1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

Spite? If he doesn't kill you the Civil War continues, if he does its over. He can't afford that.



As for his hatred of Orlais, he doesn't have it. If he had, he would have invaded when he was reagent to Cailan.



Also in the books he gives up Rowan to Maric, cause he believes it would best for Fereldan. For someone to just simply give away the one he truly loves, means that he is that willing to serve his country.

[KnightofPhoenix]

eschilde wrote...
On what a Grey Warden is. The fact is, the situation the PC is in is pretty unique. You are a new recruit suddenly given a lot of responsibilities you normally wouldn't have. The only real GW you get a chance to talk to through most of the game is Duncan--Riordan shows up so late, he has practically no chance to really impact your ideas on how a GW gets the job done. That being the case, there is no 'wrong' way to play your GW.

It's a little silly and irrelevant to point at Duncan and say, well, he would have done this! or that! because he's kinda dead. Choosing to spare Loghain, or not, is the player's choice. There is no wrong answer here. My impression was this thread was building a case for sparing (or not sparing) Loghain without having to bring that into the argument.

I think that argument started when people started claiming that being a Grey Warden is an honor and blah blah blah. Basically what Alistair was whining about. So naturally, this is the counter-argument.

Obviously the PC is an individual before he is a Grey Warden. And he can choose whatever. I don't see why people from any side want to impose what they did as the best thing. Both choices are good enough, along with their different motivations and intentions. 

The option of sparing or killing Loghain is not really the subject of this thread. It's rather to denounce and refute certain prejudices and accusations against Loghain. And I believe that was done thanks to the clarifications done by Mr. Gaider.

[Vicious]

RtO has additional light to shed on Ostagar. I don't think anyone can blame Loghain for letting Cailan die, anymore. I'm surprised he didn't just kill him with his bare hands.

[Sarethus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarethus wrote...
True but some what incomplete. Just because you should do practically anything necessary to defeat a blight does not mean that everything you do is necessary.

If defeating the blight requires jumping in the sack with Flemeth in her dragon shape then so be it but if the blight can be defeated without doing so (while it may make it easier) then it's up to the Grey Warden. 

As far as my PC was concerned, I had no need of Loghain & was doing fine by myself. Maybe it would have made it easier but it might not and quite frankly Loghain alive was not a necessity to me. 

An extra Grey Warden is needed because only Grey Wardens can kill an Archdemon. That's what Riordan wanted. That's until the wimp Alistair started complaining.
So it basically came to choosing either Alistair or Loghain. And I am quite surprised that Riordan didn't pimp slap Alistar and made him stfu. I know that's what I would have done.

Problem is that my character and Alistair for that matter don't know that. As far my character is concerned Riordan just said that Loghain may be useful as a grey warden without explaining why and I end up considering all that I and my companions have accomplished so far and go...Nahhhh!..

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarethus wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarethus wrote...
True but some what incomplete. Just because you should do practically anything necessary to defeat a blight does not mean that everything you do is necessary.

If defeating the blight requires jumping in the sack with Flemeth in her dragon shape then so be it but if the blight can be defeated without doing so (while it may make it easier) then it's up to the Grey Warden. 

As far as my PC was concerned, I had no need of Loghain & was doing fine by myself. Maybe it would have made it easier but it might not and quite frankly Loghain alive was not a necessity to me. 

An extra Grey Warden is needed because only Grey Wardens can kill an Archdemon. That's what Riordan wanted. That's until the wimp Alistair started complaining.
So it basically came to choosing either Alistair or Loghain. And I am quite surprised that Riordan didn't pimp slap Alistar and made him stfu. I know that's what I would have done.

Problem is that my character and Alistair for that matter don't know that. As far my character is concerned Riordan just said that Loghain may be useful as a grey warden without explaining why and I end up considering all that I and my companions have accomplished so far and go...Nahhhh!..

I agree, Riordan screwed up. He should have taken both the PC and Alistair to the corner and explained why he wants us to do this. If he wasn't such a badass, I would call him an idiot.

[Sabriana]

Yes, I would've welcomed that too, but the PC has to make a decision on the spot. She doesn't have the luxury of quizzing Riordan, and she should have.

However, somewhere in the dialogues Riordan apologizes to the GWs about not telling them earlier what kind of sacrifice is needed to slay the archdemon. He simply worked on the premise that Duncan had told them about it.

