1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

robertthebard wrote...

The big problem with this is metagaming.  Your character doesn't know that Alistair will leave.  It is impossible to say you role play a decision based on player knowledge of the consequence.  Your character has no idea that he'll bail on you.  Hence so many surprised people when they aren't spoiled about that possibility when it does come up.

No. I said "Make Loghain warden blablabla.".. and Alistair threatened to leave. Then I said: "Well, ok, you can kill him, Ali-darling" (I was playing elf mage in love with Ali on first playthrough).
No metagaming there.

[Tinmachine]

robertthebard wrote...
Mage origin.

ETA:  Also Dwarf Commoner.  If they decided to ignore Duncan's right to claim the Right, it could be very ugly trying to get out of Orzammar alive.

I hardly think the knight-commander qualifies as someone with a truly high political profile in Ferelden, since it really felt as if what was cooked in the Tower, stayed in the Tower. I would agree tho that this recruitment is actually the most controversial there is atm. The alienage elf is lucky and not troubled, as the Arl dies at Ostagar along with his king. Could be much different otherwise... might be more Crows going after our elf had the Arl stayed alive.

The Dwarven commoner seems to be of no consequence himself. He hasn't even killed anyone important. It was  not, ultimately, a politically dangerous decision. Not like, say, letting live a killer of an heir to the throne. Or letting live a killer of the king.

Sorry, I can't just help it. Ultimately, it is a game, where the amount of hard facts is limited and a lot of is left to one's feelings and imagination. I understand your points, but my gaming experience won't let me believe them.

Btw, recruting the only son of the ruler... I wonder what the world designers would say. I trust it could be done in Anderfels, where the GWs are virtually the only authority, but even the hardcore guy that Riordan is seems to consider the Anders a tad excessive.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Considering that Alistair didn't even know how a Grey Warden kills an Archdemon and that he follows your commands like a dog despite being a Grey Warden before you, I would hesistate to consider Alistair as an "experienced Grey Warden". Loghain as a man and a military leader is far more experienced that alistair ever could be.
So losing someone like Loghain while we are expected to fight the Blight is more of a loss.

My resolve to spare Loghain was only strenghtened by Alistairs weakness and betrayal. He proved to me at that very moment that he is not a Grey Warden and thus needs to be replaced.

At least Alistair is a Warden for 6 months longer than you, Loghain is new. I agree he is more experienced as General. But that is useless to me. I want to be General myself. I prefer followers who do what I say without arguing to ones who want to command themselfes. So Imo Loghain´s experience as leader is a minus while Alistair´s doglike qualities are a plus.

I´d like someone like Loghain as a adviser, maybe, but not as follower. And not after he tried to kill meB)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Considering that Alistair didn't even know how a Grey Warden kills an Archdemon and that he follows your commands like a dog despite being a Grey Warden before you, I would hesistate to consider Alistair as an "experienced Grey Warden". Loghain as a man and a military leader is far more experienced that alistair ever could be.
So losing someone like Loghain while we are expected to fight the Blight is more of a loss.

My resolve to spare Loghain was only strenghtened by Alistairs weakness and betrayal. He proved to me at that very moment that he is not a Grey Warden and thus needs to be replaced.

At least Alistair is a Warden for 6 months longer than you, Loghain is new. I agree he is more experienced as General. But that is useless to me. I want to be General myself. I prefer followers who do what I say without arguing to ones who want to command themselfes. So Imo Loghain´s experience as leader is a minus while Alistair´s doglike qualities are a plus.

I´d like someone like Loghain as a adviser, maybe, but not as follower. And not after he tried to kill meB)

A perfectly legitimate reason. I like your way of thinking lol.
My Dwarven Noble is planing on making Alistair king and himself as chancellor (aka the person who will really rule the country). So both Anora and Loghain have to die.

It will depend on who you are roleplaying. My human noble (the playthrough I identify with the most) spared Loghain because turning an enemy into an ally is something only an excellent leader would do. And he needs to get rid of Alistair as a potential threat to his claim for the throne.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 janvier 2010 - 07:32 .

[Rwraith]

All I care about Loghain is that I was able to chop his ugly head off.

