1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Tinmachine]

robertthebard wrote...
The Blight is his main concern, as it should be for any GW.  Despite how enmeshed in politics we are forced to become, GW's are supposed to remain politically neutral.  We have Sophia Dryden to thank for being kicked out of Ferelden for forgetting that point.  She became heavily enmeshed in politics, despite there being no Blight to stop.

Interesting, as I would say that sparing Loghain is enmeshing in politics, and that's what I meant all along. Riordan is actually stepping into the political game: Loghain lost a power struggle in Ferelden, and if things were to run the normal course, he would die. Would Arl Eamon let him live, if the PC wouldn't interfere? Kill Loghain, then GWs get the forces they need. Sparing Loghain does not seem politically neutral; letting Anora have the throne is, as she was the queen already. Kill Loghain, let his daughter be queen - as neutral as it gets. GWs gain respect and support from everyone. Letting Loghain live in one playthrough gave me no extra resource to fight the Blight, suggesting that it was, ultimately, not worth it from the GW perspective.

Modifié par Tinmachine, 12 janvier 2010 - 04:19 .

[Tirigon]

jsachun wrote...

Few Good Men 1992. Demi Moore, Jack Nicholson, & Tom Cruise. Military Court Justice. Good Movie.

Thanks for the info.

I´m still not convinced of your opinion, though:P

[Tirigon]

Tinmachine wrote...


Interesting, as I would say that sparing Loghain is enmeshing in politics, and that's what I meant all along. Riordan is actually stepping into the political game: Loghain lost a power struggle in Ferelden, and if things were to run the normal course, he would die. Would Arl Eamon let him live, if the PC wouldn't interfere? Kill Loghain, then GWs get the forces they need. Sparing Loghain does not seem politically neutral; letting Anora have the throne is, as she was the queen already. Kill Loghain, let his daughter be queen - as neutral as it gets. GWs gain respect and support from everyone. Letting Loghain live in one playthrough gave me no extra resource to fight the Blight, suggesting that it was, ultimately, not worth it from the GW perspective.

The problem is that Alistair leaves. If you could convince him to stay you could let Loghain live from a Grey Warden perspective, but loosing a more experienced Warden makes no sense.
Despite all my hate for Loghain I actually WANTED to make him join the wardens on my first playthrough, (because it made sense from a Mage / GW perspective who didn´t care much for politics) but when Alistair threatened to leave that settled it. Poorly implemented Imo.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Tinmachine wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Really, It just like saying everyone deserves their faith. Afterall you get what you give. And which royalty do you know of in history that didn't have a past about them that history tries to forget.

I think you mean "deserve their fate"?

In which case, well, no. Some may not "deserve" their fate. Loghain may not "deserve" to die, his intentions were not too extreme, not more than Bhelen's. He was, however, wrong in his evaluation of the Blight. Him dying is the best solution to the mess. Bhelen being king is the best solution to the dwarven mess, although he would "deserve" to die for esentially mudering two of his siblings.

History does not try to forget anything about anyone. It's the people who do that. History will tell you that Napoleon was a little frivolous power-mad military and organisation mastermind who caused the death of hundreds of thousands. People would then go and worship him for being "great".

One flaw in your logic, you are using hindsight to dictate actions.

Up until the Landsmeet the only person in that room that knows beyond all shadow of a doubt that Loghain's plan would have destroyed Ferelden had he been successful was Riordan.

Who was the person whom suggested Loghain be spared?

Riordan, I think that speaks volumes.

No.  Loghain's "plan" was not working against the Blight.  This much was an observable fact from the player's perspective.  Unless you assume that he had some kind of doomsday anti-darkspawn weapon, you know by the Landsmeet that the Wardens are the only ones whom can lead an army to defeat the darkspawn.

[Dragon Age1103]

Tirigon wrote...

Tinmachine wrote...


Interesting, as I would say that sparing Loghain is enmeshing in politics, and that's what I meant all along. Riordan is actually stepping into the political game: Loghain lost a power struggle in Ferelden, and if things were to run the normal course, he would die. Would Arl Eamon let him live, if the PC wouldn't interfere? Kill Loghain, then GWs get the forces they need. Sparing Loghain does not seem politically neutral; letting Anora have the throne is, as she was the queen already. Kill Loghain, let his daughter be queen - as neutral as it gets. GWs gain respect and support from everyone. Letting Loghain live in one playthrough gave me no extra resource to fight the Blight, suggesting that it was, ultimately, not worth it from the GW perspective.

