1429 réponses à ce sujet

[thegreateski]

*Applause*

[Wissenschaft]

..

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:46 .

[Wissenschaft]

Perhaps they just wanted a marriage for political alliance. Thats very common.



This remind me of the big debate after the American revolution. Someone wanted an alliance with Britain while others saw that as treason.



Just goes to show you how great a character Loghain Mac Tir really is. Hes like Napoleon who to this day has his defenders and detractors.

[Xandurpein]

Astranagant wrote...

I often find myself wishing there were an option to abandon Ferelden to the blight entirely and head to Orlais to join up with the Orlesian Wardens, just so Loghain would get to reap what he sowed without the player having to clean up the mess he made.

The only downside to that would be that Loghain wouldn't know that only a Warden can kill the Archdemon, and thus he wouldn't know that he was personally responsible for Ferelden's destruction due to his actions at Ostagar.

I find the OP's claims patently absurd, and nothing Loghain does in the game is defensible, even if he (wrongly) thinks it's for the good of Ferelden.

Warden24 wrote...

Well, I agree with the OP completely, and I do feel... sympathetic for Loghain. I don't think he betrayed the King, and I think his reasons for hating the Wardens, as skewed as they are, can be justified. One, they DID lead the king out into the thick of battle, the highly outnumbered front lines. Two, Alistair and the PC are trusted to light the beacon, and you fail to do so in an orderly fashion. Loghain standing there, waiting for the beacon only to realize that the battle was MOST LIKELY lost, can only assume one possible outcome; the Wardens delayed on purpose. Now, we know differently, but he didn't.

Thank you OP for playing devil's advocate here. Loghain gets a horrible rep only for doing what he thinks is best for Ferelden, and people equate that to an Orlesian hating insanity, which is unfounded. (The insanity at any rate.)

However, I killed him every time on principle. He did my character a personal injustice, and tried to kill the PC and his party.

The Maker can forgive him of his crimes, his misguided actions, and false sense of betrayal. Its my job to make sure he gets to him.

It was Cailan that the Wardens were following. If you listen to Duncan he states clearly that he's in no position to give the king orders, and that his preference is to wait for reinforcements. It's simply not true that the Wardens led Cailan to death.

If you talk to the guard at the tower of Ishal before the events of Ostagar he'll mention that Loghain's troops are investigating the underchambers of the tower, it's not a stretch to suspect that Loghain's troops were there to clear a path for the Darkspawn to give him an excuse to abandon the king by saying the beacon was never lit.

It's also awfully convenient that Loghain makes a traitor, Arl Howe, his right hand man, right after said right hand man just happens to commit an enormous act of treason as if he had reason to believe the king would not live to deliver justice and that the king's successor would make him his right hand. etc. etc.

It seems patently obvious to me that Loghain and Howe were co-conspirators and Loghain, a strategist of great renown, had planned the king's death as well as the deaths of his potential enemies, Teyrn Cousland and Arl Eamon, well in advance of the battle.

Please read the whole thread before posting. Several of the things you write have already been disproved by David Gaider in this thread.
Loghain did NOT allow the Darkspawn to take the tower.
Howe killed Teryn Cousland on his own, not on Loghain's orders
Loghain did NOT try to kill Arl Eamon, only incapacitate him.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:57 .

[Astranagant]

Xandurpein wrote...

Astranagant wrote...

I often find myself wishing there were an option to abandon Ferelden to the blight entirely and head to Orlais to join up with the Orlesian Wardens, just so Loghain would get to reap what he sowed without the player having to clean up the mess he made.

The only downside to that would be that Loghain wouldn't know that only a Warden can kill the Archdemon, and thus he wouldn't know that he was personally responsible for Ferelden's destruction due to his actions at Ostagar.

I find the OP's claims patently absurd, and nothing Loghain does in the game is defensible, even if he (wrongly) thinks it's for the good of Ferelden.

Warden24 wrote...

