1429 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

@Klystron

The darkspawn take awhile to actually overrun Lothering (generally speaking you have to complete a main quest before that happens.) The GWs are likely declared traitors to ensure that the Orlesian reinforcements aren't allowed in as well as to provide a convenient scapegoat for the huge mess that Ostagar turned into. He does this before he even knows that there are still GWs in Fereldan alive, if the second Denerim cut scene is any indication. By the time he finds this out, letting Howe send assassins is to ensure that they don't give him trouble, which Howe guess (accurately) that they would try to, especially since he has a potential Bannorn rebellion brewing.

[ReubenLiew]

Or, that entire scene was probably just some crazy puppet play re-enacted by Alistair.

Don't any of you find it weird that you can suddenly kknow what's up in their castle for no reason?

[KnightofPhoenix]

eschilde wrote...

@ReubenLiew
That or she's secretly a sociopathic serial killer who gave very unconvincing testimony! I like my theory better.

I think it's a he.
And yes, the idea that intent does not matter in any legal system is complete BS. Every system that claims to be under the rule of law judges people with basically 3 things: the act, the damage, the causal effect (intent). The last one, intent, is the most important variable in determining who is guilty and who is not, or the penatly that he or she deserves. 

Loghain did cause alot of damage (Cailan was worse). But the act itself was based on military / strategic consideration. And the intent / motivation was the love he had for Ferelden. All of this in mind, I do not feel that Loghain deserves death. Turning him into a Grey Warden (50% chance of dying) is the perfect choice vis a vis Loghain.  

[RangerSG]

StaticSilence wrote...

My biggest beef with The Landsmeet is that there was no option for trial, for imprisonment.. for any legal justice at all. Just spare his life, or execution. I thought that was pretty weak. It was too black and white... to simplistic.... too bioshock.  (Bioware, come on, you are better than 2K.)

The slavery he admitted to.  That would be enough to at least lock him up.

Not when you're talking about Medeival justice. You don't just "lock up" someone who has already helped orchestrate a civil war. He's a threat to the throne. So one way or the other, he has to be brought to heel. Either make him submit to your authority through the Joining, or execute him. Alive in a cell he's still able to plot and scheme and incite.

Part of the problem with these threads is they live in the world of modern jurisprudence. And thus much of it is entirely anachronistic for the actual situation.

[Costin_Razvan]

In medieval times no leader would have killed Loghain, when he can make him submit to him.

[melkathi]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Lastly I will add this. If you honestly think he deserves death, then answer this, and bull**** asside.

Would you kill a person in REALITY like Loghain? Would you raise your own sword or let Alistair do it, in front of HIS DAUGHTER?! How the bloody hell can people say that Loghain is a criminal when they do such a thing as killing a person in cold blood in front of their child, many even laughed or took joy in killing him.

It makes me sick. As a person who, until 20 years ago, lived under a dictator, I can safely say I would never do such a thing, not even to that dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of my countrymen. Perhaps I take it too seriously, but its an RPG for a reason.

You see, I agree with you I think.
I sometimes step away for a moment and wonder about the ease with which we pass death sentences in computer games. From executing Loghain or letting him live to the sidequests were killing gives more xp than talking your way out.
People take the moral high ground from the safety of their keyboard. They strike down with righteous fury those that oppose them. And they don't just see it as roleplaying, they feel justified.
But the other side in this argument does the same. Justifying everything with speeches about sacrifice or even worse, the thing that made me sick: the city elves' weakness ment they deserved to be sold as slaves. They are sinking to even lower lows from the same safe position.
The Loghain haters who choose to be judge, jury and executioner show the normal outrage of the mob and demand their pound of flesh, just as they would do in real life, if and only if the decission wasn't theirs.
But with the same ease the other side tries to not only justify but also make acceptable and right the war crimes.
And that is what worries me even more.
I do not think I could execute a man in cold blood. But I am equally terrified of forcing others to sacrifice them for a greater good I have decided on.
Luckily, those are situations most of us of the internet generation are extremely unlikely to find ourselves in.

And I'll refrain from talking about historical figures and their crimes and how they made them "great" - that would only lead to Godwin's Law comming into effect in this thread

Modifié par melkathi, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:40 .

[eschilde]

@KnightofPhoenix
Okay, I admit it, I assume people are the genders of their avatars :S
To tell you the truth, I think Loghain's dying for his crimes is a perfectly justifiable course of action. But so is letting him into the Grey Wardens. The reality is, despite good intentions, some crimes are not justifiable, and Loghain's brought Fereldan to the brink of civil war at a time when it's threatened by a Blight. If you didn't win the Landsmeet, there's very little doubt it would have been off with your head.

