1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Klystron]

Sabriana wrote...

I might be spoiled through knowledge from the books, but my impression is that once Loghain swears an oath, he will stick to it no matter what. He did that already, you know. He swore an oath to never let Ferelden fall to another nation, no matter what, and that's what he thinks he is doing.
...
.

That raises an interesting point.  Not having read the books, Loghain's honor scarcely comes across.  A HN character (though quite young) might know something about his heroism, but a commoner dwarf or Dalish elf would get his/her first glimpse of Loghain in the meeting at Ostagar, where Loghain absolutely refuses to addresss Cailan by his proper title and can't stop insulting him even when ordered to ... and things go downhill from there.

As a player we see Loghain's pained facial expressions when forced to make unpleasant choices, but the Warden doesn't.  Everything the Warden sees/hears of Loghain suggests a power-mad weasel. 

[Sabriana]

Also, you don't (as a PC) have to kill Alistair off when choosing Loghain, even though he runs off and betrays the country. He can still become king ruling with Anora.

As I said (repeatedly), Alistair does not have to die, but in my games he does should I choose to heed Riordan's advise. A deserter and betrayer has no place on the throne, in my opinion.

But true, so true. It all depends on the individual. All thoughts are valid in that regard. It should be played the way that the individual gamer feels satisfied with the outcome.

[Sabriana]

Klystron wrote...
That raises an interesting point.  Not having read the books, Loghain's honor scarcely comes across.  A HN character (though quite young) might know something about his heroism, but a commoner dwarf or Dalish elf would get his/her first glimpse of Loghain in the meeting at Ostagar, where Loghain absolutely refuses to addresss Cailan by his proper title and can't stop insulting him even when ordered to ... and things go downhill from there.

As a player we see Loghain's pained facial expressions when forced to make unpleasant choices, but the Warden doesn't.  Everything the Warden sees/hears of Loghain suggests a power-mad weasel. 

That is a very good observation. Yes, the HN would know, the City Elf might know, but the Dalish and the Dwarves mcould possibly not know that.

It is very interesting to watch Loghain's facial expressions. He does loathe to use an assassin. He sits on that throne looking like he would rather like to reverse things. But the snowball has turned into an avalanche, and being the person he is, he will roll with the punches.

[Archonsg]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you are a human noble, you can become king and thus not need Alistair at all. Infact, he would be more of a nuissance (has a stronger blood claim than you). But my machiavellian dwarf wants Alistair on the throne because Alistair is an idiot. So he can be his chancellor and thus rule. IT owuldn't be in his interest to have either Anora or Loghain live.

Well not really king as Anora insists that you are only a "prince consort". The epilouge also stats that Anora fights with you for control of power, thus you will have to deal with her later in some form. (read my above post...the really long one ) 
That is why I will only spare Loghain if I play as a human noble male bent on power and the hell with everyone else.

It's actually King consort and she, from what I understood, crowns the PC king after the battle.
But even still, your position is still strong as both a figurehead and as the head of the army. And Anora does not necessarily fight with you. The epilogue says that Anora and the PC can bring a Golden age if they don't fight each other. So while it is possible to be at odds with her, it is not necessary.
So while Anora can deal with the bureaucratic elements of the State, my PC is the figurehead and the leader of the army and the leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden. That's not too mention his other forms of influence (Templars, Chantry, Bhelen). So it would not be in Anora's interest to obstruct the recreation of the Grey Wardens. Not while her father is also working hard to rebuild them.

So my PC's position is as good, if not better, than Alistair being King. So he doesn't need Alistair at all.  

Ahh I see your point.
Hmnss. I guess if I played that way it would make sense.
Though, I am always best buds with Alistair...
Besides, as I posted above, I do see why Alistair do not want to be in the same space as Loghain, and I see it from a perspective other then his need for revenge / vengance / justice (depending on how you want to see it) as well as to the benefit of not only myself but to the wardens in the long run. While it is true that I might be king if I so choose to make it so, it only happens if I play a character who has no concern what happens to the wardens as a whole and as someone who only cares for his own benefit and power.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Archonsg wrote...
Ahh I see your point.
Hmnss. I guess if I played that way it would make sense.
Though, I am always best buds with Alistair...
Besides, as I posted above, I do see why Alistair do not want to be in the same space as Loghain, and I see it from a perspective other then his need for revenge / vengance / justice (depending on how you want to see it) as well as to the benefit of not only myself but to the wardens in the long run. While it is true that I might be king if I so choose to make it so, it only happens if I play a character who has no concern what happens to the wardens as a whole and as someone who only cares for his own benefit and power.

