1429 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Tirigon wrote...

eschilde wrote...

@Tirigon
Read the next DG post.

For the F*cking last time: The fact that he decided to retreat only there does NOT make it less of a treachery. Besides, David says "He prepared for the possibility". So he DID consider to betray Cailan.


Off topic: How do you add links like this one?

Up in the corner of each post is a Link button, copy the shortcut.  Then it's just like any other link, type [ url=paste shortcut here ] type words [ /url]  Hope that works...

Yep, it did, don't put any spaces in after the [  I did that so it wouldn't go to code.

Modifié par robertthebard, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:05 .

[eschilde]

@Trigon
(url= )text(/url) with [] instead
Actually, no, read the post. DG says that he was not intending to have Cailan killed, and that he was preparing for all possible scenarios. Did he plan to undercut Cailan's power? Yes. Did he plan to have all his pieces in place to confront Cailan? Yes. Did he plan to have Cailan offed? No.
In other words: Loghain did not plan Ostagar with the intent of getting rid of the Wardens and Cailan. That was not the purpose of the battle, though if the possibility of it happening arose, he would go with it.

Edit: mutter, I can never spell Cailan's name right.

Modifié par eschilde, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:07 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Tirigon wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
In all fairness, we have no idea how late we were lighting the beacon.  There is every possibility that Cailin would have still died on the field, even had Loghain charged.  Regarding the darkspawn in the tower, he has already addressed that here.

Thanks for the link. So I was wrong that he let them in, but he DID plan to prevent the beacon from being lit.

So it´s settled, he planned a treachery.

He planned, as any good leader does, for the worst. That is what they ALL do. Despite your childish accusations, you cannot condem Loghain for the fact he choose not to lose hundreds, perhaps thousands of his men to try and save the king. Nor can you condem him for the fact he thought Cailan was a complete fool and was preparing to get rid of him, and the fact is Cailan was so bad as a ruler I believe Rowan would have punched him right into the stone age.

You know what, continue to judge Loghain on the level of a simple person who comited a few crimes. Cause it is so like the real world where every single leader, in history as we know it, is responsible for the deaths, or harsh living conditions of thousands upon thousands of people.

Lastly I will add this. If you honestly think he deserves death, then answer this, and bull**** asside.

Would you kill a person in REALITY like Loghain? Would you raise your own sword or let Alistair do it, in front of HIS DAUGHTER?! How the bloody hell can people say that Loghain is a criminal when they do such a thing as killing a person in cold blood in front of their child, many even laughed or took joy in killing him.

It makes me sick. As a person who, until 20 years ago, lived under a dictator, I can safely say I would never do such a thing, not even to that dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of my countrymen. Perhaps I take it too seriously, but its an RPG for a reason.

[SuperMaoriFulla]

David Gaider wrote...
He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

This for me sums up Loghain. Rightly, or wrongly, Loghain will do whatever it takes to ensure the security and strength of Ferelden. Of course, the decisions Loghain makes, and the consequences they have, aren't always palatable.

[Tirigon]

eschilde wrote...

@Trigon
(url= )text(/url) with [] instead
Actually, no, read the post. DG says that he was not intending to have Cailan killed, and that he was preparing for all possible scenarios. Did he plan to undercut Cailan's power? Yes. Did he plan to have all his pieces in place to confront Cailan? Yes. Did he plan to have Cailin offed? No.
In other words: Loghain did not plan Ostagar with the intent of getting rid of the Wardens and Cailin. That was not the purpose of the battle, though if the possibility of it happening arose, he would go with it.

I honestly fail to see your point.

Let´s imagine you go out with a girl. You are alone with her in a dark corner and suddenly decide to kill her. You did not plan to do so when you went out with her.
Does this mean you are NOT a murderer?
I doubt it. Legally not, anyways.

Same here. So Loghain did not plan to abandon Cailan, ok (Though even you admit he wasn´t actually sorry about that outcome). But he did it.
I´m not judging his plans, I´m judging his actions. And his action was definitely and undebatable his retreat leading to Cailan´s death.

[Asylumer]

I hope I didn't tick off DG with my last question. I just wanted a clarification of what happened between The Mage Origin and your arrival at Ostagar.

[robertthebard]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
In all fairness, we have no idea how late we were lighting the beacon.  There is every possibility that Cailin would have still died on the field, even had Loghain charged.  Regarding the darkspawn in the tower, he has already addressed that here.

Thanks for the link. So I was wrong that he let them in, but he DID plan to prevent the beacon from being lit.

So it´s settled, he planned a treachery.