The problem is that Alistair leaves. If you could convince him to stay you could let Loghain live from a Grey Warden perspective, but loosing a more experienced Warden makes no sense.
Despite all my hate for Loghain I actually WANTED to make him join the wardens on my first playthrough, (because it made sense from a Mage / GW perspective who didn´t care much for politics) but when Alistair threatened to leave that settled it. Poorly implemented Imo.

   I wouldn't say Alistair is more experienced. Perhpas slightly at killing Darkspawn if Loghain wasn't in the first two battles at Ostagar? I don't recall. Alistair is a follower not a leader, he's also not of the same military rank as Loghain. Loghain can rally troops much easier, keep moral high, & strategize much more effectively than Alistair ever could. 
    Loghain isn't very useful in game to our player b/c 1 we do not know if we can trust him to not almost go mad with paranoia again further risking the security of Ferelden 2 he never gets a chance to show his skills as a general.
     So for the most part no matter what path you choose, loghain will most likely be excuted b/c well he is a paranoid sad little man who betrayed the King. I for one let him live due to how much I liked him in the book but in my eyes anyone who will kill there King who is not a tyrant should die no questions asked. lol

[robertthebard]

Tinmachine wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
The Blight is his main concern, as it should be for any GW.  Despite how enmeshed in politics we are forced to become, GW's are supposed to remain politically neutral.  We have Sophia Dryden to thank for being kicked out of Ferelden for forgetting that point.  She became heavily enmeshed in politics, despite there being no Blight to stop.

Interesting, as I would say that sparing Loghain is enmeshing in politics, and that's what I meant all along. Riordan is actually stepping into the political game: Loghain lost a power struggle in Ferelden, and if things were to run the normal course, he would die. Would Arl Eamon let him live, if the PC wouldn't interfere? Kill Loghain, then GWs get the forces they need. Sparing Loghain does not seem politically neutral; letting Anora have the throne is, as she was the queen already. Kill Loghain, let his daughter be queen - as neutral as it gets. GWs gain respect and support from everyone. Letting Loghain live in one playthrough gave me no extra resource to fight the Blight, suggesting that it was, ultimately, not worth it from the GW perspective.

While Loghain may be a political figure, he is also a known and accomplished warrior.  This is what Riordan sees.  He believes, as Duncan does with the PC, that Loghain would be an asset to the Wardens, and may survive the Joining.  Remember, 50% of the people that we know of that drank the blood die.  So, we might still get Loghain dead, only in a much more unpleasant way.  Metagaming tells us that he'll survive, of course, however, as a motivation for a character, it's decent enough.  All you miss out on if he should die is the blood splatter on Anora.

[robertthebard]

Tirigon wrote...

Tinmachine wrote...


Interesting, as I would say that sparing Loghain is enmeshing in politics, and that's what I meant all along. Riordan is actually stepping into the political game: Loghain lost a power struggle in Ferelden, and if things were to run the normal course, he would die. Would Arl Eamon let him live, if the PC wouldn't interfere? Kill Loghain, then GWs get the forces they need. Sparing Loghain does not seem politically neutral; letting Anora have the throne is, as she was the queen already. Kill Loghain, let his daughter be queen - as neutral as it gets. GWs gain respect and support from everyone. Letting Loghain live in one playthrough gave me no extra resource to fight the Blight, suggesting that it was, ultimately, not worth it from the GW perspective.

The problem is that Alistair leaves. If you could convince him to stay you could let Loghain live from a Grey Warden perspective, but loosing a more experienced Warden makes no sense.
Despite all my hate for Loghain I actually WANTED to make him join the wardens on my first playthrough, (because it made sense from a Mage / GW perspective who didn´t care much for politics) but when Alistair threatened to leave that settled it. Poorly implemented Imo.

The big problem with this is metagaming.  Your character doesn't know that Alistair will leave.  It is impossible to say you role play a decision based on player knowledge of the consequence.  Your character has no idea that he'll bail on you.  Hence so many surprised people when they aren't spoiled about that possibility when it does come up.

[TuringPoint]

Loghain was pretty badly mistaken in his logic for making the choices he made.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Tirigon wrote...

