1429 réponses à ce sujet

[MutantSpleen]

My Alistair couldn't kick his ass, he resisted everything Alistair threw at him and cut Alistair down in no time. Leliana got one stun off on him before he chopped her in half with two swings. So no in my experience, I was the only one who could beat him.

As a side note I would not allow anyone to drink a health pot, as I thought  that would be cheesey and something the Landsmeet would never abide in a duel.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 13 janvier 2010 - 01:37 .

[Sabriana]

Careful, MutantSpleen, you'll be getting the "You didn't build your characters right/don't know how to fight", and "You obviously stink at tactics" in no time.

However, my PC and Morrigan were the only ones' capable of defeating Loghain as well. Zevran almost made it, but almost carries little weight in the world of Thedas during the Blight.

[Gimmemocha]

Sans meta-gaming, I can't imagine why you'd let Loghain live. As a Grey Warden who was on the tower, everything you know about Loghain says he's untrustworthy. So you get him to drink the blood, so what? Suddenly he's loyal? It's not magical personality-changing blood. It's not brainwashing blood.



For pity's sake, he turned his back on his king in the middle of a battle! How do you know he won't do the same thing to you, leave you swinging just when you're fighting the arch-demon? Absent metagaming, you don't.



Forget it, Loghain's outta here. I chop his head off every single time, and usually I fight him with my main so I get to do it myself.

[MutantSpleen]

Riordan who was tortured by Loghain suggested making him a Warden. Riordan was a long time friend of Duncan. More so than your character ever was. You aren't thinking like a Warden. Wardens do not hold people responsible for their past actions. The most heinous killers can be recruited to be Wardens. Wardens are not noble do-gooders, talent and skill should not be wasted when they can be used to fight the Blight.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Riordan who was tortured by Loghain suggested making him a Warden. Riordan was a long time friend of Duncan. More so than your character ever was. You aren't thinking like a Warden. Wardens do not hold people responsible for their past actions. The most heinous killers can be recruited to be Wardens. Wardens are not noble do-gooders, talent and skill should not be wasted when they can be used to fight the Blight.

Sadly, people need to feel like they are paladins in order to enjoy the game.

[Gimmemocha]

*snort* My main didn't drink Magic Brainwashing Juice when she drank the blood either. She was a grown-up with fully formed opinions before she drank the blood, and she hasn't been a Grey Warden so long that she can discount a history of lying, treachery, and betrayal just to have Loghain in her group. Not like she'd turn her back on him for one second anyway.

He dies. Every time.

Also, I'd argue that the more "Paladin" choice is opting to save him, give him a chance at redemption.

Modifié par Gimmemocha, 13 janvier 2010 - 02:09 .

[Sabriana]

Even more sadly, it seems a bit hard for some to grasp the concept of "grey". I do admit though, it's harder to think outside the box, and black and white are so much easier to label and stick into the right drawer.

Modifié par Sabriana, 13 janvier 2010 - 02:09 .

[MutantSpleen]

Leliana taught me "Everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves."

[Lotion Soronarr]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Riordan who was tortured by Loghain suggested making him a Warden. Riordan was a long time friend of Duncan. More so than your character ever was. You aren't thinking like a Warden. Wardens do not hold people responsible for their past actions. The most heinous killers can be recruited to be Wardens. Wardens are not noble do-gooders, talent and skill should not be wasted when they can be used to fight the Blight.

And you are thinking like a Warden? What does that supposed to mean anyway? Not all wardens think alike.

With that said, Rhiodan know jack s*** about Loghain. He arrived from Orlais and was immediately thrown into dungeon. Not a single character I player really trusted Rhiordans judgment anyway, since what he was proposing was insane.
Frankly methinks that sparing Loghain wasn't initally planed but was later add into the game.

Leliana taught me "Everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves."

And redemption entails joining the Grey Wardens?
It's not my job to make sure Loghain dies with a clear concience. Redemption comes from the inside - if he truly regreats what he did then he is redeemed wven if I do chop his head off.

[Sabriana]

Loghain's history is not black and white. It's very spotted and varies. He's been many things in the past, as has been discussed throughout this threat and beyond. It's highly likely that without him Ferelden would still be a large alienage for the pleasure of Orlais.
But that's alright, that's what the game is there for. To be played by each individual as she/he sees fit. My PC is capable of seeing beyond the obvious, and is in the habit of giving everyone a second chance. The Loghain character is far too complex and complicated to be shoved in a drawer and labeled "evil"

Edited to add: To state the opinion that Riordan knows nothing of Loghain as a fact is not really a good idea. Riordan and Loghain are of the same age, and come from Orlais and Ferelden respectively. It is not feasable that Riordan knows nothing of Loghain's past. Loghain was, after all, a driving force in the rebellion against Orlais.