[RangerSG]

1) I utterly disagree that Alistair's reaction to the offer to have Loghain join the GW is "poorly implemented." It makes perfect sense in character for him to react this way. It's consistent with his personal weakness throughout the game (a lack of belonging).



2) The argument that Loghain is "less experienced as a Grey Warden" doesn't carry any weight to me. The man has been a warrior his entire life. And not all of that as a general. Besides, even if you're the army's commander, having a good tactician to aid you is hardly a bad thing, unless you're just too egotistical to admit you need aid.



3) Putting Loghain in an asylum or prison or anything else isn't an option a Grey Warden has. They don't have the authority to act in that way. And there's no authority other than the Landsmeet that could make another punishment. And how long would THAT take?

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

@RangerSg



1) I agree

2) I STRONGLY agree

3) I agree but i also want to state that it is also a punishment to kill him, which a GW has no right to do.



Sophia Dryden is a perfect example. She tried to kill the king and look how she turned out

[Sarevok Anchev]

LOL! I shouldnt have posted my Poll

Loghain Survival rate

Now my 90% death penalty shrinked to sth. like 75-80%.... what a shame


Btw a question for the ladies: So most of you seem to likeylike Alistair?!
What about his oppinion when considering Loghains death penalty?
Can you resist this huge puppy eyes asking you: "Pleaaassee *sniff*, cut his head of *twinkle* for meeee?"

[Woman Warden 118]

now why loghain did save the lives of the many men under his control, if he had done what he was supposed to do he would have saved much much more. he could have saved the king and Duncan and all the men that were left when Loghain was supposed to flank the darkspawn. and before the battle in the meeting with the king just before he left the table he said "Yes Cailin, a glourious moment for us all." in a sarcastic tone. If this does not give you at least a little bit of reason to think he planned his retreat that is fine. But know that he also said he already had men stationed at the tower, and if not for Cailin he could have given those men any orders he wanted to. I might be looking a little to deeply into it hoever. Plus he was selling inocent elves into slavery to do god knows what just so he could make some coin. That does not seem so neccisary, inocents suffered at Logihn's hand. And no one had better say "oh it was the only way, he needed money" because he could have found another way to get money. He even bribed the athorities not to get in the way of it all, to 'turn the other cheek' and ignor it. in this I find Loghain evil and not trustworthy

[Woman Warden 118]

Sarevok Anchev if you gave him a chance Alistair could woo you to lol

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Tinmachine wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Really, It just like saying everyone deserves their faith. Afterall you get what you give. And which royalty do you know of in history that didn't have a past about them that history tries to forget.

I think you mean "deserve their fate"?

In which case, well, no. Some may not "deserve" their fate. Loghain may not "deserve" to die, his intentions were not too extreme, not more than Bhelen's. He was, however, wrong in his evaluation of the Blight. Him dying is the best solution to the mess. Bhelen being king is the best solution to the dwarven mess, although he would "deserve" to die for esentially mudering two of his siblings.

History does not try to forget anything about anyone. It's the people who do that. History will tell you that Napoleon was a little frivolous power-mad military and organisation mastermind who caused the death of hundreds of thousands. People would then go and worship him for being "great".

One flaw in your logic, you are using hindsight to dictate actions.

Up until the Landsmeet the only person in that room that knows beyond all shadow of a doubt that Loghain's plan would have destroyed Ferelden had he been successful was Riordan.

Who was the person whom suggested Loghain be spared?

Riordan, I think that speaks volumes.

No.  Loghain's "plan" was not working against the Blight.  This much was an observable fact from the player's perspective.  Unless you assume that he had some kind of doomsday anti-darkspawn weapon, you know by the Landsmeet that the Wardens are the only ones whom can lead an army to defeat the darkspawn.

So when you first played the game did you keep away from all spoilers and thus didn't know that a Warden was needed to sacrifice themselves to end the Blight?

No? Ok, so neither you nor your character knew why the wardens were needed to defeat the darkspawn.

Yes, well even if you did know, your character doesn't, but then again, I guess not everyone here are roleplayers.

Each to their own way of playing. Main point of this topic I kind of thought was to talk of the subject from a 'character' perspective.

[Moonstryder]

So if we let Loghain live, will he be the returning character in the expansion instead of smAlistar? I would like to see more character development with Loghain... and a romance scene with his first officer chick (whats her name?)