Well my PC became king / king-consort, while still having the interests of the Grey Wardens at heart. Infact, part of his reasoning was, as King consort, he will still remain largely a figurehead, which is good for a Warden. The Wardens have bad history with politics, especialyl in Ferelden. So the last thing we need, imo, is to overthrow the Queen and replace her with a Warden. The best option is that either she marries Alistair or she marries the human noble. And seeing how my PC is far more intelligent than Alistair, I would say it's best to have him as King consort. And he has Loghain with him in order to supervise the rebuilding of the Wardens.
He is not doing this out of purely selfish reasons. Ambition did play a part yes. But he was also interested in both the Wardens and Ferelden.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 13 janvier 2010 - 08:53 .

[MutantSpleen]

I didn't have a lot of these considerations as a mage. As a mage is not allowed to hold any royal title. So for me I ended up with Alistair and Anora as king and queen and Loghain as my Warden recruiter. I knew Alistair would be taken out of the picture by becoming king, he could only be a Warden part time if at all. So I needed a replacement. I could not think of a better choice than the country's greatest general. Plus I won the eternal gratitude of Anora, and I freed the mages from Chantry rule. Alistair hates me now but maybe one day he will forgive me and see things from my perspective.

[Xandurpein]

Archonsg wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you are a human noble, you can become king and thus not need Alistair at all. Infact, he would be more of a nuissance (has a stronger blood claim than you). But my machiavellian dwarf wants Alistair on the throne because Alistair is an idiot. So he can be his chancellor and thus rule. IT owuldn't be in his interest to have either Anora or Loghain live.

Well not really king as Anora insists that you are only a "prince consort". The epilouge also stats that Anora fights with you for control of power, thus you will have to deal with her later in some form. (read my above post...the really long one ) 
That is why I will only spare Loghain if I play as a human noble male bent on power and the hell with everyone else.

It's actually King consort and she, from what I understood, crowns the PC king after the battle.
But even still, your position is still strong as both a figurehead and as the head of the army. And Anora does not necessarily fight with you. The epilogue says that Anora and the PC can bring a Golden age if they don't fight each other. So while it is possible to be at odds with her, it is not necessary.
So while Anora can deal with the bureaucratic elements of the State, my PC is the figurehead and the leader of the army and the leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden. That's not too mention his other forms of influence (Templars, Chantry, Bhelen). So it would not be in Anora's interest to obstruct the recreation of the Grey Wardens. Not while her father is also working hard to rebuild them.

So my PC's position is as good, if not better, than Alistair being King. So he doesn't need Alistair at all.  

Ahh I see your point.
Hmnss. I guess if I played that way it would make sense.
Though, I am always best buds with Alistair...
Besides, as I posted above, I do see why Alistair do not want to be in the same space as Loghain, and I see it from a perspective other then his need for revenge / vengance / justice (depending on how you want to see it) as well as to the benefit of not only myself but to the wardens in the long run. While it is true that I might be king if I so choose to make it so, it only happens if I play a character who has no concern what happens to the wardens as a whole and as someone who only cares for his own benefit and power.

It really all depends on what you think the Grey Wardens should be like. I think if you let Loghain survive Fort Drakon I think Loghain will rebuild the Grey Wardens into something a lot closer to Duncan's and Riordan's view of what the Grey Wardens are, then if you let Alistair do the job. If that is better or worse is up to everyone to decide for themselves I guess. 

It just reinforces my position that you can find acceptable reasons for why a good/noble character should let Loghain live, but also why such a character would prefer to kill him. It's not a qustion really a question of a "good" and an "evil" choice I think. Which is why I find it sometimes very agonizing and hard.

I do not buy the idea that only a person who cares about power or don't care about the Grey Wardens chooses to become King consort. You could roleplay a nobleman who has had a secret crush on the Queen for years, if you like. With my first character, I honestly found Anora intriguing and I figured it would be a lot better for everyone if I married Anora rather than if I bullied Alistair into doing it.

The way I played it that first time, I was half prepared to led Alistair finally talk me out of saving Loghain, but I was trying to convince him, when he suddenly turned it into a "him or Anora" question, demanding that I should make him King. No way I could justify myself tossing my word to the queen out the window, just because Alistair wanted to be King so he could kill Loghain. So roleplaying becoming King doesn't all have to be about coldhearted power.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 13 janvier 2010 - 09:27 .

[GmanFresh]

eh at the end of the day he committed many crimes... and put money on my head... my first play...ostagar sealed his fate. reading the books i understood him more but still.

[Archonsg]

Yah. That is why I think we all should read and think about what everyone has been posting as their reasons for allowing or not allowing Loghain to live. I do think that each and everyone of us has a point and they are all valid ones. Even ones that don't make sense to you. Looking from the point of view from another person's perspective does sometimes help in getting into the headspace of the PC you are playing and makes for a better RP experiece don't you think?



Then of course, we all need to take into consideration of you own personal feelings and like it or not, not everyone feel the same or are able to truly, fully RP in such a way that you can put aside your own persona so to speak.

