1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Bullets McDeath]

I wish the mods would create a "Loghan is evil, deal with it" sticky thread so we don't have go through this whole rigamarole everytime a Loghain fanboy gets a hair up his nethers and wants to defend his delusional hero with a bunch of equally delusional psuedo-logic that doesn't even make sense on it's own. Seriously, this is like "You guys-- Loghain was the hero!!!" thread # 4,238.

[Bullets McDeath]

[quote]Dragon Age1103 wrote...

[quote]Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

[quote]Dragon Age1103 wrote...
your perspective makes sense to me. Loghain say the error of his ways when he realized your character was stronger than he assumed. "a child wanting to play in the game of war" or how ever he put it. lol. I understand he pushed the brink of insanity due to his growing paranoia of the Orlesians invading but he did so many more good things for Ferelden than bad. He made mistakes but at heart he is a good man. He has a short temper & sometimes starts fights he really shouldn't but he was always good to his people & his country. his heart was just temporarily corrupted by fear.[/quote]

Corrupted by fear and a weasel named Howe.

I actually have to wonder whether Howe was still in cahoots with the Orlesians and actually had the blight gone as he probably planned, would've got them back in again after seeing off Loghain.

To quote his dying words..

"I... deserved.... more!"

@Outlaw everyone is entitled to their opinion, if you can't accept that, stay out of a debate.
[/quote]


It doesn't entitle you to be wrong. The guy has been disproven multiple times in this thread and just keeps on arguing. THE GUY WHO WROTE THE GAME HAS SAID ON THIS BOARD THAT LOGHAIN PLANNED TO BETRAY CALIN BEFORE HE EVEN GOT TO OSTAGAR.

What else is there to discuss? Nothing, unless you want to ignore all the facts.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 janvier 2010 - 05:42 .

[Xandurpein]

I agree with Dragon Age1103. The reason I keep returning to debates like this is in the hope of finding more proof either way, because I'm still curious about the events. Personal opinions stated as facts without supporting evidence is just trolling.

[eschilde]

Xandurpein wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Greyshaft1 wrote...

If Loghain truly believed he could not reach the king why does he publically lie and blame the wardens for the kings death?
.

He says that the battle is lost because the Grey Wardens (you!) lit the Beacon to late, which technically could be perfectly true. Of course there are the matter of all the Darkspawn that was in the way, but still...

Just how the darkspawn got to overrun the tower is a big mystery to me, especially as the tower was supposed to be secured. That's one of the big question marks in the game, for me.

Not really a question mark.  A high cunning character (30+) points out that the darkspawn had to know of the plan ahead of time.  

Very interesting. Could you perhaps elaborate on this? When do you get the onversation that allows you to realize this and what exactly is being said?

At the Tower of Ishal, where Alistair stops you at the beginning of the second(?) floor and says, "What are these darkspawn doing ahead of the rest of the horde?" you can get an additional dialogue option that allows you to answer with something along the lines of, "They'd only attack the tower if they knew the plan," or some such.

I've only gotten this on a DC rogue so while I picked the option, I could easily chalk it up to being a paranoid conspiracy theorist type of character. At any rate, I don't see it as being anything more definitive than using it in a metagaming "the writers wouldn't have put it in if it wasn't true" kind of justification.

Modifié par eschilde, 10 janvier 2010 - 05:43 .

[melkathi]

Asylumer wrote...


I myself checked the cut-scene before writing my post. Just because he's looking (rather darkly) at the tower when you see him, doesn't mean that he wasn't looking elsewhere before that. And again, why would Wynne not push Loghain if she knew he couldn't see the battle from there? They both seemed to accept that there was a rather large amount of Darkspawn between Loghain and the King.

But you do understand that you are using something that isn't there. Something that might have happened (though a lot of people doubt he had the line of sight to make such a decission) but that is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. So this bit, since you wish to use facts has to be left out as pure speculation on your side.



On another note: anyone who thinks that Loghain in whatever way informed the darkspawn of the tower of Ishal and/or let them into the tower on purpose is simply being silly.
I do find the suggestion very likely though that he never intended to light the signal. Regarding the tower one question does remain open after all: when you arrive at Ostagar, why have his men got the tower sealed up? It does make sense that he had a small group there who were supposed to pull out with the rest of his force once he sounded the retreat, who got surprised and overrun by the darkspawn though.