Modifié par Sabriana, 13 janvier 2010 - 02:24 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Yes, Loghains was a great hero of Ferelden...WAS.

It's exactly from respect for the man he used to be that I opt for a quick death, rather than the shame of imprisoment or public humiliation. But a warden? NEVER!!
If he wants redemption he can go after the army with a bucket and pick up horse droppings.


EDIT: I mena, Rhiordan doesn't know everything Loghain has been up to lately.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 13 janvier 2010 - 02:41 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Gimmemocha wrote...

*snort* My main didn't drink Magic Brainwashing Juice when she drank the blood either. She was a grown-up with fully formed opinions before she drank the blood, and she hasn't been a Grey Warden so long that she can discount a history of lying, treachery, and betrayal just to have Loghain in her group. Not like she'd turn her back on him for one second anyway.

This.

People who constantly drone on about how a "real" Grey warden is supposed to react forget the fact, that:

1. The character has been a Warden for a very short time, and pretty much on their own, without the constant company, information, guidance, and advice of superiors and more senior Wardens. Thus, they know very little about just how a "proper" Grey Warden should choose.

2. You character is still a human/dwarf/elf being. The Joining does not wash away personality, hopes, fears, personal experience, memories, and emotions. You character still carries their old life with them, as Sten says, like a Turtle carries a shell. And since you are pretty much flying by wire, so to speak, without any training and indoctrination from elder Wardens, you are going to be more influenced by the pre-Warden person, than, say, someone who has been in the game longer with commerades.

3.Just how you were brought into the Wardens will also affect your overall desire to embrace their methods. Remember, not everyone said "Ya, sign me up!" You either joined, or Duncan forcibly conscripted you. You view on being a Warden will be affected by that.

So to say "A real Warden would do this or that, blah blah blah" is pretty much an statement of blindness. Real Wardens do one thing: stop blights. How that is done, is up to the judgement of a Warden to see what is necessary to stop it. The "any means necessary" is not a carte blanche to any activity, charitable or machievellian, and we see in the case of the Architect, than there are limits to just how far "any means necessary" will go. A better mission statement would be "To save humanity/elf/dwarven kind from the Blight".

Thus, recruiting or killing Loghain, again, comes down to the individual Warden. There are arguements, moral or pragmatic, both for and against recruiting him. Recruiting him does not make you more of a Warden than killing him, and it can be either a good or evil action to spare of execute him. It's all a matter of context, and the nature of the Warden making the call.

In the end, saving or killing Loghain can pretty much be anything you intend it to be, because of the very ambiguous nature of that single choice within game. And all are well within the limits of being a Grey Warden.

[MutantSpleen]

All I knew of being a Grey Warden came from Duncan. Unless you play the squeaky clean human noble origin, every other person comes from a somewhat shady past. (Not sure about the Dalish, as I have never made one) My mage defied the first enchanter and the templars and helped Jowan escape the tower. If not for Duncan I would probably have been put to death by Gregoire, or at least sent to Aeonar. In all regards I played some part in Arl Eamon's poisoning.



Duncan said that the Grey Wardens do not judge the past of others. Leliana through my play helped me realize that more. So that's why I gave Loghain a chance to redeem himself. I believe Duncan would have too.

[Costin_Razvan]

I will ask this: Who the **** are you all, that judge Loghain, to think you can kill him? Despite your stupid and childish assumption, HE FREED FERELDAN, that might not mean much to you but a man who gave everything he held dear and loved to save a country ( His father, his love, his very soul ) deserves the utmost respect. When you are even 1% in reality of a guy like Loghain then you might just able to lick his shoes. What he did afterward doesn't matter, because he did it because he thought it was best for his country, he didn't want a civil war.

That was started ( mostly ) by banns who didn't want a commoner in power. Don't ever assume for a second that Eamon is a honorable and just person ( as some would claim he is ) he is just a politician as Bhelen and Anora are.

As for the elves, let me quote: This is war, did you think it would be like the stories with knights in shining armor, fighting honorably? War is cruel, anyone who fought along side Maric knows this, and in it there no such things as innocence. Only the living and the dead, and the degrees of guilt both bear.

Also, Loghain states himself that he never thought he would dispose of Anora as Queen, in fact she still was Queen ( the fact the Royal Guard fight by your side at the landsmeet if you ally her proves this )

But hey its sure easy to judge people and throw death sentences in a game! It might be a game, but the choices you make are done by you, personally, if killing a man in cold means nothing to you, then perhaps you might want to check a psychiatrist.

Anyway, enough with my arguments. I will wait until Return to Ostagar is released, then you anti-Loghain fools will be in quite for a surprise.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 13 janvier 2010 - 03:40 .