[Xandurpein]

Archonsg wrote...

Yah. That is why I think we all should read and think about what everyone has been posting as their reasons for allowing or not allowing Loghain to live. I do think that each and everyone of us has a point and they are all valid ones. Even ones that don't make sense to you. Looking from the point of view from another person's perspective does sometimes help in getting into the headspace of the PC you are playing and makes for a better RP experiece don't you think?

Then of course, we all need to take into consideration of you own personal feelings and like it or not, not everyone feel the same or are able to truly, fully RP in such a way that you can put aside your own persona so to speak.

I agree very much with this. Not only can you learn some interesting things when you read how other people reason, even if they come to different conclusions than your own, but it makes for a much nicer forum if we do respect that just because someone doesn't make the same choices I do, it doesn't follow that his choice can't be as valid as mine.

[Dr. Walrus]

Bravo!

[Ulicus]

I missed this my first time through RtO, found this interesting:























--------------------------------RtO SPOILER --------------------------------


Elric: Maker. All that time in Bann Loren's prison and I couldn't stop thinking about all they suffered that one night at Ostagar...
Charname: It's not your fault they died.
Loghain: It was  fool's battle, lost before it begun. You are not to blame.
Elric: I know. The darkspawn were too many. Even Cailan, for all his bravado, knew there would be no victory at Ostagar.

So, that - at least - seems to back me up on Loghain thinking the battle was pretty much lost from the outset.  Not that RtO paints Loghain in a particularly "nice" light, generally speaking. His contempt for Cailan is a lot, lot greater than I imagined.


Though, given his suspicions that Cailan was going to drop Anora and marry Celene I of Orlais (supported somewhat by their correspondance), maybe that's justified....

--------------------------------RtO SPOILER --------------------------------

Modifié par Ulicus, 14 janvier 2010 - 12:29 .

[RangerSG]

MutantSpleen wrote...

All I knew of being a Grey Warden came from Duncan. Unless you play the squeaky clean human noble origin, every other person comes from a somewhat shady past. (Not sure about the Dalish, as I have never made one) My mage defied the first enchanter and the templars and helped Jowan escape the tower. If not for Duncan I would probably have been put to death by Gregoire, or at least sent to Aeonar. In all regards I played some part in Arl Eamon's poisoning.

Duncan said that the Grey Wardens do not judge the past of others. Leliana through my play helped me realize that more. So that's why I gave Loghain a chance to redeem himself. I believe Duncan would have too.

Oh, your mage can be "squeaky clean" too. If you "aid" Jowan on the First Enchanter's orders, you were a loyal footsoldier and Irving "rewards" you by offering you to Duncan.

[Sahariel]

This is directed primarily at the OP.

There is one simple fact that makes Loghain Mac Tir a traitor, and it is simply this: Ferelden is a feudal monarchy and as such everyone owes fealty to the person above them up the chain, and through them to the Monarch. Loghain owes his fealty and position to the King and as such is expected to obey the King without question. The simple fact that Loghain went against the express orders of his King, and that decision led to the King's demise would without question be considered High Treason.

By all means judge him against modern day sensibilities as an interesting intellectual excercise, but if you don't consider the cultural bias of the country from which is from you are missing the point. Something like High Treason is considered amongst the worst sort of crime, a fact that Loghain himself would have doubtless been aware and even then was willing to commit. You can argue wether Loghain was right to betray the King, or wether the King himself was crazy to have led the charge in the first place, but they are seperate to considering Loghain's Treachery.

For the record I believe the Battle of Ostagar was either winnable or escapable otherwise I think Duncan's game plan would have been totally different. Consider that Duncan himself is a veteran commander of the Grey Wardens and an expert at fighting Darkspawn. Had the King's aspiration to defeat the Darkspawn at Ostegar been grossly unrealistic, Duncan would have unlikely commited both himself and the bulk of the Grey Wardens of Ferelden to such an action. He would have likely sent in a token force in with the King, supported Loghain's retreat and lived to fight the blight another day.

I think the analysis of Loghain is that basically he was the leader of the retaking of Ferelden and used to having his every order followed to the letter. As a military commander in a time of peace he was probably not used to being relegated to the background and seemed enough of a control freak to come around to the way of thinking that things would be much better under his direct leadership. Whilst he didn't have the backing or the lineage to attempt a successfull coup d'etat he saw an opportunity to rid himself of the troublesome King and took it. The reason he works with you in the end should you choose to save him, is that simply speaking he realises that you are in the right, and also have the might and insight to back your superiority, and as such for now he is able to be a very capable leuitenant.

[Sahariel]

Deleted For Double Posting

Modifié par Sahariel, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:28 .

[Vicious]

RtO definetly paints Loghain in more good guy light if he's in your party. I'd say the only thing he regrets of the whole battle was that the Grey Wardens died alongside Cailan. He doesn't feel bad that Cailan died, he feels bad for everyone else who did because he withdrew.