[eschilde]

@outlaworacle



Actually, I agree with the OP that what DG says can be interpreted in different ways. It's pretty vague on some counts, though what it really leaves up to interpretation is what was premeditated and what was Loghain taking advantage of the situation.

[Bullets McDeath]

Xandurpein wrote...

I agree with Dragon Age1103. The reason I keep returning to debates like this is in the hope of finding more proof either way, because I'm still curious about the events. Personal opinions stated as facts without supporting evidence is just trolling.

Go look up trolling. Stating opinions as facts, which is basically what the OP is doing, not I, is possibly stupid or perhaps at best aggravating. Has nothing to do with trolling.

If you study the events in the game carefully, it is clear as day that Loghain planned his betrayal before Ostagar. Things does not just sort of "happen" and he had to react and made some bad decisions due to Orlesian paranoia. He plotted to steal the throne. Even the guy who wrote the game has said this. Yet, people continue finding logically unsound reasons for why Loghain was an alright guy and don't listen to anyone who disproves them... including the guy who wrote the damn game.

[Dragon Age1103]

can't belive I wasted my time with OP & denial boy

Modifié par Dragon Age1103, 10 janvier 2010 - 06:32 .

[Asylumer]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

Why didn't you address my point that completely destroyed your argument? It was not in his character to leave Calin to die. Some part of him must of felt it necessary to leave Calin to die in order to take up power to save Ferelden from the blight. There may have not even been reason to it, just fear, paranoia & probably close to insanity. He did kill Calin either for power or was too cowardice to save him. Something stopped him though & it was his fault. The battle was not lost, Loghain was lost in fear or a quest for power.

Oh? The only good point you made I talked about in my previous post.

Everything else has been covered, you've just been too blind to read it. No, Loghain would not have left Cailan to die, not without a reason. If he suspected the Wardens delayed the signal on purpose and that there was no Blight, he'd think there was need for an army soon. He didn't want to risk Ferelden's entire force to possibly save the King.

... so nice of you to pay attention though, really.

The facts ARE Loghain failed to protect Calin, he failed to give reasons why he felt the battle was lost, he also failed to prove the Grey Warden's were working with the Orlesians or planning anything else he suspected.

He failed to protect Cailan: True. From the Comments we know he's deeply saddened by it.
He failed to give reasons for why the battle was lost: Who did he need to answer to again?
He failed to prove the Grey Wardens were working with Orlais: Duh? That's why he was mistaken and admitted it after you defeat him.

I mean really, why do I bother posting if you won't read?

If he was so confident the battle was hopeless he would of pointed out why.

Again, who would he point this out to, and why? Most of the Landsmeet seems convinced that Loghain was in the right, that's why you get a penalty for bringing it up.

Loghain by nature is extremely stubborn & will rarely turn down a fight. If he does it is not b/c he feels the odds are against him but b/c he is restrained for some reason.

If you had been paying attention you'd know that reason.

The books clearly reveals many aspects of his personality.

Probably, but so far nothing you've brought up has been relevant.

I'm not arguing the points like the guard, the mage, Arl Eamon, none of that just that he did kill Calin out of fear or for power he is responsible.

Great! Then start arguing for why he did kill Cailan instead of crying that I'm wrong. I'm willing to be proven wrong but you've done a ******-poor job of it so far. Ignoring arguments I've already made, and not addressing them at all besides "YOU'RE WRONG", is a good way to get ignored yourself though.

[Bullets McDeath]

I also love how working with blood mages, enslaving elves, imprisoning your own daughter and assassinating all your rivals is just proof "y'know, he did what he thought was necesarry!!!" and not proof that he's an evil, murdering scumbag.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 janvier 2010 - 05:53 .

[Dragon Age1103]

outlaworacle wrote...

I wish the mods would create a "Loghan is evil, deal with it" sticky thread so we don't have go through this whole rigamarole everytime a Loghain fanboy gets a hair up his nethers and wants to defend his delusional hero with a bunch of equally delusional psuedo-logic that doesn't even make sense on it's own. Seriously, this is like "You guys-- Loghain was the hero!!!" thread # 4,238.

haha it is just funny how wrong & angry you are..it is all speculation. There is more proof he wasn't evil but it is probably hard to see past that stubborn little mind of yours. Loghain saw there error of his ways...he accepted his death. He didn't acknolwedge he was evil..no one can repent & be evil you fool. Darkspawn are evil, they hold no emotion they just kill blindy...they are souless. Loghain felt sorrow for the terrible things he did....he thought he was defending his country but he was controlled by fear & probably manipulated by others(Howe). Point being you can not be evil & repent for your sins. People do not murder then find god, repent..then have a priest say sorry you did something bad the good wyou do will never out weigh one deed so see you in hell sinner!!!! sorry bud you have a terrible argument...actually you don't even have one you just snap at people with nothing to back up what you say.