[robertthebard]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I will ask this: Who the **** are you all, that judge Loghain, to think you can kill him? Despite your stupid and childish assumption, HE FREED FERELDAN, that might not mean much to you but a man who gave everything he held dear and loved to save a country ( His father, his love, his very soul ) deserves the utmost respect. When you are even 1% in reality of a guy like Loghain then you might just able to lick his shoes. What he did afterward doesn't matter, because he did it because he thought it was best for his country, he didn't want a civil war.

That was started ( mostly ) by banns who didn't want a commoner in power. Don't ever assume for a second that Eamon is a honorable and just person ( as some would claim he is ) he is just a politician as Bhelen and Anora are.

As for the elves, let me quote: This is war, did you think it would be like the stories with knights in shining armor, fighting honorably? War is cruel, anyone who fought along side Maric knows this, and in it there no such things as innocence. Only the living and the dead, and the degrees of guilt both bear.

Also, Loghain states himself that he never thought he would dispose of Anora as Queen, in fact she still was Queen ( the fact the Royal Guard fight by your side at the landsmeet if you ally her proves this )

But hey its sure easy to judge people and throw death sentences in a game! It might be a game, but the choices you make are done by you, personally, if killing a man in cold means nothing to you, then perhaps you might want to check a psychiatrist.

Anyway, enough with my arguments. I will wait until Return to Ostagar is released, then you anti-Loghain fools will be in quite for a surprise.

I can justify killing Loghain simply because he tried to kill me.  I can use the same logic with Harrowmont and Bhelen in the dwarf noble origin.  However, as a dwarf noble, I can choose to spare Loghain, and make Bhelen King, sit back, for the very same reasons.  Excuse me now, I do indeed have to get ready for my therapy session.

[Costin_Razvan]

Revenge is it? Interesting, as most who would be anti-Loghain would cling to some ethical issues with what the man did. Revenge, despite the reasons, is in the end a very immoral choice.

[Sabriana]

When my HN PC insisted that she should visit vengeance on Howe to Duncan, he slapped her down quickly, stating that "Defeating the Blight supersedes everything. Even vengeance." Is it so wrong of my HN to take this to heart?

After all, there are only a few tidbits of info she has to go on, but the stated above is definitely one of them, and a fact, mentioned in the game. At Ostagar. Have your HN say to Duncan "But I have to find Fergus", and you'll see.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Duncan: "I know that the blight must be defeated one way or the other. That's as far as my opinion goes". And he said that when talkign about blood magic and demons.
Seeing that Duncan is the best example of how a Grey Warden should be that we know of so far, then yes we can say what a Grey Warden would or should do. A Grey Warden is only interested in defeating the Blight. Anything else is secondary or even inconsequential. And the Grey Wardens cut off all family relations because being a Grey Warden presicely means having a new life.

Now in practise, that's obviously not the case. But we can know to a certain degree what a Grey Warden would do. A Grey Warden would not kill a potential asset. A Grey Warden would kill only obstacles. Hence why Riordan, a more experienced Grey Warden, was the one who suggested that we make Loghain a Warden in the first place. And this has nothing to do with redemption. This is for practical Warden considerations.
 
But once again, and as Mr Gaider said. It will depend on the player and what role you are RPing. My Human Noble PC thought like a practical Grey Warden but also like an ambitious machiavellian politician (the former more than the later), so he decided to spare Loghain. My Dwarven Noble is purely motivated my politics, so Loghain has to die.  My Elven mage was someqhat of an idealist who couldn't refuse his friend's request, as dumb as it was.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 janvier 2010 - 04:34 .

[Sabriana]

Also, for all those who think that Grey Wardens are white knights in shining armor, talk to Gilmore in the HN origin. He tells my PC that the GWs burned down villages so they couldn't fall into darkspawn hands.

My very shocked PC asked Gilmore about the civilians in those villages, and how could it be that the GWs killed those people setting the villages afire.

Gilmore's answer? "The Blight must be stopped, even if it costs innocent lives." He goes on to explain that the GWs rather accept the death of the few to aid the many and to stop the Blight.

[Gimmemocha]

My HN had to be drafted into the Grey Wardens, forcing Duncan to use the Right of Conscription on her. And don't think she was happy about it, either. She did eventually grow up along the way and learn to see stopping the blight as part of her duty as a Cousland, but never accustomed herself to thinking of herself as a Grey Warden first and a Cousland second. She's the first of my playthroughs who went for Beheln because she believed that ruling families should continue to rule, and she put Alistair on the throne too (married him to Anora).



She also killed Loghain as a regicide, and went on to stop the Blight just fine without him. Alistair is a proven warrior, much more suitable than Loghain. She didn't need a general who had a history of abandoning the field of battle when things looked bad, she needed fighters she could trust.

[Sarethus]

Sabriana wrote...