@ReubenLiew
Morrigan has a crystal ball? A widescreen high def one?

Modifié par eschilde, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:41 .

[Klystron]

eschilde wrote...

@Klystron
The darkspawn take awhile to actually overrun Lothering (generally speaking you have to complete a main quest before that happens.) The GWs are likely declared traitors to ensure that the Orlesian reinforcements aren't allowed in as well as to provide a convenient scapegoat for the huge mess that Ostagar turned into. He does this before he even knows that there are still GWs in Fereldan alive, if the second Denerim cut scene is any indication. By the time he finds this out, letting Howe send assassins is to ensure that they don't give him trouble, which Howe guess (accurately) that they would try to, especially since he has a potential Bannorn rebellion brewing.

Makes sense.
One other thing, though -- in the tavern in Lothering, I think Loghain's men say they had been asking about the PC specifically (iirc).  Maybe it's BS on their part?

[ReubenLiew]

And that is why we're playing a game and not running around with plate armor and stuff!

We LIKE reigning down white hot furious smiting on the unrighteous and idiots that dare stand in our wayish.

[ReubenLiew]

eschilde wrote...

@KnightofPhoenix
Okay, I admit it, I assume people are the genders of their avatars :S
To tell you the truth, I think Loghain's dying for his crimes is a perfectly justifiable course of action. But so is letting him into the Grey Wardens. The reality is, despite good intentions, some crimes are not justifiable, and Loghain's brought Fereldan to the brink of civil war at a time when it's threatened by a Blight. If you didn't win the Landsmeet, there's very little doubt it would have been off with your head.

@ReubenLiew
Morrigan has a crystal ball? A widescreen high def one?

That would be silly!
Signal's a **** in the medieval ages, no way she's get it that clear.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In medieval times no leader would have killed Loghain, when he can make him submit to him.

That's what Sten says.
Medieval Monarchs were not bloodthirsty tyrants who just kill everyone around them (a la Stalin or other "modern" totalitarians). When you wield to the King, you usually recieved mercy. Add the fact that Loghain is a national symbol and no true leader would execute him, when he had the chance to have him as a serving subject.  

[eschilde]

@Klystron

Well, the beacon at the Tower of Ishal was lit, so Loghain knew the GWs made it that far. Considering that he's a contingency kind of guy, it's probably something he had them do just in case. (And guess what, he was right!)

[eschilde]

@ReubenLiew

!@#$ I knew that guy who sold it to us was full of **** never trust a guy in a blue polo shirt and khakis.

[KnightofPhoenix]

eschilde wrote...

@KnightofPhoenix
Okay, I admit it, I assume people are the genders of their avatars :S
To tell you the truth, I think Loghain's dying for his crimes is a perfectly justifiable course of action. But so is letting him into the Grey Wardens. The reality is, despite good intentions, some crimes are not justifiable, and Loghain's brought Fereldan to the brink of civil war at a time when it's threatened by a Blight. If you didn't win the Landsmeet, there's very little doubt it would have been off with your head.

Like Mr Gaider says, it will depend on the player. I understand those who wish to execute Loghain, when they explain and justify it in a rational way, not the typical justification of "He is evilz, diez!!" or "I just hate him" or "Cause cute Alistair said so".
I personally felt he doesn't deserve death, but that's my opinion. Howe on the otherhand did.
I have a respect of people of genius. A once great person, imo, should be given the chance to right his sins. A scum should not.

[Costin_Razvan]

melkathi wrote...

But the other side in this argument does the same. Justifying everything with speeches about sacrifice or even worse, the thing that made me sick: the city elves' weakness ment they deserved to be sold as slaves. They are sinking to even lower lows from the same safe position.
The Loghain haters who choose to be judge, jury and executioner show the normal outrage of the mob and demand their pound of flesh, just as they would do in real life, if and only if the decission wasn't theirs.
But with the same ease the other side tries to not only justify but also make acceptable and right the war crimes.
And that is what worries me even more.
I do not think I could execute a man in cold blood. But I am equally terrified of forcing others to sacrifice them for a greater good I have decided on.

I don't justify anything, as there is nothing to justify.  He did some things which where preety common in the medieval era : poisoning, slave trade, assassins? He however didn't do them for personal gain or glrory but instead did them so he could defend his country against interal and external threats, I seriously cannot judge a man who had that intent in mind.