[Bullets McDeath]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

I wish the mods would create a "Loghan is evil, deal with it" sticky thread so we don't have go through this whole rigamarole everytime a Loghain fanboy gets a hair up his nethers and wants to defend his delusional hero with a bunch of equally delusional psuedo-logic that doesn't even make sense on it's own. Seriously, this is like "You guys-- Loghain was the hero!!!" thread # 4,238.

haha it is just funny how wrong & angry you are..it is all speculation. There is more proof he wasn't evil but it is probably hard to see past that stubborn little mind of yours. Loghain saw there error of his ways...he accepted his death. He didn't acknolwedge he was evil..no one can repent & be evil you fool. Darkspawn are evil, they hold no emotion they just kill blindy...they are souless. Loghain felt sorrow for the terrible things he did....he thought he was defending his country but he was controlled by fear & probably manipulated by others(Howe). Point being you can not be evil & repent for your sins. People do not murder then find god, repent..then have a priest say sorry you did something bad the good wyou do will never out weigh one deed so see you in hell sinner!!!! sorry bud you have a terrible argument...actually you don't even have one you just snap at people with nothing to back up what you say.

I don't need to argue with idiots who can convince themselves Loghain was a good guy. They've already been proven wrong. Hell, your own arguments prove you wrong if you had any reading comprehension at all... which you clearly don't, otherwise you'd know from reading the books and playing the game that yes, while Loghain was once a great man, he has fallen far and his actions in Origins are in no way heroic, despite what he might tell even himself.

Again, you can argue with the dude who wrote the game all you want, you're the one who looks like a fool, not me.

[Dragon Age1103]

outlaworacle wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

I agree with Dragon Age1103. The reason I keep returning to debates like this is in the hope of finding more proof either way, because I'm still curious about the events. Personal opinions stated as facts without supporting evidence is just trolling.

Go look up trolling. Stating opinions as facts, which is basically what the OP is doing, not I, is possibly stupid or perhaps at best aggravating. Has nothing to do with trolling.

If you study the events in the game carefully, it is clear as day that Loghain planned his betrayal before Ostagar. Things does not just sort of "happen" and he had to react and made some bad decisions due to Orlesian paranoia. He plotted to steal the throne. Even the guy who wrote the game has said this. Yet, people continue finding logically unsound reasons for why Loghain was an alright guy and don't listen to anyone who disproves them... including the guy who wrote the damn game.

  There is a HUGE difference between Loghain doing evil things...hurting people...being on a mad quest for power that leads to betrayal...being paranoid & being completely evil. ME & most of the people on here aside from the OP are not saying Loghain didn't make mistakes...but he's not evil, he was a good man then made a lot of poor decisions & finally saw the error of his ways & was either murdered or regained his honor by joining the Warden's & aiding in defeating the blight.

Modifié par Dragon Age1103, 10 janvier 2010 - 06:03 .

[eschilde]

outlaworacle wrote...

I also love how working with blood mages, enslaving elves, imprisoning your own daughter and assassinating all your rivals is just proof "y'know, he did what he thought was necesarry!!!" and not proof that he's an evil, murdering scumbag.

I'm fairly sure that Loghain didn't know Anora was imprisoned. Cauthrien didn't, after all, when she comes to stop you from murdering everyone in Howe's household. Anora being imprisoned was Howe's brilliant idea, and it's fairly likely that working with the slavers was his idea as well, given that the order to seal the Alienage is given by Howe.

Working with blood mages isn't necessarily evil, though it's certainly indefensible, as is working with the Tevinter slavers. If you're trying to use those to support the idea that Loghain planned Ostagar with the intention of getting Cailin killed, well, you can't, really. If you're just saying that what he did was wrong, well, sure. (But the GW also has plenty of opportunity to do 'wrong' things as well.. so in the end it's a matter of history is written by the victor.) 