So at the Landsmeet Riordan works from the premise that the other two Grey Wardens know about the truth. He simply thinks that my PC and Alistair are aware of the sacrifice that has to be made.

Modifié par Sabriana, 13 janvier 2010 - 06:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea I forgot that he didn't know that we didn't know.

[eschilde]

@KnightofPhoenix

Ah, yeah, you're right, it is about dispelling the idea that Loghain is a sociopathic maniac who planned everything bad that happened in DA. >.> In my mind that almost translates to the same thing ^^

I'm pretty sure Riordan thought you knew about the sacrifice (although why he wouldn't thwap Alistair for being a moron when he flipped out, I don't know..)

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Duncan: "I know that the blight must be defeated one way or the other. That's as far as my opinion goes". And he said that when talkign about blood magic and demons.
Seeing that Duncan is the best example of how a Grey Warden should be that we know of so far, then yes we can say what a Grey Warden would or should do. A Grey Warden is only interested in defeating the Blight. Anything else is secondary or even inconsequential. And the Grey Wardens cut off all family relations because being a Grey Warden presicely means having a new life.

Now in practise, that's obviously not the case. But we can know to a certain degree what a Grey Warden would do. A Grey Warden would not kill a potential asset. A Grey Warden would kill only obstacles. Hence why Riordan, a more experienced Grey Warden, was the one who suggested that we make Loghain a Warden in the first place. And this has nothing to do with redemption. This is for practical Warden considerations.
 
But once again, and as Mr Gaider said. It will depend on the player and what role you are RPing. My Human Noble PC thought like a practical Grey Warden but also like an ambitious machiavellian politician (the former more than the later), so he decided to spare Loghain. My Dwarven Noble is purely motivated my politics, so Loghain has to die.  My Elven mage was someqhat of an idealist who couldn't refuse his friend's request, as dumb as it was.

Yes, I am aware of what, in theory, is done. Practice, however, is a completely different bird, and, in the case of someone who has been conscripted against their own personal choice, it is not so black and white.

Loghain as an asset, however, depends solely on how your character views it. Riordan might think Loghain an asset. Riordan, however, has been locked up in a dungeon for how long, and thus, does not have the same experience and picture the Warden does. Thus, his opinion on the matter, despite being a senior Warden, is not a deciding factor, only a suggestion.

Loghain can be argued as an asset, or a liability, equally. I'm sure, that in normal times, when Wardens are recruiting, it is up to the individual Warden, as to who is makes a potentially good recruit, and who wouldn't. I think skill is not the only factor in choosing a recruit. More criteria, I think, are used.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I agree, Riordan screwed up. He should have taken both the PC and Alistair to the corner and explained why he wants us to do this. If he wasn't such a badass, I would call him an idiot.

This too. There should have been a "time out, Wardens, we need to talk" bit so that Riordan could explain exactly what he was thinking. A PC who has spent the game tiem years on the run and fighting off Loghain, after all, would probably want a damned good reason on why they should spare Loghain and make him a Warden. Simply "he's useful" is a pretty poor explaination. I think the developers should have added this bit, so you have a more reasonable platform from which to decide.

[Archonsg]

Poor, poor Alistair. He was right you know, no one really pays him any real attention. Everyone fixates on his hatred for Loghain, his whininess and his hissy fit that I feel that most miss out on one very good point he made in his refusal to accept Loghain in as a Grey Warden. That the joining is not a form of capital punishment.
Allow me to explain my view on why on all but one situation I allowed Loghain to live and thus join as a Grey Warden.

Now in all my play-throughs, which I truly role play their decisions and not Meta-game.
Unless I am playing a character that is out for his own benefit, screw the grey wardens and everyone else who gets in his (it has to be human noble male) way Loghain dies. Why?

Well, first off If I want to marry Anora and thus eventually rule Fereldan, and here's the thing, *not* care a whit about what happens to the wardens, I have to allow Loghain to live as I am pretty sure that Anora would not marry the man who got her father killed whether directly by my hand or by Alistiar's.
End of story.
Loghain lives, my PC will be dismayed that Alistair leaves, but meh... I get to bed Anora and for the moment be prince consort and since I'll need time to insinuate myself into court and build my power base, I'll live with that for now. I'll deal with Anora later, with maxed out herbalism and poisons, I am sure I'll be able to find a way to make her death look like she caught something viral. Of course that would mean her personal handmaids and those closest to her would also have to die, and I'll need to find an excuse to leave the palace and be away from her while having my men keep careful watch and keep as current as possible, info on who comes into contact with Anora but it’s doable. It'll also give me the chance to get rid of people who would be more "loyal" to Anora then to me. Could eventually mean the death of half the court, but hey, that's what happens when an "untraceable infection" happens. Of course the antidote will be administered to those I want to keep around to keep them alive but they will still be very sick till I return back with a cure but alas, too late to save my beloved wife.

