn of Sacred Ashes to save Arl Eamon ).

David Gaider wrote...
The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement.
Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy.
I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his
strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind,
Loghain still wasn't certain that
he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley
could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his
belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted
perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly
the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had
anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment
Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he
prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through
with it until right then.

I wonder how Loghain would know that the darkspawn forces were getting stronger. He doesn't believe this is a true Blight and without an Archdemon it seems unlikely that this army is going to be bigger than the previous armies that were defeated at Ostagar. Duncan is the only one who has 'seen' the Archdemon and Loghain doesn't trust the Wardens.
I don't think he already knew that this army was going to be bigger. But perhaps I'm wrong :innocent:.

[Xandurpein]

David Gaider wrote...

The decision, I think, was made at the moment Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through with it until right then.

It is very graceful of you to stick your head into the hornets nest and answer some of our questions, especially as you risk saying things contrary to someones pet theory. I do have a question I'm still wondering about. I may be looking to deeply into the military ins and outs, but I wonder if Loghain actually saw the battlefield when he looked for the beacon? Did he know know how the battle was going? Or did he just assume that the battle would be lost based on how late the Beacon was.

[robertthebard]

bas273 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...
But what about the poisoning of Arl Eamon through Jowan? Wasn't this decided and accomplished before Ostagar?

Yes, but this wasn't done in preparation for Ostagar. This was done in anticipation that Loghain and Cailan would have a showdown, and Arl Eamon would always solidly be in Cailan's camp. Like I said, Loghain is the sort of man that will ensure his enemies are defeated before they're engaged.

I know this isn't spelled out, but Eamon was never supposed to actually die from the poison. It would keep him sick for a long time -- certainly long enough for Isolde to try all their options and send out knights looking for remedies -- and then, once the confrontation with Cailan was done, Eamon could be given the cure. The elf was sent to Redcliffe to keep an eye on things and watch for news of Eamon getting worse, and if that happened then Loghain could send the cure immediately. Or, at least, that was the intention. If Eamon died in the name of keeping Ferelden safe from Orlais, Loghain wouldn't shed too many tears over it.

And, while we're at it, I'm completely wrong in thinking that Loghain and - especially - Uldred had a say in the Tower of Ishal being swamped by darkspwan? I don't why, but it always strikes me as odd that Uldred proposed to use the mages for light the beacon and that the beacon was the signal Loghain was waiting to go away.

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

Either Loghain or Uldred? If that's the case then why does Loghain reject Uldred's offer? When Uldred says "I could light the beacon" Loghain's answer is clear: "The Grey Wardens shall light the beacon". Loghain finally "surrenders" and no longer tries to convince Cailan.
Or perhaps Loghain feared that Uldred would be blamed if the beacon wasn't lit and he still had some plans for him (Circle Tower).

It is possible that Loghain never wanted Arl Eamon to die from the poison. Perhaps he had a cure to revive him as soon as Ferelden was united (it seems unlikely that Loghain would search for the Urn of Sacred Ashes to save Arl Eamon ).

David Gaider wrote...
The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement.
Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy.
I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his
strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind,
Loghain still wasn't certain that
he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley
could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his
belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted
perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly
the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had
anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment
Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he
prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through
with it until right then.

I wonder how Loghain would know that the darkspawn forces were getting stronger. He doesn't believe this is a true Blight and without an Archdemon it seems unlikely that this army is going to be bigger than the previous armies that were defeated at Ostagar. Duncan is the only one who has 'seen' the Archdemon and Loghain doesn't trust the Wardens.
I don't think he already knew that this army was going to be bigger. But perhaps I'm wrong :innocent:.

The Chantry lady shuts down Uldred, and Loghain just goes on like it didn't happen to avoid confrontations with both the Chantry and Cailin.  In regard to the army size, that's why they have scouts.

[eschilde]

bas273 wrote...

I wonder how Loghain would know that the darkspawn forces were getting stronger. He doesn't believe this is a true Blight and without an Archdemon it seems unlikely that this army is going to be bigger than the previous armies that were defeated at Ostagar. Duncan is the only one who has 'seen' the Archdemon and Loghain doesn't trust the Wardens.
I don't think he already knew that this army was going to be bigger. But perhaps I'm wrong :innocent:.

DG probably has an actual reason for this, but the numbers don't lie. There's soldiers in Ostagar near the archery range who have this conversation, "We've won every battle, but there's more of them each time." But just because the numbers of the horde improve doesn't necessarily mean there is a blight, since the Archdemon hasn't been sighted. In theory it could just be a very large horde. Even if Loghain doesn't think it's a blight, he does know that the horde is getting bigger.

Edit: Yeah, as robertthebard says, they do have scouts. But I don't think that Loghain had an accurate estimate of the size of the horde that attacks at the beginning of this battle, if I'm interpreting what DG says correctly.

Modifié par eschilde, 11 janvier 2010 - 06:45 .

[Tirigon]

@ David Gaider: Thx for the information. Just for interest, did you write the story alone or with a team? I always wondered that.

@ all: Even if Loghain did NOT plan to betray Cailan, his course of action wasn´t right. He should have said: THIS BATTLE IS TOO MUCH RISK. WE RETREAT. PERIOD. He should not have allowed Caillan and the Wardens to be butchered.

In addition, nothing excuses his further actions. I could forgive him (both from personal view and from roleplaying as Warden) to retreat if I see that he tried to save his men - but I can´t excuse his selling elves as slaves, his MULTIPLE attempts to kill me and Alistair, his alliance with Arl Howe (especially after playing as Human Noble), the fact that he fought a war against the bannorn and the fact that he left villages such as Lothering unprotected.

Edit: And when he and Howe plan to kill Anora that´s it. (I hate Anora and wish you could kill her, but still...). I simply CAN´T see any morale or anything worth of respect in a man who is ready to kill his own daughter to gain an advantage in politics.

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 janvier 2010 - 06:55 .

[T1l]

Loghains face bears a distinct smirk as he turns away from Calin at Ostagar.



If all of what David says is to be taken as canon (and it should, as Davids word is the IP) then I assume what we saw of Loghain in-game is severe misrepresentation. Dragon Age: Origins clearly hasn't done his character justice.