His dialogue is also better than Alistair's imo in RtO.

[Ulicus]

I found it interesting that even if Loghain isn't in your party when you talk to Elric about it not being his fault for what happened at Ostagar, he specifically states that even if Loghain had come, it wouldn't have helped. 

You could say it's a deserter trying to justify himself... but at the minute it seems that Loghain made the right call when it came to Ostagar.

Modifié par Ulicus, 14 janvier 2010 - 03:30 .

[Vicious]

in RtO, tell Loghain you want to leave Cailan strung up and watch his reaction. ROFL.

[Nobody Important]

Vicious wrote...

in RtO, tell Loghain you want to leave Cailan strung up and watch his reaction. ROFL.

Yeah I was going to leave Cailan there after I read the letters but Loghain got mad at me. So I didn't.

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain just proves right there that although he hates Cailan he cares about Fereldan above all else, even his own hatred for someone.

WTB option to enter Cailan's tent, grab the letters. Then at the war council stabs Cailan and shows letters to Loghain.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 05:04 .

[Warden24]

Well, I agree with the OP completely, and I do feel... sympathetic for Loghain. I don't think he betrayed the King, and I think his reasons for hating the Wardens, as skewed as they are, can be justified. One, they DID lead the king out into the thick of battle, the highly outnumbered front lines. Two, Alistair and the PC are trusted to light the beacon, and you fail to do so in an orderly fashion. Loghain standing there, waiting for the beacon only to realize that the battle was MOST LIKELY lost, can only assume one possible outcome; the Wardens delayed on purpose. Now, we know differently, but he didn't.

Thank you OP for playing devil's advocate here. Loghain gets a horrible rep only for doing what he thinks is best for Ferelden, and people equate that to an Orlesian hating insanity, which is unfounded. (The insanity at any rate.)

However, I killed him every time on principle. He did my character a personal injustice, and tried to kill the PC and his party.

The Maker can forgive him of his crimes, his misguided actions, and false sense of betrayal. Its my job to make sure he gets to him.

Modifié par Warden24, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:32 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Warden24, your logic is.....interesting...to say the least.

[Wissenschaft]

..

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:42 .

[Astranagant]

I often find myself wishing there were an option to abandon Ferelden to the blight entirely and head to Orlais to join up with the Orlesian Wardens, just so Loghain would get to reap what he sowed without the player having to clean up the mess he made.

The only downside to that would be that Loghain wouldn't know that only a Warden can kill the Archdemon, and thus he wouldn't know that he was personally responsible for Ferelden's destruction due to his actions at Ostagar.

I find the OP's claims patently absurd, and nothing Loghain does in the game is defensible, even if he (wrongly) thinks it's for the good of Ferelden.

Warden24 wrote...

Well, I agree with the OP completely, and I do feel... sympathetic for Loghain. I don't think he betrayed the King, and I think his reasons for hating the Wardens, as skewed as they are, can be justified. One, they DID lead the king out into the thick of battle, the highly outnumbered front lines. Two, Alistair and the PC are trusted to light the beacon, and you fail to do so in an orderly fashion. Loghain standing there, waiting for the beacon only to realize that the battle was MOST LIKELY lost, can only assume one possible outcome; the Wardens delayed on purpose. Now, we know differently, but he didn't.

Thank you OP for playing devil's advocate here. Loghain gets a horrible rep only for doing what he thinks is best for Ferelden, and people equate that to an Orlesian hating insanity, which is unfounded. (The insanity at any rate.)

However, I killed him every time on principle. He did my character a personal injustice, and tried to kill the PC and his party.

The Maker can forgive him of his crimes, his misguided actions, and false sense of betrayal. Its my job to make sure he gets to him.

It was Cailan that the Wardens were following. If you listen to Duncan he states clearly that he's in no position to give the king orders, and that his preference is to wait for reinforcements. It's simply not true that the Wardens led Cailan to death.

If you talk to the guard at the tower of Ishal before the events of Ostagar he'll mention that Loghain's troops are investigating the underchambers of the tower, it's not a stretch to suspect that Loghain's troops were there to clear a path for the Darkspawn to give him an excuse to abandon the king by saying the beacon was never lit.

It's also awfully convenient that Loghain makes a traitor, Arl Howe, his right hand man, right after said right hand man just happens to commit an enormous act of treason as if he had reason to believe the king would not live to deliver justice and that the king's successor would make him his right hand. etc. etc.

It seems patently obvious to me that Loghain and Howe were co-conspirators and Loghain, a strategist of great renown, had planned the king's death as well as the deaths of his potential enemies, Teyrn Cousland and Arl Eamon, well in advance of the battle.

Modifié par Astranagant, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:49 .