Now, as to the reason why I would NOT want to bring Loghain in as a Grey Warden.
Before I say anything else, to those who say Wardens aren't supposed to be involved in politics, my Political Neutrality went out the window the moment I had to choose between Bhelen and Harrowmont and when the choice of whom gets to sit on the Fereldan throne is my decision to make. I cannot see how you can be "politically neutral" when you are essentially a King Maker for not just one, but two nations. Like it or not, you now have clout and that equates political power as Arl Eamon recognises.

I wonder how many of you noticed that Rioden defers to you at the landsmeet. I mean, think about it, he is senior Warden, he's NOT Alistair and by rights he could have ordered you to take Loghain in. Why didn't he? Because he like all those present, recognised that you are now *the* Warden Commander in Fereldan. That means that now your choices, whatever they are, not only are made with consideration in terms of ending the blight, you have to take into consideration what those choices will mean for the future of the Grey Wardens in Fereldan.

So think again on what Alistair said about the joining not being a form of capital punishment.
If you allow Loghain to take the rite of joining as a form of punishment, you open doors that might mean a lot of trouble for you later as Warden Commander.
Do note that I am not against murderers, thieves, or anyone with a criminal background, with the exception of rapists, joining the order but I will allow such to do so if I, that is, as Warden Commander gets choose who joins, and if only if they would join willingly. My choice and my choice will depend on if that the person I chose will be more a benefit to the wardens then a liability.
If I allow the door that the joining is to be treated as capital punishment to be opened, then what is to stop those in power to force prisoners facing the death sentence to take the joining instead? After all, in the eyes of most governments dealing with criminals, this would kill two birds with one stone would it not? IF these prisoners die, justice is served, if they don't, well they are grey wardens now and they would serve a better purpose as grey wardens and besides, they are the grey wardens' problem now.  Let them house, feed and heaven forbid, control the degenerates that they don’t want in their own lands.

The choice of letting Loghain join the wardens does indeed have political and social consequences.
This is why in all but one situation I see Loghain as a Liability to the warden cause. Meta gaming aside I do not know at the time of the landsmeet that a warden must die, but even if I did, I will still make the choice *not* to allow Loghain to take the joining as I see this course of action to be detrimental to the Grey Wardens’ future becuase honestly, as Warden Commander, do you really want to command and see your organisation be seen as a cess pit where murderers, rapists and other non-desireables be forced into service as "Once you are a grey warden it does not matter what you did in the past?"

Modifié par Archonsg, 13 janvier 2010 - 06:33 .

[MutantSpleen]

All the things you mention are already the way the Grey Wardens work. They do take the worst of the worst IF their skills are exceptional. If these recruits get out of line the Wardens police thier own. If you are up to the job you run the risk of being Conscripted.



My character assisted a blood-mage to escape the Circle of Magi. I eventually became a maleficar myself, a decision that still haunts her but was done at the time because she felt she needed every advantage to beat the Blight.

[Archonsg]

MutantSpleen wrote...

All the things you mention are already the way the Grey Wardens work. They do take the worst of the worst IF their skills are exceptional. If these recruits get out of line the Wardens police thier own. If you are up to the job you run the risk of being Conscripted.

My character assisted a blood-mage to escape the Circle of Magi. I eventually became a maleficar myself, a decision that still haunts her but was done at the time because she felt she needed every advantage to beat the Blight.

Not really.
What I meant is that in the past there was always someone who chooses whom to join the grey wardens, and that choice is not seen as a form of punisment for the one chosen. Think about it, in all instances Duncan "saves" the PC in one form or another. You are not forced to be a grey warden as a form of capital punishment.
My take on this, is that once you accept Loghain and use the Rite of Joining as a form of capital punishment, you open the door for others to FORCE all those who should by rights face death to take the rite of joining and the recruits you get are not of your choice.

Modifié par Archonsg, 13 janvier 2010 - 07:16 .