He planned, as any good leader does, for the worst. That is what they ALL do. Despite your childish accusations, you cannot condem Loghain for the fact he choose not to lose hundreds, perhaps thousands of his men to try and save the king. Nor can you condem him for the fact he thought Cailan was a complete fool and was preparing to get rid of him, and the fact is Cailan was so bad as a ruler I believe Rowan would have punched him right into the stone age.

You know what, continue to judge Loghain on the level of a simple person who comited a few crimes. Cause it is so like the real world where every single leader, in history as we know it, is responsible for the deaths, or harsh living conditions of thousands upon thousands of people.

Lastly I will add this. If you honestly think he deserves death, then answer this, and bull**** asside.

Would you kill a person in REALITY like Loghain? Would you raise your own sword or let Alistair do it, in front of HIS DAUGHTER?! How the bloody hell can people say that Loghain is a criminal when they do such a thing as killing a person in cold blood in front of their child, many even laughed or took joy in killing him.

It makes me sick. As a person who, until 20 years ago, lived under a dictator, I can safely say I would never do such a thing, not even to that dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of my countrymen. Perhaps I take it too seriously, but its an RPG for a reason.

It is an RPG, and that means we can come as we aren't, if we want to.  That's what Role Play means.  However, I will answer your question.  Yes, I would kill him, if I felt it warranted his death, and I would do the deed myself.  My State has the death penalty, and we do use it.  Killing him with a sword, or hanging him are not very different.  The end result is still dead.

[Ulicus]

Tirigon wrote...

So, basically, you are saying that Loghain is not a traitor, but a terrible coward who rather let´s thousands die than to disagree with the king openly and risk punishment.

No. Basically, you're putting words in my mouth. Loghain is, ultimately, a traitor. That he didn't want to kill Cailan is irrelevant to this fact. He betrayed his liege. This is irrefutable. Regardless of his reasons, it's what he did.

If you don't understand why Loghain might have thought being relieved of his command would be a Very Bad Thing and result in an even greater catastrophe at Ostagar, then I can't help you.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Lastly I will add this. If you honestly think he deserves death, then answer this, and bull**** asside.

Would you kill a person in REALITY like Loghain? Would you raise your own sword or let Alistair do it, in front of HIS DAUGHTER?! How the bloody hell can people say that Loghain is a criminal when they do such a thing as killing a person in cold blood in front of their child, many even laughed or took joy in killing him.

It makes me sick. As a person who, until 20 years ago, lived under a dictator, I can safely say I would never do such a thing, not even to that dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of my countrymen. Perhaps I take it too seriously, but its an RPG for a reason.

Yes. Certain people simply deserve to die. One has to take responibility for his actions. Loghain decided to enslave people, to kill innocents, to try to kill you more than once.
For that, he deserves death.
I can´t understand how you could let someone like that live. If you experienced suppression on your own, I understand it only even less.

I would not see it as fun, though. It´s justice. If you simply like killing people you are truly not better than him.

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:17 .

[eschilde]

@Tirigon

The difference is intent. Intent is the difference between a trial for the count of murder and the count of manslaughter. To you, it may not matter, but to some people it does.

Your scenario with the girl has two plausible reasons: 1) self defense and 2) insanity. Either one affects what kind of sentencing as well as what count of crime you're tried on. Otherwise, there is the likelihood that you're lying and you meant to kill the girl.

That scenario would be more applicable if you used a scenario such as: You ran over a girl with your car. Did you mean to run over the girl, were you drunk, or did you simply not see her? All of those have different repercussions.

[Tirigon]

eschilde wrote...

@Tirigon
The difference is intent. Intent is the difference between a trial for the count of murder and the count of manslaughter. To you, it may not matter, but to some people it does.

In Germany, intent does NOT mean a difference, legally.
It used to in earlier times, but today it does NOT anymore.

[eschilde]

@Tirigon

I'm not from Germany, I'm from the United States. I am unfamiliar with German law, but I would find it surprising that you would get the same sentence for accidentally running over a person as you would for killing them in self defense or murdering them in cold blood.

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

Yes. Certain people simply deserve to die. One has to take responibility for his actions. Loghain decided to enslave people, to kill innocents, to try to kill you more than once. I can´t understand how you could let someone like that live. If you experienced suppression on your own, I understand it only even less.

I would not see it as fun, though. It´s justice. If you simply like killing people you are truly not better than him.

Cultural context does matter. Just about every human being alive prior to the age of enlightenment deserves to die by your definition, as few seriously questioned slavery before that, at least as long as the slaves where of a different race/nationality. It is like saying Alistair becomes an evil tyrant who deserve to die when made King, because he doesn't turn Ferelden into a representative democracy, and instead deprive everyone except the nobles of their rights.