[Dragon Age1103]

outlaworacle wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

I wish the mods would create a "Loghan is evil, deal with it" sticky thread so we don't have go through this whole rigamarole everytime a Loghain fanboy gets a hair up his nethers and wants to defend his delusional hero with a bunch of equally delusional psuedo-logic that doesn't even make sense on it's own. Seriously, this is like "You guys-- Loghain was the hero!!!" thread # 4,238.

haha it is just funny how wrong & angry you are..it is all speculation. There is more proof he wasn't evil but it is probably hard to see past that stubborn little mind of yours. Loghain saw there error of his ways...he accepted his death. He didn't acknolwedge he was evil..no one can repent & be evil you fool. Darkspawn are evil, they hold no emotion they just kill blindy...they are souless. Loghain felt sorrow for the terrible things he did....he thought he was defending his country but he was controlled by fear & probably manipulated by others(Howe). Point being you can not be evil & repent for your sins. People do not murder then find god, repent..then have a priest say sorry you did something bad the good wyou do will never out weigh one deed so see you in hell sinner!!!! sorry bud you have a terrible argument...actually you don't even have one you just snap at people with nothing to back up what you say.

I don't need to argue with idiots who can convince themselves Loghain was a good guy. They've already been proven wrong. Hell, your own arguments prove you wrong if you had any reading comprehension at all... which you clearly don't, otherwise you'd know from reading the books and playing the game that yes, while Loghain was once a great man, he has fallen far and his actions in Origins are in no way heroic, despite what he might tell even himself.

Again, you can argue with the dude who wrote the game all you want, you're the one who looks like a fool, not me.

Yes I look like a fool proving you worng while instead of making a sound argument you insult me. Nice work, really. Loghains life in 3 simple phases GOOD, BAD, GOOD!!!! See how hard that is to comprehend. He saved the heir to the throne, defeated the Orlesians, kicked them out of Ferelden, then killed the king, tried to kill all grey warden's attempted to steal the throne, then was defeated by us...asked for forgiveness...saw the error of his ways & knwoing you(an idiot) was killed & not given a chance to use his skills to join the ranks of Grey Warden's & defeat the blight at your side.
 Why? b/c you're a closed-minded, arrogant, angry little man who basically keeps calling ppl idiots while creaming "i'm right,i'm right"
 I did not just present an opinion it was facts of evens before & during the game but you being the type of person you are...will most likely ignore them & say something stupid.

[Bullets McDeath]

eschilde wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

I also love how working with blood mages, enslaving elves, imprisoning your own daughter and assassinating all your rivals is just proof "y'know, he did what he thought was necesarry!!!" and not proof that he's an evil, murdering scumbag.

I'm fairly sure that Loghain didn't know Anora was imprisoned. Cauthrien didn't, after all, when she comes to stop you from murdering everyone in Howe's household. Anora being imprisoned was Howe's brilliant idea, and it's fairly likely that working with the slavers was his idea as well, given that the order to seal the Alienage is given by Howe.

Working with blood mages isn't necessarily evil, though it's certainly indefensible, as is working with the Tevinter slavers. If you're trying to use those to support the idea that Loghain planned Ostagar with the intention of getting Cailin killed, well, you can't, really. If you're just saying that what he did was wrong, well, sure. (But the GW also has plenty of opportunity to do 'wrong' things as well.. so in the end it's a matter of history is written by the victor.) 

It wasn't intended as proof of pre-meditation at Ostagar, just examples people like to glaze over or wax philosophical about. Yes, there is alot of moral grey area in this game, that is much of the point. The player's character has nothing to do with this debate. Sure, maybe he/she's an even bigger **** than Loghain. Most of my characters are. But there is also the possiblity of him or her being a ridiculous goody two-shoes, so it doesn't really add much to the debate. Yes, your character can do wrong and evil things... how does that forgive what Loghain does?

[Dragon Age1103]

Asylumer wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

Why didn't you address my point that completely destroyed your argument? It was not in his character to leave Calin to die. Some part of him must of felt it necessary to leave Calin to die in order to take up power to save Ferelden from the blight. There may have not even been reason to it, just fear, paranoia & probably close to insanity. He did kill Calin either for power or was too cowardice to save him. Something stopped him though & it was his fault. The battle was not lost, Loghain was lost in fear or a quest for power.

Oh? The only good point you made I talked about in my previous post.

