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[Duncan Hills Coffee]

**I would make him pay by sending him to a prison or something like recruitment in the grey wardens is. I would definetly not kill a person. In the end, no matter how you justify it, killing a person is the ultimate selfish act, especially if you do it for revenge.**


It is not your place as a warden to kill OR IMPRISON Loghain. Conscription is your only right. The Blight is your concern, not justice

[Archonsg]

You know, now that DG has cleared up Loghain's part involving the Couslands, you have to wonder just how much of Howe's "rewards" were rewards and not outright blackmailing on Howe's part. It still does not change that Loghain is still responsible for his actions though, but it does make you wonder, no?

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

Archonsg wrote...

You know, now that DG has cleared up Loghain's part involving the Couslands, you have to wonder just how much of Howe's "rewards" were rewards and not outright blackmailing on Howe's part. It still does not change that Loghain is still responsible for his actions though, but it does make you wonder, no?

Great point.

[Elessara]

I also like that scene where Howe brings in Zevran and Loghain is just like, "Get it done!" and then you get a close up of his face. I can just see the expression ... he's regretting a ton of what he's done but there's nothing he can do about it now. There's no turning back for him.

[Costin_Razvan]

Duncan Hills Coffee wrote.
**I would make him pay by sending him to a prison or something like recruitment in the grey wardens is. I would definetly not kill a person. In the end, no matter how you justify it, killing a person is the ultimate selfish act, especially if you do it for revenge.**


It is not your place as a warden to kill OR IMPRISON Loghain. Conscription is your only right. The Blight is your concern, not justice

I was asked what I would do to a mass murderer. I don't consider Loghain such, and I definetly agree with what you say.

You are a Grey Warden, your task is to defeat the Blight, no matter what. It is why I choose to preserve the anvil and why I choose to side with Bhelen even as dwarf noble on my first playthough. I also spared Loghain, thinking that a general like him would be quite an addition to the grey wardens.

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Duncan Hills Coffee wrote.
**I would make him pay by sending him to a prison or something like recruitment in the grey wardens is. I would definetly not kill a person. In the end, no matter how you justify it, killing a person is the ultimate selfish act, especially if you do it for revenge.**


It is not your place as a warden to kill OR IMPRISON Loghain. Conscription is your only right. The Blight is your concern, not justice

I was asked what I would do to a mass murderer. I don't consider Loghain such, and I definetly agree with what you say.

You are a Grey Warden, your task is to defeat the Blight, no matter what. It is why I choose to preserve the anvil and why I choose to side with Bhelen even as dwarf noble on my first playthough. I also spared Loghain, thinking that a general like him would be quite an addition to the grey wardens.

thank you

[Gold Dragon]

In the final tally, well.....





This is a Single-player game. That means: How I play the game will NOT effect you or your gameplay experiences. In my first play-thru, I played HN as a female, who was terribly in love with Alistair, who said that Loghain must die for what he did to Duncan. So he died. Justice? Unlikely.



Ultimately, it's up to each individual player to decide, and deal with the after-effects in the rest of the game. Some say that he should die, some say not.



Kudos to Bioware's Writers for making such a memorable character! 27 pages.... WOW! Just.... WOW!

[Vicious]

I WONDER how much more popular Loghain would be if he was ROMANCABLE? I'd guess a LOT, with a LOT more people jumping to defend him ROFL



Me, if I'm a male human noble, I let him live, since I'm trying to marry his daughter. Otherwise, I kill him.



If nothing else, he is a stalwart party member with great dialogue; refreshing since by the end of the game, unless you're romancing him, Alistair literally has NOTHING new to say.

[Costin_Razvan]

Heh, he would beat Alistair to the punch if you could romance him. This thread wouldn't even exist then, instead it would be replaced by one called : The crimes of Loghain Mac Tir.

[Xandurpein]

I do recommend the thread "How I could spare Loghain" just to see how people can reason differently. Some people thinks an idealistic noble person always kill Loghain, but others (like me) almost always save him, when playing an idealistic noble person. It's illuminating to see how differently pepole can reason and still make sense.