The problem is that Alistair leaves. If you could convince him to stay you could let Loghain live from a Grey Warden perspective, but loosing a more experienced Warden makes no sense.
Despite all my hate for Loghain I actually WANTED to make him join the wardens on my first playthrough, (because it made sense from a Mage / GW perspective who didn´t care much for politics) but when Alistair threatened to leave that settled it. Poorly implemented Imo.

Agreed. I would have liked a third option of Sparing Loghain yet NOT making him a Warden, and not having to have him in party. Find some other suitable, horrible punishment for him, like exile to Orlais or something.

[Tinmachine]

robertthebard wrote...
While Loghain may be a political figure, he is also a known and accomplished warrior.  This is what Riordan sees.  He believes, as Duncan does with the PC, that Loghain would be an asset to the Wardens, and may survive the Joining.  Remember, 50% of the people that we know of that drank the blood die.  So, we might still get Loghain dead, only in a much more unpleasant way.  Metagaming tells us that he'll survive, of course, however, as a motivation for a character, it's decent enough.  All you miss out on if he should die is the blood splatter on Anora.

The character's experience with the Joining would suggest Loghain survives. The two obvious losers that died at Ostagar cannot be compared to the legend Loghain is. So, the PC that would care about Ferelden, would have to think: is having Loghain in the Grey Wardens here and now worth it? From the point of view of a Ferelden PC, Riordan was wrong: having Loghain was not worth the price.

Duncan believes PC would be an asset, but the circumstances of PC's recruitment are, basically, without any greater political consequence. Duncan really cares about staying out of politics. He wouldn't recruit PC as a human noble until the Couslands are dead exactly beacause he wants to avoid the political fallout. Recruiting Loghain is of such high profile that a Fereldan PC may want to avoid it.

The Grey Wardens could recruit anyone, but should they? If the only son of the emperor of Orlais was a great warrior, should they waltz in and recruit him? Would that benefit their fight against the blight? A PC that cares for Ferelden and tries to see the political consequences needs to be careful,  is all.

Amazing discussion, btw. OP is king.

[ReubenLiew]

However at that point Loghain has lost all his political power, in front of the landsmeet he was nothing, guilty of crimes that would have any other lesser man executed several times over already. So recruiting Loghain was not so terrible a political outcry as forcing the recruitment of the yound child of a Teyrn without his consent.

Plus Anora agrees to forcing him into the Joining, and Loghain also accepts the judgement, so there is not real ripple caused from him being called to take the Blood.

[TuringPoint]

And it stands to reason that Loghain, if he weren't kept by Maric's side, would not have a chance to make the job of the Grey Wardens so difficult. The Orlesians would have been able to offer reinforcements, Cailan would have waited for them, and then they might have done something more than die off in that battle.

Even with the shallow excuse of paranoia, not letting the Orlesian army help was a bad choice for a leader to make.  It was inexcusably bad logic, and in his defense of his actions if you let him live, he suggests that he sees this mistake in logic, now.  His plan was rather poor.  Maric, and then Queen Anora, were in perfectly decent relations with Orlais, and there's no reason to judge that Orlais had any further interest in taking control of Ferelden, during a blight of all things.

In the end it worked out though.

Modifié par Alocormin, 12 janvier 2010 - 06:48 .

[robertthebard]

Tinmachine wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
While Loghain may be a political figure, he is also a known and accomplished warrior.  This is what Riordan sees.  He believes, as Duncan does with the PC, that Loghain would be an asset to the Wardens, and may survive the Joining.  Remember, 50% of the people that we know of that drank the blood die.  So, we might still get Loghain dead, only in a much more unpleasant way.  Metagaming tells us that he'll survive, of course, however, as a motivation for a character, it's decent enough.  All you miss out on if he should die is the blood splatter on Anora.

The character's experience with the Joining would suggest Loghain survives. The two obvious losers that died at Ostagar cannot be compared to the legend Loghain is. So, the PC that would care about Ferelden, would have to think: is having Loghain in the Grey Wardens here and now worth it? From the point of view of a Ferelden PC, Riordan was wrong: having Loghain was not worth the price.

Duncan believes PC would be an asset, but the circumstances of PC's recruitment are, basically, without any greater political consequence. Duncan really cares about staying out of politics. He wouldn't recruit PC as a human noble until the Couslands are dead exactly beacause he wants to avoid the political fallout. Recruiting Loghain is of such high profile that a Fereldan PC may want to avoid it.

The Grey Wardens could recruit anyone, but should they? If the only son of the emperor of Orlais was a great warrior, should they waltz in and recruit him? Would that benefit their fight against the blight? A PC that cares for Ferelden and tries to see the political consequences needs to be careful,  is all.