Well, I agree with the OP completely, and I do feel... sympathetic for Loghain. I don't think he betrayed the King, and I think his reasons for hating the Wardens, as skewed as they are, can be justified. One, they DID lead the king out into the thick of battle, the highly outnumbered front lines. Two, Alistair and the PC are trusted to light the beacon, and you fail to do so in an orderly fashion. Loghain standing there, waiting for the beacon only to realize that the battle was MOST LIKELY lost, can only assume one possible outcome; the Wardens delayed on purpose. Now, we know differently, but he didn't.

Thank you OP for playing devil's advocate here. Loghain gets a horrible rep only for doing what he thinks is best for Ferelden, and people equate that to an Orlesian hating insanity, which is unfounded. (The insanity at any rate.)

However, I killed him every time on principle. He did my character a personal injustice, and tried to kill the PC and his party.

The Maker can forgive him of his crimes, his misguided actions, and false sense of betrayal. Its my job to make sure he gets to him.

It was Cailan that the Wardens were following. If you listen to Duncan he states clearly that he's in no position to give the king orders, and that his preference is to wait for reinforcements. It's simply not true that the Wardens led Cailan to death.

If you talk to the guard at the tower of Ishal before the events of Ostagar he'll mention that Loghain's troops are investigating the underchambers of the tower, it's not a stretch to suspect that Loghain's troops were there to clear a path for the Darkspawn to give him an excuse to abandon the king by saying the beacon was never lit.

It's also awfully convenient that Loghain makes a traitor, Arl Howe, his right hand man, right after said right hand man just happens to commit an enormous act of treason as if he had reason to believe the king would not live to deliver justice and that the king's successor would make him his right hand. etc. etc.

It seems patently obvious to me that Loghain and Howe were co-conspirators and Loghain, a strategist of great renown, had planned the king's death as well as the deaths of his potential enemies, Teyrn Cousland and Arl Eamon, well in advance of the battle.

Please read the whole thread before posting. Several of the things you write have already been disproved by David Gaider in this thread.
Loghain did NOT allow the Darkspawn to take the tower.
Howe killed Teryn Cousland on his own, not on Loghain's orders
Loghain did NOT try to kill Arl Eamon, only incapacitate him.

Point taken, not that reading a 34 page thread is something I have the time or the patience to do.

[Xandurpein]

@Astranagant and anyone else who don't want to read the whole thread before offering their opinion. David Gaider posted some clarifications on Loghain's actions and plans. You can find them on page 17 and 18 of this thread. It makes for interesting reading.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Perhaps they just wanted a marriage for political alliance. Thats very common.

This remind me of the big debate after the American revolution. Someone wanted an alliance with Britain while others saw that as treason.

Just goes to show you how great a character Loghain Mac Tir really is. Hes like Napoleon who to this day has his defenders and detractors.

If Cailan was planning on marrying an Orlesian nobility, then maybe that would have been a political alliance. But the Empress? Seriously? That would basically mean that Orlais and Ferelden are ruled by the same crown. Even if Ferelden had a very strong King, such a feat will automatically result in Ferelden becoming a vassal state to Orlais. Add the fact that Cailan is an idiot, while Empress Celene is a political mastermind and genius. If Cailan was being played with by Anora, a simple peasant girl, what chance does he have with Celene, described as being  like Catherine the Great? He would have been even more of a puppet.

This wasn't an alliance. This was a fusion between a superpower like Orlais and a backward nation like Ferelden. Who do you honestly think is going to dominate?
Orlais has a larger population.
Orlais has a stronger economy.
Orlais has a larger military.
Orlais has a stronger nobility, while Ferelden has nobility that consortede with Orlais once.
Orlais has religion at its side, being the most important nation for the Chantry. This is similar to Charlemagne's French Empire where he too controlled the papacy, thus had considerable influence over Western Europe.
Orlais has the stronger, better ruler.
It doesn't take a political genius to see that Ferelden is basically being offered on a silver platter by Cailan to Orlais. **** whiped imbecile.