[MutantSpleen]

I did not see it as a form of capital punishment. Whoever said that? I saw it as giving someone a second chance to redeem themselves. Grey Wardens still have the final say in who is chosen, if the person has no worthy skills of merit they would not be a candidate for the joining. Why would recruiting Loghain change that?

[Sabriana]

No, not really here either. My HN did not want to join the GWs but she wanted to stay and fight for her parents and her home. I know it would mean 'game over', but she didn't want to join the Grey Wardens. However, she had little choice. She never had the option to tell Duncan to get his butt out of there and leave them alone.

However, Duncan more or less blackmailed her father into it, and she chose to fulfill her dying father's last wish. She was definitely not a happy camper, to say the least.

[Archonsg]

Because both Rioden and Anora mentions it as such. "If he dies, justice is done, if he lives you have another warden." Recruiting Loghain needs careful consideration since whatever his motives are, he did attempt to have any surviving wardens killed failing only with you and by association, Alistair. You have already sentenced him to death, but Rioden steps in to suggest a way to gain another warden. He of course did not care or perhaps did not realise what the consequence of recruiting Loghain would be.

You as the PC, as Fereldan's Warden Commander on the other hand is the one to make that final choice.

My reasoning for not accepting Loghain isn't because I dislike him or want him dead. (well maybe a little) I just see it from a perspective that from my point of view, once I allow the rite of joining to be seen as a form of punisment, it just makes sense to force those facing capital punishment to take the rite.

Does that make sense to you?

[Archonsg]

*edit double post*
This forum needs a "Delete post" button

Modifié par Archonsg, 13 janvier 2010 - 07:51 .

[Sabriana]

I might be spoiled through knowledge from the books, but my impression is that once Loghain swears an oath, he will stick to it no matter what. He did that already, you know. He swore an oath to never let Ferelden fall to another nation, no matter what, and that's what he thinks he is doing.



It's not a punishment per se, but a manner of using such a devoted, and highly capable warrior to do what is necessary. You see, my PC thinks that stopping the Blight is the only thing to do at the moment. Meting out justice can come later. Everything can come later. Because if the Blight is not stopped by any means necessary, there will never be a later. At least not for Ferelden.

She, of course, has no idea that Alistair will betray and desert his home-land if denied his vengeance. She also doesn't know that Riordan knows what it will take to kill off the archdemon.

classical tragedy material, that is. Riordan thinks that my PC and Alistair know that a GW must die, but they simply don't.

I'm sorry, but I can't forget that without Loghain Ferelden would still be in the stranglehold of Orlais. He starts out with the best of intentions, but they go horribly, horribly wrong, and they hurt many.

[Gimmemocha]

As my boyfriend points out, sooner or later the decision really boils down to Loghain or Alistair. Once Ali threatens to walk, you won't have a net gain in the number of Grey Wardens, so it depends on your view of quality. Do you pick the experienced general who's an Orlesian war hero yet who walked off the field and left King Cailan to die, or do you pick the less-experienced Alistair who's been your stalwart companion and is Cailan's only (known) living blood relative?



I also note that these sorts of choices are what elevated this game above others I've played.

[Sabriana]

Well, you see Gimmemocha, we don't really know if he left Cailan to die. The signal was almost certainly lit too late seeing how my PC and company had to fight their way through the tower. Alistair even mentions that they missed Cailan's signal.



The reason I let Loghain live in one of my play-throughs is because he's more mature, more able to put personal matters aside. Alistair seems incapable of that.

But no matter what, it's alll in the way you role play. It's your business, and no one elses, really. The way I play it is that seeing that Alistair storms off betraying and abandoning Ferelden because his thirst for personal vengeance wasn't indulged, means that I'd rather have a mature and able fighter than such a fickle one who seems to never have grasped the true meaning of 'Grey Warden."

It is up to the individual player, and that's entirely a good thing.

[Archonsg]

I am not sure but i am pretty sure I have mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, that there is reall no "wrong" choice. Each and every player can and has his or her preference. I just posted my reasoning and understanding of the situation at time of the landsmeet and how I felt about that choice that I had to make.