When my HN PC insisted that she should visit vengeance on Howe to Duncan, he slapped her down quickly, stating that "Defeating the Blight supersedes everything. Even vengeance." Is it so wrong of my HN to take this to heart?

After all, there are only a few tidbits of info she has to go on, but the stated above is definitely one of them, and a fact, mentioned in the game. At Ostagar. Have your HN say to Duncan "But I have to find Fergus", and you'll see.

True but some what incomplete. Just because you should do practically anything necessary to defeat a blight does not mean that everything you do is necessary.

If defeating the blight requires jumping in the sack with Flemeth in her dragon shape then so be it but if the blight can be defeated without doing so (while it may make it easier) then it's up to the Grey Warden. 

As far as my PC was concerned, I had no need of Loghain & was doing fine by myself. Maybe it would have made it easier but it might not and quite frankly Loghain alive was not a necessity to me. 

[Sabriana]

Well, my HN was reluctant to leave with Duncan, and resented her father being quasi-blackmailed into agreeing that she will become a Grey Warden. However, she also promised her father to fight for Ferelden and she also promised to make her mark in the world. She was going to keep that promise, come hell or high water.

It's really all in the way you play it, and how you interpret conversations. My HN got the first inkling that all was not well with Alistair at Flemeth's hut.

My PC says something like "We have to stop this Blight somehow." To which Alistair answers promptly "We have to bring Loghain to justice." Right then and there he puts vengeance ahead of the Blight, doing just the opposite to what Duncan told my HN PC at Ostagar.

Also very telling to my PC was Flemeth's line "Do you think he's the first king to take the throne that way? Grow up, boy."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarethus wrote...
True but some what incomplete. Just because you should do practically anything necessary to defeat a blight does not mean that everything you do is necessary.

If defeating the blight requires jumping in the sack with Flemeth in her dragon shape then so be it but if the blight can be defeated without doing so (while it may make it easier) then it's up to the Grey Warden. 

As far as my PC was concerned, I had no need of Loghain & was doing fine by myself. Maybe it would have made it easier but it might not and quite frankly Loghain alive was not a necessity to me. 

An extra Grey Warden is needed because only Grey Wardens can kill an Archdemon. That's what Riordan wanted. That's until the wimp Alistair started complaining.
So it basically came to choosing either Alistair or Loghain. And I am quite surprised that Riordan didn't pimp slap Alistar and made him stfu. I know that's what I would have done.

[Klystron]

I approached this differently:

If you lose the vote at Landsmeet, Loghain orders your immediate execution.  This is unnecessary, he no longer needs to fear any information you may have about the events at Ostagar.  He is acting purely out of spite.  Further, you know that his actions are dooming Ferelden to being overrun by the darkspawn. 

From what I've seen of Loghain I would guess that even his great acts in fighting the Orlesians were simply because he hated them, not out of any higher sense of duty to Ferelden.  I haven't read the books, so correct me if I'm wrong on that one.  He seems the sort of general that is still fighting the last war because he can't let go of the hatred that fueled his drive to greatness. 

Anyway, on the playthrough when I lost Landsmeet, killing him seemed too easy.  I made him do the Joining so he would realize how terribly he'd screwed up. 

[eschilde]

@Klystron
I don't believe Loghain is only ordering your execution out of spite.. it's pragmatic, the same reason Bhelen orders Harrowmont executed, or Anora orders Alistair executed, given the same situation. The fact remains that you have caused him an equal (or greater) amount of trouble as he has caused you. Both of you have perfectly legitimate reasons to want the other one dead. Not to mention, Loghain doesn't have an alternate sentence, so to speak. There is no alternative to your death, whereas for him being conscripted into the GWs is an option.

I agree with you when you say he's still fighting the last war, but I think his hatred of Orlais and his sense of duty to Fereldan are one and the same (in his eyes). He does love Fereldan, but it's that combined with his Orlesian paranoia that skews his judgment. It's not an unreasonable view, considering who he is. (I also have not read the books, but on recruiting him you get a little bit of insight into his character.)

On what a Grey Warden is. The fact is, the situation the PC is in is pretty unique. You are a new recruit suddenly given a lot of responsibilities you normally wouldn't have. The only real GW you get a chance to talk to through most of the game is Duncan--Riordan shows up so late, he has practically no chance to really impact your ideas on how a GW gets the job done. That being the case, there is no 'wrong' way to play your GW.

It's a little silly and irrelevant to point at Duncan and say, well, he would have done this! or that! because he's kinda dead. Choosing to spare Loghain, or not, is the player's choice. There is no wrong answer here. My impression was this thread was building a case for sparing (or not sparing) Loghain without having to bring that into the argument.

Modifié par eschilde, 13 janvier 2010 - 05:23 .