Everything else has been covered, you've just been too blind to read it. No, Loghain would not have left Cailan to die, not without a reason. If he suspected the Wardens delayed the signal on purpose and that there was no Blight, he'd think there was need for an army soon. He didn't want to risk Ferelden's entire force to possibly save the King.

... so nice of you to pay attention though, really.

The facts ARE Loghain failed to protect Calin, he failed to give reasons why he felt the battle was lost, he also failed to prove the Grey Warden's were working with the Orlesians or planning anything else he suspected.

He failed to protect Cailan: True. From the Comments we know he's deeply saddened by it.
He failed to give reasons for why the battle was lost: Who did he need to answer to again?
He failed to prove the Grey Wardens were working with Orlais: Duh? That's why he was mistaken and admitted it after you defeat him.

I mean really, why do I bother posting if you won't read?

If he was so confident the battle was hopeless he would of pointed out why.

Again, who would he point this out to, and why? Most of the Landsmeet seems convinced that Loghain was in the right, that's why you get a penalty for bringing it up.

Loghain by nature is extremely stubborn & will rarely turn down a fight. If he does it is not b/c he feels the odds are against him but b/c he is restrained for some reason.

If you had been paying attention you'd know that reason.

The books clearly reveals many aspects of his personality.

Probably, but so far nothing you've brought up has been relevant.

I'm not arguing the points like the guard, the mage, Arl Eamon, none of that just that he did kill Calin out of fear or for power he is responsible.

Great! Then start arguing for why he did kill Cailan instead of crying that I'm wrong. I'm willing to be proven wrong but you've done a ******-poor job of it so far. Ignoring arguments I've already made, and not addressing them at all besides "YOU'RE WRONG", is a good way to get ignored yourself though.

Haha it's good to know you'll be staying up there. Have fun trolling!! I'm done wasting my time on someone who is stuck on repeat. You have people throwing facts at you left & right while you have NO facts you just twist words & views around form the game to make you seem like you have any idea of what you're talking about. in reality you are COMPLETELY CLUELESS. It's just sad

[Asylumer]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

Haha it's good to know you'll be staying up there. Have fun trolling!! I'm done wasting my time on someone who is stuck on repeat. You have people throwing facts at you left & right while you have NO facts you just twist words & views around form the game to make you seem like you have any idea of what you're talking about. in reality you are COMPLETELY CLUELESS. It's just sad

It's funny how the person who I admitted had the best argument of the bunch accuses me of closed-mindedness... his best point just wasn't the one he thought it was.

[NRG-OptimaL]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

I wish the mods would create a "Loghan is evil, deal with it" sticky thread so we don't have go through this whole rigamarole everytime a Loghain fanboy gets a hair up his nethers and wants to defend his delusional hero with a bunch of equally delusional psuedo-logic that doesn't even make sense on it's own. Seriously, this is like "You guys-- Loghain was the hero!!!" thread # 4,238.

haha it is just funny how wrong & angry you are..it is all speculation. There is more proof he wasn't evil but it is probably hard to see past that stubborn little mind of yours. Loghain saw there error of his ways...he accepted his death. He didn't acknolwedge he was evil..no one can repent & be evil you fool. Darkspawn are evil, they hold no emotion they just kill blindy...they are souless. Loghain felt sorrow for the terrible things he did....he thought he was defending his country but he was controlled by fear & probably manipulated by others(Howe). Point being you can not be evil & repent for your sins. People do not murder then find god, repent..then have a priest say sorry you did something bad the good wyou do will never out weigh one deed so see you in hell sinner!!!! sorry bud you have a terrible argument...actually you don't even have one you just snap at people with nothing to back up what you say.

I don't need to argue with idiots who can convince themselves Loghain was a good guy. They've already been proven wrong. Hell, your own arguments prove you wrong if you had any reading comprehension at all... which you clearly don't, otherwise you'd know from reading the books and playing the game that yes, while Loghain was once a great man, he has fallen far and his actions in Origins are in no way heroic, despite what he might tell even himself.

Again, you can argue with the dude who wrote the game all you want, you're the one who looks like a fool, not me.