Amazing discussion, btw. OP is king.

There would be no political fall out from the Nobles.  Again, we come back to the conditions of the duel, until one party yields, and they follow the winner.  PC wins, the decisions are his/hers to make.  No fall out.  Regarding the Orlesian's son, yeah, they might well recruit him, especially during a Blight.  The fact that there may well be consequences to exercising the Right of Conscription is mentioned somewhere, but it is still done.  Suppose the Arl of Denerim had been home when the City Elf kills his son.  Do you think it would have been a no consequences recruitment?

[ReubenLiew]

Alocormin wrote...

And it stands to reason that Loghain, if he weren't kept by Maric's side, would not have a chance to make the job of the Grey Wardens so difficult. The Orlesians would have been able to offer reinforcements, Cailan would have waited for them, and then they might done something more than die off in that battle.

The Darkspawn weren't going to let them wait, were they?

[TuringPoint]

Listen to the meeting they have before the battle, man Think about it, too.

[The Capital Gaultier]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

And it stands to reason that Loghain, if he weren't kept by Maric's side, would not have a chance to make the job of the Grey Wardens so difficult. The Orlesians would have been able to offer reinforcements, Cailan would have waited for them, and then they might done something more than die off in that battle.

The Darkspawn weren't going to let them wait, were they?

There are other strategies that could have been used to force the fight to another day.  The darkspawn don't ever strike me as particularly strategic.

[ReubenLiew]

Yes, he said to wait for the Orlesians.

The darkspawn were also going to attack, THAT NIGHT.

What exactly did you want them to do, sit and wait for the Orlesians while the Darkspawn are at their gates tearing it down?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
The problem is that Alistair leaves. If you could convince him to stay you could let Loghain live from a Grey Warden perspective, but loosing a more experienced Warden makes no sense.
Despite all my hate for Loghain I actually WANTED to make him join the wardens on my first playthrough, (because it made sense from a Mage / GW perspective who didn´t care much for politics) but when Alistair threatened to leave that settled it. Poorly implemented Imo.

Considering that Alistair didn't even know how a Grey Warden kills an Archdemon and that he follows your commands like a dog despite being a Grey Warden before you, I would hesistate to consider Alistair as an "experienced Grey Warden". Loghain as a man and a military leader is far more experienced that alistair ever could be.
So losing someone like Loghain while we are expected to fight the Blight is more of a loss.

My resolve to spare Loghain was only strenghtened by Alistairs weakness and betrayal. He proved to me at that very moment that he is not a Grey Warden and thus needs to be replaced.

[TuringPoint]

It was heavily implied that Loghain had been saying "no" to letting the Orlesians come for a long time. Thus, they could have had the Orlesians from the beginning. Even if I'm mistaken on this, though -

If they decided to let the Orlesians come - think about this - how could they delay the battle?

Yes, they would pull back for the time being.

Wouldn't it be better to delay the battle for reinforcements than let the king commit whatever was there to the field, and get himself and half his army killed? Loghain is an idiot in this situation. Even if the Orlesians were interested in attacking Fereldan, Loghain would not have the manpower to fend them and the blight off at the same time. Also, taking on the blight without outside assistance leaves them in a weakened position relative to whoever would take advantage, such as their neighbors the Orlesians. If the Orlesians shared some of the burden they would be in no better position for an invasion.

And then he decides the Grey Wardens needed to die. If he had succeed at both agendas, the success of the Blight would've been guaranteed, I'm afraid...

If you think Loghain could not have known this, think again.  He could have done some research and been well-informed on the blight himself rather than attributing it all to myth.

Modifié par Alocormin, 12 janvier 2010 - 06:57 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Yes, he said to wait for the Orlesians.
The darkspawn were also going to attack, THAT NIGHT.
What exactly did you want them to do, sit and wait for the Orlesians while the Darkspawn are at their gates tearing it down?

Execute a defensive strategy instead of an ambush.  Or, withdraw and find a different place to force an engagement.

[TuringPoint]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...


Execute a defensive strategy instead of an ambush.  Or, withdraw and find a different place to force an engagement.

EXACTLY.