[Klystron]

Alistair is a lousy GW because he is too moralistic, he is still basically a Templar.
Loghain, drink up.


edit:  her name is Ser Cauthrien.

Modifié par Klystron, 13 janvier 2010 - 12:01 .

[Woman Warden 118]

Klystron, you have a point Alistair is a bit of a soft touch, a softy. but it gives him modivation to end the blight. but you do have a rly good point

[Woman Warden 118]

Rwraith wrote...

All I care about Loghain is that I was able to chop his ugly head off.

i agree it was rather fun

[The Capital Gaultier]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Tinmachine wrote...

jsachun wrote...

Really, It just like saying everyone deserves their faith. Afterall you get what you give. And which royalty do you know of in history that didn't have a past about them that history tries to forget.

I think you mean "deserve their fate"?

In which case, well, no. Some may not "deserve" their fate. Loghain may not "deserve" to die, his intentions were not too extreme, not more than Bhelen's. He was, however, wrong in his evaluation of the Blight. Him dying is the best solution to the mess. Bhelen being king is the best solution to the dwarven mess, although he would "deserve" to die for esentially mudering two of his siblings.

History does not try to forget anything about anyone. It's the people who do that. History will tell you that Napoleon was a little frivolous power-mad military and organisation mastermind who caused the death of hundreds of thousands. People would then go and worship him for being "great".

One flaw in your logic, you are using hindsight to dictate actions.

Up until the Landsmeet the only person in that room that knows beyond all shadow of a doubt that Loghain's plan would have destroyed Ferelden had he been successful was Riordan.

Who was the person whom suggested Loghain be spared?

Riordan, I think that speaks volumes.

No.  Loghain's "plan" was not working against the Blight.  This much was an observable fact from the player's perspective.  Unless you assume that he had some kind of doomsday anti-darkspawn weapon, you know by the Landsmeet that the Wardens are the only ones whom can lead an army to defeat the darkspawn.

So when you first played the game did you keep away from all spoilers and thus didn't know that a Warden was needed to sacrifice themselves to end the Blight?

No? Ok, so neither you nor your character knew why the wardens were needed to defeat the darkspawn.

Yes, well even if you did know, your character doesn't, but then again, I guess not everyone here are roleplayers.

Each to their own way of playing. Main point of this topic I kind of thought was to talk of the subject from a 'character' perspective.

I'm not talking about ending the Blight.  I'm talking about fighting it.  Loghain is losing ground and losing support.  Howe straight up tells the player (not the PC) that there's not gonna be enough troops to end the Blight.  Only the Grey Wardens can marshal an army to fight the Blight by the Landsmeet.

[MutantSpleen]

Ok didn't read the whole thread so this may have been addressed. Some are saying Loghain conspired with the Darkspawn at Ostagar so they knew about the plan and the Tower of Ishal before the battle. That is just ridiculous. So who did Loghain make a deal with? Did he have the Hurloc high general over for some drinks so he could tell them their plans. Give me a break, you don't negotiate, or talk, or plan with Darkspawn. They are a mindless, souless Horde.



By the time the tower beacon was lit, it was too late. The King was dead. I however don't think Loghain made a deal with the Darkspawn. Mainly because how would you do such a thing? They have no interest in politics, they want to destroy the world.



Oh and Loghain at Ostagar said sending the Grey Wardens to light the beacon was fine, and they would go with that plan.

[TuringPoint]

Uh, some people just don't bring everything together when they think. At least they think, but.

[jsachun]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Considering that Alistair didn't even know how a Grey Warden kills an Archdemon and that he follows your commands like a dog despite being a Grey Warden before you, I would hesistate to consider Alistair as an "experienced Grey Warden". Loghain as a man and a military leader is far more experienced that alistair ever could be.
So losing someone like Loghain while we are expected to fight the Blight is more of a loss.

My resolve to spare Loghain was only strenghtened by Alistairs weakness and betrayal. He proved to me at that very moment that he is not a Grey Warden and thus needs to be replaced.

At least Alistair is a Warden for 6 months longer than you, Loghain is new. I agree he is more experienced as General. But that is useless to me. I want to be General myself. I prefer followers who do what I say without arguing to ones who want to command themselfes. So Imo Loghain´s experience as leader is a minus while Alistair´s doglike qualities are a plus.