It make sense now why Cailan refused to listen to Loghain and insisted on Orlesian reinforcements. If Orlais saves Ferelden from the blight, the marriage would gain alot more legitimacy. Because as it stands, no one would have approved of it.
Cailan had to die. There is no question about that. He clearly has lost his so called mind.

[Costin_Razvan]

Cailan had a mind to begin with? Did I play a different game then I know already?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I will ask this: Who the **** are you all, that judge Loghain, to think you can kill him? Despite your stupid and childish assumption, HE FREED FERELDAN, that might not mean much to you but a man who gave everything he held dear and loved to save a country ( His father, his love, his very soul ) deserves the utmost respect. When you are even 1% in reality of a guy like Loghain then you might just able to lick his shoes. What he did afterward doesn't matter, because he did it because he thought it was best for his country, he didn't want a civil war.

So..you are basicly saying that being a hero gives you carte blanche to do everything, cause once you did something heroic, you're allways a hero?
You can kick puppies and run genocidal campaign - but who cares. You were a HERO 30 years ago. That makes you UNTOUCHABLE. To speak against you is TABOO!!!

As for the elves, let me quote: This is war, did you think it would be like the stories with knights in shining armor, fighting honorably? War is cruel, anyone who fought along side Maric knows this, and in it there no such things as innocence. Only the living and the dead, and the degrees of guilt both bear.

What a load of .....well, you get it.
There is no such thing as innocence? Oh, the irony! A lot of countries have been involved in wars and were short on supplies and/or men and DIDN'T resort to slavery.
You're completely blind to the obvious truth - there is no ONE way to do things. There is no MUST. You don't HAVE to sell slaves. You CHOOSE to sell slaves.

That is the root of all evil. The abiltiy to rationalize everything, the WILLINGNES to compromise and cross lines, all for the sake of "greater good". But cross too many lines.... and you end up with people like Hitler or Stalin. And don't even bother citing goodwins Laws. It's a peice of crap that only exist so people would feel smart for quoting it and so one can undermine the other side of a debate wihout even touching the actual points.

Bottom point - Loghains past heroics don't excuse him in the least.
And yes, I can judge him, cause he tried to kill me multiple times.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 14 janvier 2010 - 12:16 .

[Sabriana]

Cailan was a complete and utter fool all along. It felt very satisfying for my PC to tell Duncan that straight out.

Cailan brushes aside not only Loghain's concerns, but also scoffs at Duncan's advice. True, Cailan didn't know that Eamon was ill by then, but to wave of reinforcements that are close by with "Eamon only wants in on the glory". What? I beg your pardon? We'll not wait for reinforcement and thereby better many odds for us and the armies assembled because of a 'glory' thing?

Cailan has no mind other than the one obsessed with glory and honor. For himself, that is, not for anyone or anything else. Anora is the true power in Ferelden, as stated often enough in the game itself. Cailan would be fodder for someone so well versed in politics as the Empress of Orlais.

Brilliant move on her part. Bed the idiotic fool, get him to foresake Anora, marry him, and voila - Ferelden is hers without her having to draw a single sword.

Cailan could not stand against the Empress, her court, the Orlesian nobles, and the huge army the Empress commands. He'd be that which he was in Ferelden: a pretty, shiny puppet on a string. Ferelden would be swallowed whole, and become the glorified backwater of Orlais.

Anyone saying that Ferelden would be the nation in dominance, read up on Orlais and its customs, and especially about how the Ferelden population was treated during Orlesian occupation.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Actually, it's the people citing Hitler, while not knowing half of the history involved in him, that think they are smart and think they can end a debate by the mere mention of his name, without actually saying anything. Loghain and Hitler have little in common, except for what's common amongst all leaders in periods of war.

[Apophis2412]

A simple question: Is Loghain evil according to 21st century Western morality or Ferelden/Thedas morality?