Yes I look like a fool proving you worng while instead of making a sound argument you insult me. Nice work, really. Loghains life in 3 simple phases GOOD, BAD, GOOD!!!! See how hard that is to comprehend. He saved the heir to the throne, defeated the Orlesians, kicked them out of Ferelden, then killed the king, tried to kill all grey warden's attempted to steal the throne, then was defeated by us...asked for forgiveness...saw the error of his ways & knwoing you(an idiot) was killed & not given a chance to use his skills to join the ranks of Grey Warden's & defeat the blight at your side.
 Why? b/c you're a closed-minded, arrogant, angry little man who basically keeps calling ppl idiots while creaming "i'm right,i'm right"
 I did not just present an opinion it was facts of evens before & during the game but you being the type of person you are...will most likely ignore them & say something stupid.

loghain is a stupid farmer and i slaughtered him HAHAHAHA!

[Bullets McDeath]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

I wish the mods would create a "Loghan is evil, deal with it" sticky thread so we don't have go through this whole rigamarole everytime a Loghain fanboy gets a hair up his nethers and wants to defend his delusional hero with a bunch of equally delusional psuedo-logic that doesn't even make sense on it's own. Seriously, this is like "You guys-- Loghain was the hero!!!" thread # 4,238.

haha it is just funny how wrong & angry you are..it is all speculation. There is more proof he wasn't evil but it is probably hard to see past that stubborn little mind of yours. Loghain saw there error of his ways...he accepted his death. He didn't acknolwedge he was evil..no one can repent & be evil you fool. Darkspawn are evil, they hold no emotion they just kill blindy...they are souless. Loghain felt sorrow for the terrible things he did....he thought he was defending his country but he was controlled by fear & probably manipulated by others(Howe). Point being you can not be evil & repent for your sins. People do not murder then find god, repent..then have a priest say sorry you did something bad the good wyou do will never out weigh one deed so see you in hell sinner!!!! sorry bud you have a terrible argument...actually you don't even have one you just snap at people with nothing to back up what you say.

I don't need to argue with idiots who can convince themselves Loghain was a good guy. They've already been proven wrong. Hell, your own arguments prove you wrong if you had any reading comprehension at all... which you clearly don't, otherwise you'd know from reading the books and playing the game that yes, while Loghain was once a great man, he has fallen far and his actions in Origins are in no way heroic, despite what he might tell even himself.

Again, you can argue with the dude who wrote the game all you want, you're the one who looks like a fool, not me.

Yes I look like a fool proving you worng while instead of making a sound argument you insult me. Nice work, really. Loghains life in 3 simple phases GOOD, BAD, GOOD!!!! See how hard that is to comprehend. He saved the heir to the throne, defeated the Orlesians, kicked them out of Ferelden, then killed the king, tried to kill all grey warden's attempted to steal the throne, then was defeated by us...asked for forgiveness...saw the error of his ways & knwoing you(an idiot) was killed & not given a chance to use his skills to join the ranks of Grey Warden's & defeat the blight at your side.
 Why? b/c you're a closed-minded, arrogant, angry little man who basically keeps calling ppl idiots while creaming "i'm right,i'm right"
 I did not just present an opinion it was facts of evens before & during the game but you being the type of person you are...will most likely ignore them & say something stupid.

Look dude, I don't care that you read the book cover to cover twice as soon as you got it and Loghain is your imaginary best friend. Yes, I know he was once a good guy. And yes, he can be redeemed to a degree. I never disputed any of that. What I'm arguing is that he purposefully betrayed Calian at Ostagar, which is easily proven with simple logic if you really want to discuss it, furthermore (and more importantly) IT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED BY THE WRITER OF THE GAME, who also happens to be the author of the books you cherish so.

You have yet to prove me wrong. Of course, being the person you are, you will probably not understand what I am saying and will continue a bunch of b*tchy fanboy ranting and still be unable to deal with the fact that Loghain clearly left Cailan to die intentionally, as was always his plan. But hey... what do I know? I've only had this argument 1,000 times and always ended up right... besides, what does the writer of the game know, anyway?