/Edit. I'm not saying I approve of what Loghain does in the alienage, far from. I'm not even gonna try to claim it was "necessary". It was a ruthless and wrongful deed, but it's not possible in my mind, to judge him by our twentyfirst century standards on this.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:25 .

[robertthebard]

Xandurpein wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Yes. Certain people simply deserve to die. One has to take responibility for his actions. Loghain decided to enslave people, to kill innocents, to try to kill you more than once. I can´t understand how you could let someone like that live. If you experienced suppression on your own, I understand it only even less.

I would not see it as fun, though. It´s justice. If you simply like killing people you are truly not better than him.

Cultural context does matter. Just about every human being alive prior to the age of enlightenment deserves to die by your definition, as few seriously questioned slavery before that, at least as long as the slaves where of a different race/nationality. It is like saying Alistair becomes an evil tyrant who deserve to die when made King, because he doesn't turn Ferelden into a representative democracy, and instead deprive everyone except the nobles of their rights.

Bah, he doesn't live long enough to do any of that, I have a friend in the Crows, you see...

[ReubenLiew]

Tirigon wrote...

eschilde wrote...

@Tirigon
The difference is intent. Intent is the difference between a trial for the count of murder and the count of manslaughter. To you, it may not matter, but to some people it does.

In Germany, intent does NOT mean a difference, legally.
It used to in earlier times, but today it does NOT anymore.

Shenanigans.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

eschilde wrote...

@Tirigon
The difference is intent. Intent is the difference between a trial for the count of murder and the count of manslaughter. To you, it may not matter, but to some people it does.

In Germany, intent does NOT mean a difference, legally.
It used to in earlier times, but today it does NOT anymore.

Shenanigans.

And not to mention Snaginanehs

[eschilde]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

eschilde wrote...

@Tirigon
The difference is intent. Intent is the difference between a trial for the count of murder and the count of manslaughter. To you, it may not matter, but to some people it does.

In Germany, intent does NOT mean a difference, legally.
It used to in earlier times, but today it does NOT anymore.

Shenanigans.

I sure hope so.. might have to cross Germany off of the list of countries I'd like to visit. For all I know getting a speeding ticket there is the same as reckless endangerment.

[ReubenLiew]

I don't think Tirigon is nearly old enough to actually be intimate with the ins and outs of german laws on murder.

[Xandurpein]

robertthebard wrote...
Bah, he doesn't live long enough to do any of that, I have a friend in the Crows, you see...

The quote of course does not apply to YOUR enlightened rule...

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:27 .

[eschilde]

@ReubenLiew

That or she's secretly a sociopathic serial killer who gave very unconvincing testimony! I like my theory better.

[robertthebard]

Xandurpein wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Bah, he doesn't live long enough to do any of that, I have a friend in the Crows, you see...

The quote of course does not apply to YOUR enlightened rule of course...

I don't have an enlightened rule, but I do have the friend in the Crows if anyone questions it...

[Klystron]

So why does Loghain declare the GWs traitors and put a bounty on them, and allow Howe to send elite assassins when he finds out 2 wardens survived?

Even if he doesn't think this is a true blight, he knows the darkspawn have overrun Ostagar and Lothering...

[CBGB]

]David Gaider wrote...
He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

That's an error in reasoning as well as judgement.

David Gaider's statement would make sense if Loghain refused to join Cailan in battle, protesting a strategy he felt was doomed (though Duncan did not). If Cailan still marched ahead, his death would then be his own. 

Instead, Loghain pretended to submit to Cailan, then abandoned him and concealed his choice to seize power. He trusted no one else to share his judgement, not Loghain, not Duncan, not the nobles, not the people of Ferelden. He, and only he, would decide the correct course, even under the cloak of deceit.

If that's not "allowing one man to be more important than the Kingdom," I don't know what is, but I do know that Loghain turned his back on more than King Cailan.

[Xandurpein]

robertthebard wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
Bah, he doesn't live long enough to do any of that, I have a friend in the Crows, you see...

The quote of course does not apply to YOUR enlightened rule of course...

I don't have an enlightened rule, but I do have the friend in the Crows if anyone questions it...

There is an Italian proverb that goes something like "If you are rich, you are beautiful and can usually sing", so in that spirit I am sure your rule would be very enlightened.

[Costin_Razvan]

Tirigon wrote...
I can´t understand how you could let someone like that live. If you experienced suppression on your own, I understand it only even less.

I would not see it as fun, though. It´s justice. If you simply like killing people you are truly not better than him.

A crime is to be paid with another crime? How charming. Come back and tell me what you think AFTER you saw people die on a battlefield.