[nos_astra]

2 Sabriana
Hm, I agree. But where does that leave Loghain? Doesn't this point of view make his actions even more pointless?

Modifié par klarabella, 14 janvier 2010 - 12:33 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I will ask this: Who the **** are you all, that judge Loghain, to think you can kill him? Despite your stupid and childish assumption, HE FREED FERELDAN, that might not mean much to you but a man who gave everything he held dear and loved to save a country ( His father, his love, his very soul ) deserves the utmost respect. When you are even 1% in reality of a guy like Loghain then you might just able to lick his shoes. What he did afterward doesn't matter, because he did it because he thought it was best for his country, he didn't want a civil war.

So..you are basicly saying that being a hero gives you carte blanche to do everything, cause once you did something heroic, you're allways a hero?
You can kick puppies and run genocidal campaign - but who cares. You were a HERO 30 years ago. That makes you UNTOUCHABLE. To speak against you is TABOO!!!

As for the elves, let me quote: This is war, did you think it would be like the stories with knights in shining armor, fighting honorably? War is cruel, anyone who fought along side Maric knows this, and in it there no such things as innocence. Only the living and the dead, and the degrees of guilt both bear.

What a load of .....well, you get it.
There is no such thing as innocence? Oh, the irony! A lot of countries have been involved in wars and were short on supplies and/or men and DIDN'T resort to slavery.
You're completely blind to the obvious truth - there is no ONE way to do things. There is no MUST. You don't HAVE to sell slaves. You CHOOSE to sell slaves.

That is the root of all evil. The abiltiy to rationalize everything, the WILLINGNES to compromise and cross lines, all for the sake of "greater good". But cross too many lines.... and you end up with people like Hitler or Stalin. And don't even bother citing goodwins Laws. It's a peice of crap that only exist so people would feel smart for quoting it and so one can undermine the other side of a debate wihout even touching the actual points.

Bottom point - Loghains past heroics don't excuse him in the least.
And yes, I can judge him, cause he tried to kill me multiple times.

Wars waged past medieval age you mean. What you fail to understand with your load of bull****, is that the action in Dragon Age takes place in MEDIEVAL TIMES, FFS.

Every war in that age, EVERY SINGLE DAMNED ONE, by any ruler. Involved taking slaves, raping women when Villages/Cities where conquered, plundering and torture. People would kill without mercy, homes would be burned to the ground.

The only time such things didn't happen was when cities would be surrender, and even then slaves would be taken. Saladin took a third of Jerusalem's population as slaves when he took the city, and he is considered one of the most kind leaders in Medieval Times.

Did you think every leader liked this? Or welcomed this? Very few did but they needed the cash from the slaves and pilaging, they needed their soldiers to follow them without question ( aka the rape ). Loghain is a leader perhaps even kinder then Saladin. ( who btw also rebeled and killed his own lord to get in power )

Secondly, Loghain did not go on a genocidal campaign, he went on a civil war against nobles who wanted power for their own means ( just like Howe did ). He tried to kill you because he considered you a threat to his power, a threat that would try and take him down ( and rightly so ), or did you think that if he had just let you be you still wouldn't have ended up at the Landmseet against him?

No court today, or even then Medieval Times, would allow you to judge Loghain personally. Joan D'Arc had to be taken by the trith to a Inquisiton Court, so they could kill her. They couldn't simply take her head off and be done with it, such action would have sparked a rebelion among the nobles of your country, and mass rebelion.

Another thing to consider is that in medieval times you were NOT allowed to take a shot at the enemy leaders during battles, doing such a thing would guarantee your OWN side would kill you.

A simple question: Is Loghain evil according to 21st century Western morality or Ferelden/Thedas morality?

By 21st Century Morality he is a criminal, by Fereldan and Thedas Morality he is a very kind leader ( want to compare him to Emperor Drakon? Or perhaps the Archons of the Tevinter Imperium? Or even the Arishok? )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 12:39 .