[Klystron]

Yet Loghain clearly knew that these 2 particular GWs were not Orlesians, they were merely ... inconvenient.  So he was acting in his own interest, not Ferelden's. 

[Ulicus]

eschilde wrote...

@Klystron
Well, the beacon at the Tower of Ishal was lit, so Loghain knew the GWs made it that far. Considering that he's a contingency kind of guy, it's probably something he had them do just in case. (And guess what, he was right!)

That's a point, actually. Loghain didn't know about the darkspawn in the tower, so it's not really a question of Loghain knowing the Grey Wardens "made it". He'd have assumed they were up there for most of the battle... which makes you wonder if he was tapping his foot wondering what was taking them so long to light the beacon, or Cailan so long to make the signal.

[eschilde]

@Klystron
At that point, he believed his interests (securing his hold on the regency) to be one and the same as the interests of Fereldan. Naturally, it would mean getting rid of people who would act against him.

Modifié par eschilde, 11 janvier 2010 - 08:56 .

[Tirigon]

eschilde wrote...

@Tirigon
I'm not from Germany, I'm from the United States. I am unfamiliar with German law, but I would find it surprising that you would get the same sentence for accidentally running over a person as you would for killing them in self defense or murdering them in cold blood.

You don´t.
But self defense does not count as murder. If you can prove your life was threathened, chances are good that you will not be punished at all for self defense, unless you did more than necessarily to ensure your safety.
Accidentally running over someone is another different matter. I don´t know all the english terms but I´ll try to explain short:

Mord = Murder = killing someone in a cruel way, to hide a crime, with means dangerous to the public (e.g. bombs etc...) Results in Prison for lifetime (in theory, practically, you can get free after 15 years)

Totschlag  = Manslaught = killing someone if it was not murder; results Prison about 10 years or longer

Fahrlässige Tötung = (maybe) accidental killing = accidents like car accidents, killing someone with a medicine overdose if you can prove you did NOT plan to poison him etc....; punishment is different, if you are lucky it might be no prison at all but only having to pay money, sometimes   a few years prison or prison on "Bewährung", that means you remain free but count as criminal and will be imprisoned if you commit another crime, even if it´s petty.

It´s far more complex, but that´s about it.

[Tirigon]

ReubenLiew wrote...

I don't think Tirigon is nearly old enough to actually be intimate with the ins and outs of german laws on murder.

I know qute a bit. Definitely more than you who are not even German.

[KnightofPhoenix]

melkathi wrote...
But the other side in this argument does the same. Justifying everything with speeches about sacrifice or even worse, the thing that made me sick: the city elves' weakness ment they deserved to be sold as slaves. They are sinking to even lower lows from the same safe position.

I do not know if you are addressing this to me specifically, as I understand that what I said might be interpretted that way. But I will clarify my position.
First, I don't believe anyone deserves anything by default. That means no deserves death or slavery. And no one deserves mercy or forgiveness or life even. It's rather what people usually seek and what they usually avoid.

Second, I did not claim that the elves' weakness deserves enslavement. I rather said, had they not been weak, they wouldn't have been enslaved. The difference is vast. Loghain wasn't enslaving the elves because he felt they deserve it by relying on idiotic racialism or whatever, for personal benefits. He did so out of necessity, for the sake of Ferelden, and obviously picked on the weakest part of society. Everyone does that. 

So do not confuse explanation and justification. I believe that Loghain's actions vis a vis the elves are justified not because of their weakness, but because it was necessary or at the very least helpful for the war effort.
My explanation is that it was the elves' own weakness that resulted in them being used that way. Had they been strong and had they stood up for their rights, none of this would have happened.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2010 - 09:01 .

[Klystron]

eschilde wrote...

@Klystron
At that point, he believed his interests (securing his hold on the regency) to be one and the same as the interests of Fereldan. Naturally, it would mean getting rid of people who would act against him.

Yes, including murdering the son of a king. 

[eschilde]

@Tirigon

Okay.. if you didn't get the essence of what I was trying to explain to you from spending all that time looking stuff up on the internet, I give up.

[j_j_m]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In medieval times no leader would have killed Loghain, when he can make him submit to him.

Loghain was but a single man after the Landsmeet. You would have a point if he was still in control of something but weak enough to be submitted. Everything he had went to the warden, Alistair or Arona. That doesn't usually happen in real life. In the end his reputation was ruined. Alone he wasn't worth that much.

[ReubenLiew]

And thus our point is proven.

Intent is important in determining murder. So intent DOES matter.