The one other note that I should have mentioned is that even if I am playing the more machaviellian character, I would *still* choose Alistair simply because Alistair as king would make more sense then either Anora or leaving Loghain alive. Having Alistair on the throne would mean you'd have a warden sympathiser at the very least, a very strong suppporter and friend at best. While Anora at best would do no more then "repay" a debt and Loghain, while he might still be a "great hero" he has shown that he isn't trustworthy and has his judgement clouded by his hatred of Orlai. The very people (Orlesian wardens) whom the PC will need help from if they survive the fight against the blight. Why would I want to take the risk of having Loghain go bonkers on me again?



I can't remember exactly what was said (gotta replay to that point as I lost my save games due to a HDD wipe) but in one of my games with a hardened Alistair if my memory is right, It seemed that he mentioned dealing with Anora *if* he survives the Archdemon after both Eamon and my PC adviced him to take off Anora's head since she won't swear fealty, which implies Alistair does execute her when he eventually gets around to dealing with her. (yay!)

[KnightofPhoenix]

If you are a human noble, you can become king and thus not need Alistair at all. Infact, he would be more of a nuissance (has a stronger blood claim than you). But my machiavellian dwarf wants Alistair on the throne because Alistair is an idiot. So he can be his chancellor and thus rule. IT owuldn't be in his interest to have either Anora or Loghain live.

[robertthebard]

Gimmemocha wrote...

As my boyfriend points out, sooner or later the decision really boils down to Loghain or Alistair. Once Ali threatens to walk, you won't have a net gain in the number of Grey Wardens, so it depends on your view of quality. Do you pick the experienced general who's an Orlesian war hero yet who walked off the field and left King Cailan to die, or do you pick the less-experienced Alistair who's been your stalwart companion and is Cailan's only (known) living blood relative?

I also note that these sorts of choices are what elevated this game above others I've played.

Here's the problem, in my current HN game, Alistair is a stalwart companion of the camp fire.  He's been there since Lothering, where I picked up Leliana.  HN is a sword and board warrior, and I don't need two tanks.  So, since I can't just send Alistair out with the group to accomplish our missions, one of us has to stay in camp.  Alistair wins/loses, depending on how you look at it.  He will be instrumental in making food that is barely recognizeable.  For all of that, however, I may just try to make him King with Anora, and spare Loghain.  If he won't rule with Anora, then I guess he'll either run off to get drunk, or serve as an example to any noble that decides to seize the throne later, as his blood is still drying on the floor of the Landsmeet.  Either way, I'm going to need someone to rebuild the GW's, and frankly, from what I know of Alistair's leadership skills, Loghain is the better choice.  I plan on being dead.

[Archonsg]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you are a human noble, you can become king and thus not need Alistair at all. Infact, he would be more of a nuissance (has a stronger blood claim than you). But my machiavellian dwarf wants Alistair on the throne because Alistair is an idiot. So he can be his chancellor and thus rule. IT owuldn't be in his interest to have either Anora or Loghain live.

Well not really king as Anora insists that you are only a "prince consort". The epilouge also stats that Anora fights with you for control of power, thus you will have to deal with her later in some form. (read my above post...the really long one ) 
That is why I will only spare Loghain if I play as a human noble male bent on power and the hell with everyone else.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Archonsg wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you are a human noble, you can become king and thus not need Alistair at all. Infact, he would be more of a nuissance (has a stronger blood claim than you). But my machiavellian dwarf wants Alistair on the throne because Alistair is an idiot. So he can be his chancellor and thus rule. IT owuldn't be in his interest to have either Anora or Loghain live.

Well not really king as Anora insists that you are only a "prince consort". The epilouge also stats that Anora fights with you for control of power, thus you will have to deal with her later in some form. (read my above post...the really long one ) 
That is why I will only spare Loghain if I play as a human noble male bent on power and the hell with everyone else.

It's actually King consort and she, from what I understood, crowns the PC king after the battle.
But even still, your position is still strong as both a figurehead and as the head of the army. And Anora does not necessarily fight with you. The epilogue says that Anora and the PC can bring a Golden age if they don't fight each other. So while it is possible to be at odds with her, it is not necessary.
So while Anora can deal with the bureaucratic elements of the State, my PC is the figurehead and the leader of the army and the leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden. That's not too mention his other forms of influence (Templars, Chantry, Bhelen). So it would not be in Anora's interest to obstruct the recreation of the Grey Wardens. Not while her father is also working hard to rebuild them.

So my PC's position is as good, if not better, than Alistair being King. So he doesn't need Alistair at all.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 janvier 2010 - 08:38 .