[Sabriana]

klarabella wrote...

2 Sabriana
Hm, I agree. But where does that leave Loghain? Doesn't this point of view make his actions even more pointless?

Lol, who do you agree with, Klarabella?

But in the add-on RtO it seems that Cailan was ready to ditch Anora, marry the Empress (no doubt so he could be glorious Emporer, instead of a simple king), and hand Ferelden over to Orlais gift-wrapped and on a silver platter.


Ninja'd by Klarabella

Modifié par Sabriana, 14 janvier 2010 - 12:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...

When my HN PC insisted that she should visit vengeance on Howe to Duncan, he slapped her down quickly, stating that "Defeating the Blight supersedes everything. Even vengeance." Is it so wrong of my HN to take this to heart?

You'll notice that at no point has he told you to NEVER take revenge on him. He's jsut talking some sense into you.
Consider the situation - the king knows of Howes trechery and plans to investigate after the battle. Howe IS a noble and if you were to storm Howe's mantion and gut him, the king would be pissed. Even if he wouldn't, think of the other nobles. The GW's were on thin ice as it is in Ferelden, they didn't need no more negative attention.
He was advising a sensible course of action - fight the battle tomorrow and ride with the king at the head of na army to Howes house. You would have your vengance.
Of course, Duncan couldn't have known of the upcoming betrayl.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
 Loghain is a leader perhaps even kinder then Saladin. ( who btw also rebeled and killed his own lord to get in power )

Actually no, Saladin did not kill his master, Noor Al Din Zengi. But he did rebel yes. He was assigned to conquer Egypt for Noor Al Din, buit instead consolidated his power and refused to give it up. Then Noor Al Din died and Saladin took Syria into his sultanate.

[Sabriana]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

When my HN PC insisted that she should visit vengeance on Howe to Duncan, he slapped her down quickly, stating that "Defeating the Blight supersedes everything. Even vengeance." Is it so wrong of my HN to take this to heart?

You'll notice that at no point has he told you to NEVER take revenge on him. He's jsut talking some sense into you.
Consider the situation - the king knows of Howes trechery and plans to investigate after the battle. Howe IS a noble and if you were to storm Howe's mantion and gut him, the king would be pissed. Even if he wouldn't, think of the other nobles. The GW's were on thin ice as it is in Ferelden, they didn't need no more negative attention.
He was advising a sensible course of action - fight the battle tomorrow and ride with the king at the head of na army to Howes house. You would have your vengance.
Of course, Duncan couldn't have known of the upcoming betrayl.

No.

The king and whatnot do not figure into this. It is clearly stated in the sentence that Duncan tells her that the Blight supersedes everything. King, country, war, nothing figures into it. If that was so, Duncan would have said: This battle supersedes everything, even vengeance."

What Duncan wanted to prevent was my PC running off, and him loosing a promising Grey Warden prospect. Which would up the odds against the Blight. Nothing more.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Every war in that age, EVERY SINGLE DAMNED ONE, by any ruler. Involved taking slaves, raping women when Villages/Cities where conquered, plundering and torture. People would kill without mercy, homes would be burned to the ground.

This is incorrect.
And while it is true that large armies were much harder to monitor than today, and that crimes and pillaging did happen, that's completely different from planned slavery of your own citizens Or torture or poisoning of nobles.
Let's not even talk about treason. Cause that was punished by death.

No court today, or even then Medieval Times, would allow you to judge Loghain personally. Joan D'Arc had to be taken by the trith to a Inquisiton Court, so they could kill her. They couldn't simply take her head off and be done with it, such action would have sparked a rebelion among the nobles of your country, and mass rebelion.

The Landsmeet IS the authority in Ferelden and tehy HAVE given the right of decision to you.
The game gives you the legality for such a decision. Frankly, I consider it stupid that they would do that, but what's done is done.


And I see you completely ignored my main points....

[Costin_Razvan]

Pardon me, he tried to kill him He even waged war against him.

