1429 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

AndreaRhaegar wrote...
I think that i could definitely prove it, if i was a Lawyer in Ferelden

I think that the duty of Loghain was first to obey his King's order, second trying to save his life.

He didn't either.

And we are talking of military orders in time of war, the most mandatory at all.

A Military Court would put Loghain to death in no time.

Not unless you happen to the highest ranking officer left in that nation.
Fortunately as a Grey Warden you are not subject to the natural order of military progression

[melkathi]

eschilde wrote...


Disobeying a military order does have its own punishments but that's a whole other situation.

So would quitting the field after an express order to join the battle then qualify as desertion or as mutiny?
:innocent:

[Xandurpein]

Tirigon wrote...

On the other hand, even if Loghain´s attack would NOT have saved the King, it would have been better to try, at least. The plan was clear: Loghain attacks when the Beacon is lit. He CLEARLY did not do what he was supposed to do. You can argue about his reasons not to attack, but it is a fact that he disobeyed the orders to attack when the Beacon is lit. I´m not familiar with military law, I have to admit, but I bet disobeying orders is a crime, right?

There are many exceptions to the general rule to follow military orders. No one is expected to follow orders that will result in suicide without hope of victory. It all comes down to if you can argue that the order was bad or not. And no - "I just followed the orders" is NOT always an excuse either.

[eschilde]

@RangerSG
That was my mistake, what I meant was by the time Loghain saw the beacon Cailan was already dead (that was the impression I got from it, if it wasn't true it's at least likely that Loghain never would have made it in time to save him). That isn't really the point though, because Loghain didn't _know_ Cailan was dead, but he did have reason to assume so.

@AndreaRhaegar
Loghain, as the highest ranking military personnel in Fereldan, may have been within his rights of violating this order because it preserved a number of his troops. We don't know that because we don't know what military law in Fereldan is. I'm saying you can't prove it without knowledge of what the actual law is.

Modifié par eschilde, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:20 .

[eschilde]

melkathi wrote...

So would quitting the field after an express order to join the battle then qualify as desertion or as mutiny?
:innocent:

Given that he quit the field because he thought he thought he would lose at Ostagar, and that he wanted to preserve his troops, we don't know the answer to that. It's possible it's not a crime at all. We don't know the law.

Edit: I'm not sure what else to say on this subject. Unless someone has a dissertation on the right to disobey an order in the Fereldan military, I really don't think there's a way we can continue down this path, other than people saying, "This is wrong because I think so," or "He didn't commit a crime because I think so."

Edit 2: On that note, we can't prove he's committed treason or high treason either, unless someone has a copy of Fereldan's laws handy somewhere, either. Damn you, codex writers!

Modifié par eschilde, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:26 .

[ReubenLiew]

I feel that the only other outcome even if Loghain HAD joined the battle would be that he'd have wasted most of his men, and Cailan would've died anyway.

In the cutscene we see Duncan looking up at the tower and saw it was lighted.

It could've only just been lighted not 2 minutes ago. 2 minutes is a very short time to race down to save him from a rampaging ogre.



Of course then Loghain would've been seen as a Hero, and he would've been made regent on the spot and he wouldn't have had all this trouble with the Grey Wardens, and everyone would be happy.

Or dead.

It's the same thing right?

[Ulicus]

eschilde wrote...

Given that he quit the field because he thought he thought he would lose at Ostagar, and that he wanted to preserve his troops, we don't know the answer to that. It's possible it's not a crime at all. We don't know the law.

Edit: I'm not sure what else to say on this subject. Unless someone has a dissertation on the right to disobey an order in the Fereldan military, I really don't think there's a way we can continue down this path, other than people saying, "This is wrong because I think so," or "He didn't commit a crime because I think so."

This is now my favourite post.

[Tirigon]

eschilde wrote...


Given that he quit the field because he thought he thought he would lose at Ostagar, and that he wanted to preserve his troops, we don't know the answer to that. It's possible it's not a crime at all. We don't know the law.

Edit: I'm not sure what else to say on this subject. Unless someone has a dissertation on the right to disobey an order in the Fereldan military, I really don't think there's a way we can continue down this path, other than people saying, "This is wrong because I think so," or "He didn't commit a crime because I think so."

You know, there is something like honor, though. If you risk your life holding the enemy so your ally can flank them to win the battle, you expect them to attack and not to abandon you.
I admit, we don´t know what the law on that subject is - but morally, it´s wrong to abandon the King and his army. They risked their life to allow Loghain a successful flank attack. And he didn´t use this chance.

[ReubenLiew]

Honor has cost more lives than it has saved.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ReubenLiew wrote...
Of course then Loghain would've been seen as a Hero, and he would've been made regent on the spot and he wouldn't have had all this trouble with the Grey Wardens, and everyone would be happy.
Or dead.
It's the same thing right?

It was too risky. We must not forget that Orlesian legions were on their way to Ferelden. Had Loghain rushed to save the king, there was a high probability that he would have died, or many of his men would have died, for nothing, thus leaving Ferelden vulnerable to Orlais and the darkspawn.
Like Mr. Gaider said. Loghain thought he was the best / only hope Ferelden has, up until the landsmeet. Sort of like Magneto thinking he is the best (and indeed only) hope for mutants. I know it's a stretch, but it's the basic idea.

[melkathi]

eschilde wrote...

melkathi wrote...

So would quitting the field after an express order to join the battle then qualify as desertion or as mutiny?
:innocent:

Given that he quit the field because he thought he thought he would lose at Ostagar, and that he wanted to preserve his troops, we don't know the answer to that. It's possible it's not a crime at all. We don't know the law.