[Dragon Age1103]

outlaworacle wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

I wish the mods would create a "Loghan is evil, deal with it" sticky thread so we don't have go through this whole rigamarole everytime a Loghain fanboy gets a hair up his nethers and wants to defend his delusional hero with a bunch of equally delusional psuedo-logic that doesn't even make sense on it's own. Seriously, this is like "You guys-- Loghain was the hero!!!" thread # 4,238.

haha it is just funny how wrong & angry you are..it is all speculation. There is more proof he wasn't evil but it is probably hard to see past that stubborn little mind of yours. Loghain saw there error of his ways...he accepted his death. He didn't acknolwedge he was evil..no one can repent & be evil you fool. Darkspawn are evil, they hold no emotion they just kill blindy...they are souless. Loghain felt sorrow for the terrible things he did....he thought he was defending his country but he was controlled by fear & probably manipulated by others(Howe). Point being you can not be evil & repent for your sins. People do not murder then find god, repent..then have a priest say sorry you did something bad the good wyou do will never out weigh one deed so see you in hell sinner!!!! sorry bud you have a terrible argument...actually you don't even have one you just snap at people with nothing to back up what you say.

I don't need to argue with idiots who can convince themselves Loghain was a good guy. They've already been proven wrong. Hell, your own arguments prove you wrong if you had any reading comprehension at all... which you clearly don't, otherwise you'd know from reading the books and playing the game that yes, while Loghain was once a great man, he has fallen far and his actions in Origins are in no way heroic, despite what he might tell even himself.

Again, you can argue with the dude who wrote the game all you want, you're the one who looks like a fool, not me.

Yes I look like a fool proving you worng while instead of making a sound argument you insult me. Nice work, really. Loghains life in 3 simple phases GOOD, BAD, GOOD!!!! See how hard that is to comprehend. He saved the heir to the throne, defeated the Orlesians, kicked them out of Ferelden, then killed the king, tried to kill all grey warden's attempted to steal the throne, then was defeated by us...asked for forgiveness...saw the error of his ways & knwoing you(an idiot) was killed & not given a chance to use his skills to join the ranks of Grey Warden's & defeat the blight at your side.
 Why? b/c you're a closed-minded, arrogant, angry little man who basically keeps calling ppl idiots while creaming "i'm right,i'm right"
 I did not just present an opinion it was facts of evens before & during the game but you being the type of person you are...will most likely ignore them & say something stupid.

Look dude, I don't care that you read the book cover to cover twice as soon as you got it and Loghain is your imaginary best friend. Yes, I know he was once a good guy. And yes, he can be redeemed to a degree. I never disputed any of that. What I'm arguing is that he purposefully betrayed Calian at Ostagar, which is easily proven with simple logic if you really want to discuss it, furthermore (and more importantly) IT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED BY THE WRITER OF THE GAME, who also happens to be the author of the books you cherish so.

You have yet to prove me wrong. Of course, being the person you are, you will probably not understand what I am saying and will continue a bunch of b*tchy fanboy ranting and still be unable to deal with the fact that Loghain clearly left Cailan to die intentionally, as was always his plan. But hey... what do I know? I've only had this argument 1,000 times and always ended up right... besides, what does the writer of the game know, anyway?

Really? yeah? Is reading that hard. I was also proving Calin was murdered but I guess you mixed up the text or something. The only disagreement I had with you was calling Loghain evil. You can't be evil unless...well you're evil. hence the good,bad,good, ded or redemption argument.
  You called me an idiot but you can't comprhend that I was talking about something competely different. nice. You're done, next. thanks for playing though. DUH!!!!! cpt obvious saves the day. Haha nah I'm just kidding bud but you did miss my entire point & latched on to the completely wrong subject somehow. lol. I agree with you fool Calin=one dead b*tch thansk Loghain...but Loghain=not evil!!! thats all i'm saying

[david46]

If you go by the knight's code as evidenced by Landry in Denerim, the only "honorable" way to deal with Logain is to prove his treachery on his body. Not being of noble origin, "the rule of the Streets" still demands the death of Logain. Zevran's pre-death is confession all the motivation needed.



If Logain is such a great general, and as some have indicated, could see the battle, why does he need or wait for a signal? He should be able to see when to charge and outflank an opponent. Or was he not expecting a signal with his picked men at the tower? I suggest his plan all along was to remove Cailan by not coming to his aid, fueled by his irrational fear of Orlais. He may have even had men there to insure he didn't survive. It looked like he was surprised by the beacon actually being lit, and went on with plan B.



What I gleaned from the game, Logain is power mad. He believes only a great general like himself can defeat the Darkspawn and will do anything to make it so. He and only he is has that greatness and therefore must lead. His irrational fear of Orlais causes him to eliminate the Grey Wardens since some are from there.



If you do let Logain live are you setting up a repeat of Sophia Dryden? Can a ruler take that chance?