[Lotion Soronarr]

eschilde wrote...

@Klystron
I don't believe Loghain is only ordering your execution out of spite.. it's pragmatic, the same reason Bhelen orders Harrowmont executed, or Anora orders Alistair executed, given the same situation. The fact remains that you have caused him an equal (or greater) amount of trouble as he has caused you. Both of you have perfectly legitimate reasons to want the other one dead. Not to mention, Loghain doesn't have an alternate sentence, so to speak. There is no alternative to your death, whereas for him being conscripted into the GWs is an option.

I call BS on this one.

So Loghain killing you is "smart and pragmatic", but you killing him isn't? What kind of messed up logic is that? He could have thrown you into the jail. He could have forced you to swear loyalty. He could have sent you to the fron lines to die.

[Costin_Razvan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Every war in that age, EVERY SINGLE DAMNED ONE, by any ruler. Involved taking slaves, raping women when Villages/Cities where conquered, plundering and torture. People would kill without mercy, homes would be burned to the ground.

This is incorrect.
And while it is true that large armies were much harder to monitor than today, and that crimes and pillaging did happen, that's completely different from planned slavery of your own citizens Or torture or poisoning of nobles.
Let's not even talk about treason. Cause that was punished by death.

Oh is it? It was allowed, and the leaders encouraged it back then. Don't base yourself on wiki, go to a history academy library and read there. The crimes you will find comited by the vast majority of leaders would make you think Loghain is a saint.

As for treason, lowly soldiers where punished so, but high ranking generals and leaders where rarely executed like that. Henry the Lion would be an example of this.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I call BS on this one.

So
Loghain killing you is "smart and pragmatic", but you killing him
isn't? What kind of messed up logic is that? He could have thrown you
into the jail. He could have forced you to swear loyalty. He could have
sent you to the fron lines to die.

As long as you and Eamon live the civil war can continue, or did you think it would simply end once you where thrown in prison? Such things don't happen.

The civil war does end when you recruit Loghain, because he is now under your direct command.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 12:50 .

[Wildhide]

DG essentially confirmed my belief about Loghain. I don't think he went to Ostagar planning to kill Cailin, but he went not intending to engage in the fight. This is why he tried to talk Cailin out of standing on the front line, and why he wanted his own men in the tower, so that it wouldn't be lit. This way he could eliminate the Grey Wardens (Whom he had convinced himself were working for Orlais to sneak soldiers in under the claim of a Blight) and declare them traitors. He still declared this anyways, just in a different manner.



This still doesn't excuse his behavior for much of the game, and a lot of the things he did, while maybe tactically sound, were still rather vile. And my character was a HN, so he was pissed for Loghain harboring a the murderer of his family (I had reached Loghain and the King first and made my complaint long before they took control) and murdering the Grey Wardens, falsely labeling them traitors, and trying to have him killed.



Loghain was more liability than asset, and my character couldn't trust him, and very well hated the man. So he died. My mage killed him as well, because he couldn't condone letting him live after all he'd done, anyone else would have been put to death. My rogue saw a good fighter that he felt he could control, and spared him.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Rape and pillage were insitutionalised and planned as weapons of war, Costin is correct. Even by the Napoleonic era, this was the norm.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...
The king and whatnot do not figure into this. It is clearly stated in the sentence that Duncan tells her that the Blight supersedes everything. King, country, war, nothing figures into it. If that was so, Duncan would have said: This battle supersedes everything, even vengeance."

What Duncan wanted to prevent was my PC running off, and him loosing a promising Grey Warden prospect. Which would up the odds against the Blight. Nothing more.

No. How would travling with the king to see Howe hanged loose him a Warden? All it "loses" him is a few days of riding, the trial and execution - and that's assuming he had no other buisness in Denerim or other tasks for the wardens.

The thing is that your running after Howe vigilante style could endanger the Wardens whole fight agaisnt the Blight here in Ferelden.