[Tinmachine]

robertthebard wrote...
There would be no political fall out from the Nobles.  Again, we come back to the conditions of the duel, until one party yields, and they follow the winner.  PC wins, the decisions are his/hers to make.  No fall out.  Regarding the Orlesian's son, yeah, they might well recruit him, especially during a Blight.  The fact that there may well be consequences to exercising the Right of Conscription is mentioned somewhere, but it is still done.  Suppose the Arl of Denerim had been home when the City Elf kills his son.  Do you think it would have been a no consequences recruitment?

Would Duncan still try to recruit then? The Arl could just kill the PC anyway and claim Duncan came too late or whatever. The GWs do not yet have a very strong position, do they? One of the reasons the Conscription is never succesfully  resisted might be because it is not implemented when it could actually BE resisted. Lucky the Arl of Denerim wasn't at home, I think, I cannot easily imagine he'd let the PC run along with Duncan. Notice how Duncan recruits the Dwarven noble in the Deep Roads? Would've been damn tougher to plausibly implement the recruitment if he was to storm the Assembly, claiming the brother-killer should go with him - although, given the Dwarven culture, he would have a higher chance probably than with the elf from alienage. The GWs are not magically immune to politics - them being evicted from Ferelden once should make this clear.

So, as for the fall-out with the nobles, well.. it's your roleplay. I see mine differently. I would not have my Ferelden character believe that letting a proven regicide live is a fallout-free decision. PC wins, ergo his accusations are proven true: Loghain killed his king. Do we let him live? My PC says no (another one said yes, for different reasons).

[robertthebard]

Tinmachine wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
There would be no political fall out from the Nobles.  Again, we come back to the conditions of the duel, until one party yields, and they follow the winner.  PC wins, the decisions are his/hers to make.  No fall out.  Regarding the Orlesian's son, yeah, they might well recruit him, especially during a Blight.  The fact that there may well be consequences to exercising the Right of Conscription is mentioned somewhere, but it is still done.  Suppose the Arl of Denerim had been home when the City Elf kills his son.  Do you think it would have been a no consequences recruitment?

Would Duncan still try to recruit then? The Arl could just kill the PC anyway and claim Duncan came too late or whatever. The GWs do not yet have a very strong position, do they? One of the reasons the Conscription is never succesfully  resisted might be because it is not implemented when it could actually BE resisted. Lucky the Arl of Denerim wasn't at home, I think, I cannot easily imagine he'd let the PC run along with Duncan. Notice how Duncan recruits the Dwarven noble in the Deep Roads? Would've been damn tougher to plausibly implement the recruitment if he was to storm the Assembly, claiming the brother-killer should go with him - although, given the Dwarven culture, he would have a higher chance probably than with the elf from alienage. The GWs are not magically immune to politics - them being evicted from Ferelden once should make this clear.

So, as for the fall-out with the nobles, well.. it's your roleplay. I see mine differently. I would not have my Ferelden character believe that letting a proven regicide live is a fallout-free decision. PC wins, ergo his accusations are proven true: Loghain killed his king. Do we let him live? My PC says no (another one said yes, for different reasons).

Mage origin.

ETA:  Also Dwarf Commoner.  If they decided to ignore Duncan's right to claim the Right, it could be very ugly trying to get out of Orzammar alive.

Modifié par robertthebard, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:04 .

[Xandurpein]

Actually Duncan says something completly different. According to Duncan it is he who has argued that they should wait for the Orlesian Grey Wardens, but the King doesn't want to wait for them, as he thinks being with the Grey Wardens make him invincible.

[TuringPoint]

Xandurpein wrote...

Actually Duncan says something completly different. According to Duncan it is he who has argued that they should wait for the Orlesian Grey Wardens, but the King doesn't want to wait for them, as he thinks being with the Grey Wardens make him invincible.

And yet Loghain is arguing against letting the Orlesians in, and his qualms about the Orlesians are what drives him to all sorts of desperate measures he wouldn't have to resort to if he just openly accepted the Grey Wardens.

Because remember, the King argues for getting the Orlesians in as reinforcements.  Not to say  that Loghain is entirely at fault, but that if Loghain were truly only concerned for Ferelden, making informed choices, and he applied some of his political cunning to the situation at hand, he might convince the King to wait for the Orlesians.  The Grey Wardens might have convinced him of that on their own, even, if Loghain weren't working against that.

Plus, if the battle was that Desperate and Loghain knew it, why would he think waiting would be better?  Just waiting?  Why wouldn't the Orlesians attack and enter the country anyway, if that's what they wanted?

Modifié par Alocormin, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:18 .