Edit: I'm not sure what else to say on this subject. Unless someone has a dissertation on the right to disobey an order in the Fereldan military, I really don't think there's a way we can continue down this path, other than people saying, "This is wrong because I think so," or "He didn't commit a crime because I think so."

That's what the whole discussion comes down to though.
And DG's comments only made it more so. He strengthened a few points on both sides of the argument. Which I am happy with: the audience does not need to know every tiny detail.

[AndreaRhaegar]

@RangerSG: i agree with you about King=Kingdom issue.

eschilde wrote...
@AndreaRhaegar
Loghain, as the highest ranking military personnel in Fereldan, may have been within his rights of violating this order because it preserved a number of his troops. We don't know that because we don't know what military law in Fereldan is. I'm saying you can't prove it without knowledge of what the actual law is.

Of course, so you can't prove his innocence the same way.

In most military laws though, you CANNOT violate a direct order in time of war without be prosecuted.

Again, i think that with Loghain help the battle of Ostagar could have been won.

But that doesn't matter.

Loghain had to join the battle, not to think for himself.

Modifié par AndreaRhaegar, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:32 .

[eschilde]

@ReubenLiew
You know, there's a high correlation between heroism and eventual death!

Modifié par eschilde, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:27 .

[ReubenLiew]

Like I said! Happy! Or dead... it IS the same thing right?

[RangerSG]

ReubenLiew wrote...

I feel that the only other outcome even if Loghain HAD joined the battle would be that he'd have wasted most of his men, and Cailan would've died anyway.
In the cutscene we see Duncan looking up at the tower and saw it was lighted.
It could've only just been lighted not 2 minutes ago. 2 minutes is a very short time to race down to save him from a rampaging ogre.

Of course then Loghain would've been seen as a Hero, and he would've been made regent on the spot and he wouldn't have had all this trouble with the Grey Wardens, and everyone would be happy.
Or dead.
It's the same thing right?

Quite possible. Though it's fair to say that flanking an army would create such chaos that even darkspawn would be rendered disorganized and/or shattered for enough time to rescue at least as many from below as would'be been lost otherwise.

It may not have won the day, but it might have mitigated the disaster. And a lot can happen in 2 minutes on a battlefield. Most medeival melees were over in less than half an hour. Regardless of numbers, neither side could stand the prolonged carnage. Part of the reason why you have smaller armies frequently triumphing over larger ones.

[Tirigon]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Honor has cost more lives than it has saved.

That might be true, yes. Tell that the guys who decided to invent martial law, though:P

[Tirigon]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Like I said! Happy! Or dead... it IS the same thing right?

If yu are dead you can´t be sad anymore, so... yes. I guess you can say that.


Edit: Genitivi says he feels much better since he´s dead.

Modifié par Tirigon, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:30 .

[eschilde]

@AndreaRhaegar

I'm not sure how we got started on the route of accusing Loghain of treason or whatever >.> I just pretty much like to argue. But sure I can, he's innocent of being accused of treason because you can't prove he's guilty. Of course, that's based on innocent until proven guilty as well, which may not apply in Fereldan ^^

[ReubenLiew]

RangerSG wrote...

Quite possible. Though it's fair to say that flanking an army would create such chaos that even darkspawn would be rendered disorganized and/or shattered for enough time to rescue at least as many from below as would'be been lost otherwise.

It may not have won the day, but it might have mitigated the disaster. And a lot can happen in 2 minutes on a battlefield. Most medeival melees were over in less than half an hour. Regardless of numbers, neither side could stand the prolonged carnage. Part of the reason why you have smaller armies frequently triumphing over larger ones.

Maybe, but this is not a conventional army. Darkspawn are notoriously brave to the point of suicidal in the guidance of an Archdemon, so while they might have devastated the flank, to reach the King and stop a rampaging Ogre from crushing Cailan like a frat boy's beer can would be hard to call.

It might've saved some of the soldiers at the pass' lives but it would've cost the flanking army theirs, so in the end they still end up with nothing, but in this case Loghain would've been called a Hero.
He really should've went ahead and gone in, in hindsight. But hindsight is alwasy 20/20.

[Tirigon]

You can prove he is guilty quite easily. You win the duel, that is a Sign by the Maker that you are right.

[AndreaRhaegar]

eschilde wrote...

@AndreaRhaegar
I'm not sure how we got started on the route of accusing Loghain of treason or whatever >.> I just pretty much like to argue. But sure I can, he's innocent of being accused of treason because you can't prove he's guilty. Of course, that's based on innocent until proven guilty as well, which may not apply in Fereldan ^^

Eheheh "innocent until proven guilty" is a modern conquest, in medieval times it was the exact opposite, and Ferelden is a medieval-shaped world

Modifié par AndreaRhaegar, 11 janvier 2010 - 10:35 .

[AndreaRhaegar]

Tirigon wrote...

You can prove he is guilty quite easily. You win the duel, that is a Sign by the Maker that you are right.

The Sword is the Law

[ReubenLiew]

AndreaRhaegar wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

You can prove he is guilty quite easily. You win the duel, that is a Sign by the Maker that you are right.

The Sword is the Law

No!
I AM DA LAW!

[Tirigon]

ReubenLiew wrote...

AndreaRhaegar wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

You can prove he is guilty quite easily. You win the duel, that is a Sign by the Maker that you are right.

The Sword is the Law

No!
I AM DA LAW!

Sandal disapproves Enchantment!

[Fleshsucker]

I'm not the best stratagis in the world but i did take back the Kingdom from the Darkspawn without sacrificing Logan ( well not completely heh) I'm sure Logan's tactics at the field of Ostagar would have been more detailed and calculated than my own But he ran ((He is guilty of Dishonor in the field of battle...Hang em High)))...Says Clint Eastwood