[Archonsg]

But, if they made Loghain a romanceable, they would have to "toughen" up Alistair a tad ..just so he wouldn't look like a whimp by comparision. At the moment all he has in competition is Zevran and lets face it, I like Zev and all...but only my Dalish Elf female characters (and not all of them) would let him touch them. I am not saying we should make Alistair progress from a puppy dog to a raging pit bull, but a I am pretty sure my female characters would fall (more) in love with a very loyal, loveable but all business Alsatian (german shepard).

So its not really a bad thing on both counts.

Modifié par Archonsg, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:17 .

[Xandurpein]

Archonsg wrote...

But, if they made Loghain a romanceable, they would have to "toughen" up Alistair a tad ..just so he wouldn't look like a whimp by comparision. At the moment all he has in competition is Zevran and lets face it, I like Zev and all...but only my Dalish Elf female characters (and not all of them) would let him touch them. I am not saying we should make Alistair progress from a puppy dog to a raging pit bull, but a I am pretty sure my female characters would fall (more) in love with a very loyal, loveable but all business Alsatian (german shepard).

So its not really a bad thing on both counts.

I think that designing a man every woman who plays finds attractive is impossible. You can only please so many, and judging from other threads on this forum, I think it would have been no easy feat to create a character that would have aroused more interest from female gamers than Alistair.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In medieval times no leader would have killed Loghain, when he can make him submit to him.

That's what Sten says.
Medieval Monarchs were not bloodthirsty tyrants who just kill everyone around them (a la Stalin or other "modern" totalitarians). When you wield to the King, you usually recieved mercy. Add the fact that Loghain is a national symbol and no true leader would execute him, when he had the chance to have him as a serving subject. 

Bollocks. Traitors...especially REPEATED traitors, deserve only death.
He abandon Cailan (treason 1)
Tried to kill Alistair (treason 2)
Tried to subjugate the banns (treason 3)
Tried to kill everyon at the landsmeet (treason 4)

[Elanareon]

lol nvm

Modifié par Elanareon, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:48 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In medieval times no leader would have killed Loghain, when he can make him submit to him.

That's what Sten says.
Medieval Monarchs were not bloodthirsty tyrants who just kill everyone around them (a la Stalin or other "modern" totalitarians). When you wield to the King, you usually recieved mercy. Add the fact that Loghain is a national symbol and no true leader would execute him, when he had the chance to have him as a serving subject. 

Bollocks. Traitors...especially REPEATED traitors, deserve only death.
He abandon Cailan (treason 1)
Tried to kill Alistair (treason 2)
Tried to subjugate the banns (treason 3)
Tried to kill everyon at the landsmeet (treason 4)

Oh really?! Perhaps you might you might want to check history then. Your reasons are so stupid that I am not going to even argue against them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lesser pawns were sometimes pardoned. But the ringleaders? Not really.



Hmmm...I do have a question. If Loghain, a master tactician, was already planing for the possibiltiy he'll have to leave Cailan and fall back..why hasn't he planned for the possibiltiy or Cailans position being overrun and secured a retreat route?

You know.. a backup plan? Or was Cailan so glory-blind retreat didn't even come to his mind?

[Asylumer]

Elanareon wrote...

For Jowan's case, Remember that you were saved by Flemmeth and was healing at her house. Do you think injuries heal overnight? Loghain was already returning to Denerim while the battle is still ongoing. You traveled the "Wilds" to Lothering avoiding Darkspawn. Even if you went to Redcliffe right then Loghain still have plenty of time "plotting".

The rest i didn't read because its obvious you were taking everything at face value. Considering Jowan's case.

All that was brought up later on in the thread. I personally used the fact that the PC's party had to make its way through the Darkspawn infested wilds as a reason for how Jowan could've poisoned Eamon after the battle yet still made it to Redcliffe and done his thing before the first cutscene where Bann Teagan speaks for Eamon at the Landsmeet. I guess it's also worth consideration that just because you see that scene on the way to Lothering it doesn't necessarily have to take place then.