[Dragon Age1103]

NRG-OptimaL wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

I wish the mods would create a "Loghan is evil, deal with it" sticky thread so we don't have go through this whole rigamarole everytime a Loghain fanboy gets a hair up his nethers and wants to defend his delusional hero with a bunch of equally delusional psuedo-logic that doesn't even make sense on it's own. Seriously, this is like "You guys-- Loghain was the hero!!!" thread # 4,238.

haha it is just funny how wrong & angry you are..it is all speculation. There is more proof he wasn't evil but it is probably hard to see past that stubborn little mind of yours. Loghain saw there error of his ways...he accepted his death. He didn't acknolwedge he was evil..no one can repent & be evil you fool. Darkspawn are evil, they hold no emotion they just kill blindy...they are souless. Loghain felt sorrow for the terrible things he did....he thought he was defending his country but he was controlled by fear & probably manipulated by others(Howe). Point being you can not be evil & repent for your sins. People do not murder then find god, repent..then have a priest say sorry you did something bad the good wyou do will never out weigh one deed so see you in hell sinner!!!! sorry bud you have a terrible argument...actually you don't even have one you just snap at people with nothing to back up what you say.

I don't need to argue with idiots who can convince themselves Loghain was a good guy. They've already been proven wrong. Hell, your own arguments prove you wrong if you had any reading comprehension at all... which you clearly don't, otherwise you'd know from reading the books and playing the game that yes, while Loghain was once a great man, he has fallen far and his actions in Origins are in no way heroic, despite what he might tell even himself.

Again, you can argue with the dude who wrote the game all you want, you're the one who looks like a fool, not me.

Yes I look like a fool proving you worng while instead of making a sound argument you insult me. Nice work, really. Loghains life in 3 simple phases GOOD, BAD, GOOD!!!! See how hard that is to comprehend. He saved the heir to the throne, defeated the Orlesians, kicked them out of Ferelden, then killed the king, tried to kill all grey warden's attempted to steal the throne, then was defeated by us...asked for forgiveness...saw the error of his ways & knwoing you(an idiot) was killed & not given a chance to use his skills to join the ranks of Grey Warden's & defeat the blight at your side.
 Why? b/c you're a closed-minded, arrogant, angry little man who basically keeps calling ppl idiots while creaming "i'm right,i'm right"
 I did not just present an opinion it was facts of evens before & during the game but you being the type of person you are...will most likely ignore them & say something stupid.

loghain is a stupid farmer and i slaughtered him HAHAHAHA!

haha!! he's not a farmer he's a dirty thief with no daddy!!!!

[Dragon Age1103]

david46 wrote...

If you go by the knight's code as evidenced by Landry in Denerim, the only "honorable" way to deal with Logain is to prove his treachery on his body. Not being of noble origin, "the rule of the Streets" still demands the death of Logain. Zevran's pre-death is confession all the motivation needed.

If Logain is such a great general, and as some have indicated, could see the battle, why does he need or wait for a signal? He should be able to see when to charge and outflank an opponent. Or was he not expecting a signal with his picked men at the tower? I suggest his plan all along was to remove Cailan by not coming to his aid, fueled by his irrational fear of Orlais. He may have even had men there to insure he didn't survive. It looked like he was surprised by the beacon actually being lit, and went on with plan B.

What I gleaned from the game, Logain is power mad. He believes only a great general like himself can defeat the Darkspawn and will do anything to make it so. He and only he is has that greatness and therefore must lead. His irrational fear of Orlais causes him to eliminate the Grey Wardens since some are from there.

If you do let Logain live are you setting up a repeat of Sophia Dryden? Can a ruler take that chance?

  I love you!!! lol not really but thank you for being the first person to talk out of the correct hole!! Using logic & facts instead of opinions based on almost nothing!!!! The OP could learn from you friend!!!!!

[ejoslin]

Xandurpein wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


Not really a question mark.  A high cunning character (30+) points out that the darkspawn had to know of the plan ahead of time.  

Very interesting. Could you perhaps elaborate on this? When do you get the onversation that allows you to realize this and what exactly is being said?

In the tower when Alistair says something about the darkspawn aren't supposed to be there.  The PC with high cunning has a dialog choice asking why the darkspawn would be there to begin with unless they knew about the plan.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 janvier 2010 - 06:24 .