I´d like someone like Loghain as a adviser, maybe, but not as follower. And not after he tried to kill meB)

 If Bioware switched Allistairs Face & Charms with Loghain, I'm sure you'd jump to his defences too.

[Costin_Razvan]

Most people who kill Loghain don't think, they lack the brain capacity to make 1+1=2. I proven right in this by the various posts around this forum.

[jsachun]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Most people who kill Loghain don't think, they lack the brain capacity to make 1+1=2. I proven right in this by the various posts around this forum.

Why? Are you feeling Allistair Or yourself?

[Sabriana]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Ok didn't read the whole thread so this may have been addressed. Some are saying Loghain conspired with the Darkspawn at Ostagar so they knew about the plan and the Tower of Ishal before the battle. That is just ridiculous. So who did Loghain make a deal with? Did he have the Hurloc high general over for some drinks so he could tell them their plans. Give me a break, you don't negotiate, or talk, or plan with Darkspawn. They are a mindless, souless Horde.

By the time the tower beacon was lit, it was too late. The King was dead. I however don't think Loghain made a deal with the Darkspawn. Mainly because how would you do such a thing? They have no interest in politics, they want to destroy the world.

Oh and Loghain at Ostagar said sending the Grey Wardens to light the beacon was fine, and they would go with that plan.

I agree. That is a very ridiculous thought, and can't be implemented at all. The one that leads the horde is the archdemon. Only through him do they become an organzied army of doom. How on earth could Loghain possibly make a deal with them. Besides here on page 9 thereabouts D. Gaider writes that the darkspawn at the tower had nothing to do with Loghain and his ill-fated decisions.

I also wonder where people read or hear that Loghain strongly opposes the plan that the GWs light the beacon? The only thing I get (and I replayed an old save to be sure) is him saying "You place too much faith in the Grey Wardens" to Cailan, and in a very calm tone of voice. Other than that, there are no objections coming from Loghain.

He does get a strange look on his face when he turns around in that scene, but only after saying "I thank the Maker that Maric isn't alive to see his own son hand over Ferelden to those who enslaved it for a century."

He might have been in cahoots with Uldred, but no one can make me believe that he planned the destruction of the tower via abominations and demons. A destroyed circle is of little use to him, after all, and he can't use dead mages/abominations in any kind of battle. Live mages, yes, and they would make a formidable ally, but not dead ones.

Modifié par Sabriana, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:09 .

[MutantSpleen]

My story turned out pretty good while having Loghain live and become a Warden. I only lost the friendship of Alistair. Which after desperately trying to speak with him and to have him listen to my point of view, after all we had been through, and just to have him totally reject me, told me he wasn't truly my friend. I think he was still hurt after I told him Leliana was my lover and this was the straw that broke his back. But he an Anora made a good King and Queen and that was more important, and the Wardens gained an excellent military commander.

[KnightofPhoenix]

To be fair, I think they are saying that Loighain allowed the darkspawn to come in via the tunnels, but without makign a deal with them or anything. Just left the tunnels open. A theory that Mr David Gaider refuted as false. The darkspawn attack was not planned or expected by anyone.



Loghain's alliance with Uldred was natural. The Chantry allowed only 7 or so mages to participate in the battle and that is frustrating. The mages are sorely needed for the war. So Loghain decided to ally with Uldred, who is not a libratarian by coincidence, in order to free the Circle from the Chantry and thus commit more mages to the war. Uldred's reliance on the demons, as an act of depseration, was not Loghain's doing or what he had planned.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Most people who DON'T kill Loghain don't think, they lack the brain capacity to make 1+1=2. I proven right in this by the various posts around this forum.

Fixed for you.

Seriously. Loghain is fluff-wise a great warrior, but so is everyone in your party. At Landsmeet, you kick his ass with any party emeber. Al can kick his ass. So why would I want that old, crazy murderer in my team?

I have a tendency to play moral characters that do a lot of planning and a lot of cost-benefit analysis. Simply put, I've yet to hear any really good reason to leave him alive...aside from the achievement and talking to him. But that's metagaming.