My original post argued that Arl Eamon could not have been poisoned before the battle. If Eamon was poisoned beforehand it could be taken to mean Loghain had plotted to kill Cailan at Ostagar. However, David Gaider implies that Eamon was in fact poisoned before battle, though not with the intent to kill, and there was a long period between the Origin stories and you arriving at Ostagar.

Trying to put it together:

1.) Reports of Darkspawn amassing in the Kocari Wilds
2.) Troops are sent in advance to Ostagar, including the 7 mages.
3.) King and Loghain are still in Denerim with most of the army
4.) Origin Here
5.) Jowan Captured and Brought to Denerim
6.) Duncan takes the PC along for his errands. Maybe even visiting all Origin locations?
7.) Loghain meets Jowan in prison and orders the poisoning
8.) The Army at Denerim moves out to Ostagar, meeting the forces already there.
9.) Several battles take place. Cailan and Loghain argue.
10.) The PC arrives at Ostagar.

Does that make sense to everyone?

Modifié par Asylumer, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:57 .

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Lesser pawns were sometimes pardoned. But the ringleaders? Not really.

Hmmm...I do have a question. If Loghain, a master tactician, was already planing for the possibiltiy he'll have to leave Cailan and fall back..why hasn't he planned for the possibiltiy or Cailans position being overrun and secured a retreat route?
You know.. a backup plan? Or was Cailan so glory-blind retreat didn't even come to his mind?

I think you just answered it yourself. Cailen was indeed that glory-blind.

[Lotion Soronarr]

That is not confirmed. He never struck me as suicidal.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That is not confirmed. He never struck me as suicidal.

OK. I should have phrased it as "I belive he is that Glory-blind". And no, I don't think Cailen is suicidal, I just think that the idea that he could loose and die never even entered his head.

[Lotion Soronarr]

During the cutscene of the beginign of the battle, it did look like he was having some doubts when looking at the horde.

Still, whne the darkspawn just kept coming and no Loghian was in sight, you'd think he'd decide to fall back. OR perhaps he had too much faith in Loghain?

[Costin_Razvan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

During the cutscene of the beginign of the battle, it did look like he was having some doubts when looking at the horde.
Still, whne the darkspawn just kept coming and no Loghian was in sight, you'd think he'd decide to fall back. OR perhaps he had too much faith in Loghain?

He was just a very, very big fool.

[Tirigon]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The robber did plan to rob the victim.(intent to rob). The mask fell off . The robber killed the victim to prevent identification. (intent to kill to prevent identification). The robber could have just walked away without killing the victim. The only difference here is the type of intent. The robber panicked and killed. No, he did not plan to kill the victim ahead of the time of the robbery. (premeditated). 
In the American courst system any death committed while in the process of committing another crime will be considered murder.
Example, the robber robs a man with a heart condition. The man has a heart attack because of the excitement from the robbery. The robber will be seen as contributing to the man's death. The robber will be charged with one of the degrees of murder.

Thanks for the information. It´s the same in Germany.

I only got the impression it was different in the USA because of what Reuben said.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Bollocks. Traitors...especially REPEATED traitors, deserve only death.
He abandon Cailan (treason 1)
Tried to kill Alistair (treason 2)
Tried to subjugate the banns (treason 3)
Tried to kill everyon at the landsmeet (treason 4)

Oh really?! Perhaps you might you might want to check history then. Your reasons are so stupid that I am not going to even argue against them.

The fact that many traitors in history are considered heroes by their people doesn´t make them innocent, nor does the fact that a successful traitor or tyrant is never accused.

If Germany had won WW2, Hitler would be considered the greatest hero the world has ever seen. (Some idiots actually think so, though he lost.) That doesn´t mean it´s true.

[Tirigon]

Duncan Hills Coffee wrote...

It is not your place as a warden to kill OR IMPRISON Loghain. Conscription is your only right. The Blight is your concern, not justice

Every human being has the right to kill someone like Loghain. (And elves or dwarfs, too, btw, if they would really exist.)