1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Kohaku]

@Sabriana - I agree. I'm just at the beginning of The Stolen Throne and I'm starting to let the cracks in my "I hate Loghain!" faceplate show. You can tell he couldn't stand Orlais. I can totally understand why he would think Cailan was betraying his country by calling in the people that controlled his land for so long. They killed his grandmother, hunted his father to no end, his mother and grandfather were on the run. It just boggles my mind what would even posses him to agree to it. Yes they needed help, maybe they could have done it on a smaller scale but not the way Cailan wanted to approach it.



No matter how much people hate Anora, Ferelden would have been ass out if Cailan had been ruling without her. He didn't even know what was going on in his own goddamn city and probably the rest of Ferelden.



If I had been Loghain, I would have **** slapped him. Simple. That doesn't mean I don't think he should have had to die for it though.

[ReubenLiew]

A Loghain b****slap IS the equivalent of an ogre crush.

So basically same ending different hand.

[Kohaku]

True. Thanks for getting me to see the light Reuben. ~Hugs~

[ReubenLiew]

It's alright *pats* Loghain did have really huge meaty hands...

[Gimmemocha]

The civil war does end when you recruit Loghain, because he is now under your direct command.

Bwa hah.  Hah hah. Ha.

Being under Cailan's direct command didn't stop Loghain from walking off the battlefield with his part of the army, just when Cailan needed him most.  Why would the MC Grey Warden think Loghain would be loyal to him/her?

[Sabriana]

My PC said she wanted to avenge her family rather than stay and fight this battle. This brought up the oft-mentioned line.

How would one person running off to Highever to confront Howe affect the upcoming battle in any way? He does not want my PC to forego the ritual and run off. He wants her to become a Grey Warden. I don't understand how such a clear statement can be in any way misinterpreted. If he says "Fighting the Blight supersedes everything, even vengeance." then that is exactly what he means. No ands, ifs, or buts.

There is no mention of his opinions and feelings should the GW PC ride back to Highever with the king. It's not said anywhere, it's not even eluded to. It makes little sense. Should that come to pass, it would mean the king was victorious and the darkspawn defeated. No one and nothing could stop my PC from riding with the king then. There would be no pressing need for her to stay at Duncan's side, she could easily rejoin him later.
To rephrase it: Nothing is above fighting the Blight. Nothing. It always takes precedence, always. Not crown, nor cowl, nor personal matters can ever top the need to fight the Blight.

Edited:
Oops. where did my quote go? Anyway, I was referring to this:

Lotion Soronnar wrote:

 

Sabriana wrote...
    The king and whatnot do not figure into this. It is clearly stated in the sentence that Duncan tells her that the Blight supersedes everything. King, country, war, nothing figures into it. If that was so, Duncan would have said: This battle supersedes everything, even vengeance."

    What Duncan wanted to prevent was my PC running off, and him loosing a promising Grey Warden prospect. Which would up the odds against the Blight. Nothing more.

No. How would travling with the king to see Howe hanged loose him a Warden? All it "loses" him is a few days of riding, the trial and execution - and that's assuming he had no other buisness in Denerim or other tasks for the wardens.

The thing is that your running after Howe vigilante style could endanger the Wardens whole fight agaisnt the Blight here in Ferelden.

Modifié par Sabriana, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:17 .

[ReubenLiew]

Gimmemocha wrote...

The civil war does end when you recruit Loghain, because he is now under your direct command.

Bwa hah.  Hah hah. Ha.

Being under Cailan's direct command didn't stop Loghain from walking off the battlefield with his part of the army, just when Cailan needed him most.  Why would the MC Grey Warden think Loghain would be loyal to him/her?

Because, unlike Cailan, Loghain can't actually leave camp without staying 4 feet away from you physically!

[Costin_Razvan]

Gimmemocha wrote...

The civil war does end when you recruit Loghain, because he is now under your direct command.

Bwa hah.  Hah hah. Ha.

Being under Cailan's direct command didn't stop Loghain from walking off the battlefield with his part of the army, just when Cailan needed him most.  Why would the MC Grey Warden think Loghain would be loyal to him/her?

Becaus of two things:

1) He realizes the warden is not a idiot like Cailan.
2) He doesn't have any means to betray you.

[Lathaon]

Well, I'm not going to read through 34 pages of replies, but the original post was pretty convincing and well done.if you ask me, and I feel like I understand his reasoning a bit more now. However, it doesn't change anything. Maybe he wasn't guilty of betraying the King, but he was certainly guilty of his crimes against the elves. I still think the most fitting end for him is to sacrifice himself to kill the archdemon. Even before learning about the archdemon, I think he realised he was expected to fight and die for Ferelden, giving everyone else a better chance. It's a shame Alistair couldn't see that, but that's his problem.

[Sabriana]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

@Sabriana - I agree. I'm just at the beginning of The Stolen Throne and I'm starting to let the cracks in my "I hate Loghain!" faceplate show. You can tell he couldn't stand Orlais. I can totally understand why he would think Cailan was betraying his country by calling in the people that controlled his land for so long. They killed his grandmother, hunted his father to no end, his mother and grandfather were on the run. It just boggles my mind what would even posses him to agree to it. Yes they needed help, maybe they could have done it on a smaller scale but not the way Cailan wanted to approach it.

No matter how much people hate Anora, Ferelden would have been ass out if Cailan had been ruling without her. He didn't even know what was going on in his own goddamn city and probably the rest of Ferelden.

If I had been Loghain, I would have **** slapped him. Simple. That doesn't mean I don't think he should have had to die for it though.

And that is how it should be. It's up to the indiviual player to do as they see fit, because it's their game and their right. My only concern is that Loghain is not the mustache twirling, cackling, one-dimensional evil person. There is so much more to him than that, and he is not simply black and/or white but far more grey. He's done many good things, and many bad things, but most of the time  he acted on his need to see to it that Ferelden remains free.

If not for Loghain, Ferelden and its population would still suffer greatly under the Orlesian iron fist, and be at the mercy of the chevaliers. Just talk to the girl in Denerim's market and ask about her history, and it becomes pretty plain that the Orlesian occupiers where anything but benign. Add to that the individual suffering Loghain had to endure at Orlesian hands, and things get a little more blurred. It will get harder to just condemn Loghain as plain evil, because he isn't that. Did he do vile things? He did indeed. Did he do them to elevate himself? Not really, his prime concern is all of Ferelden and its freedom.

I read that RtO blurrs the lines even further, and it could very well be that Cailan was on the verge of comitting the ultimate betrayal: Handing over Ferelden to the Empress of Orlais on a silver platter. Not only that, but Eamon seems to have encouraged it. And to think that I liked Eamon. I don't anymore, and I wish I could leave him unconscious on his bed in perpetuity. At least he can't do much harm in that state. Talk about self-interest. Eamon has boat-loads, and is very hypocritical when musing that Loghain has become 'power-mad'.

[Gimmemocha]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Gimmemocha wrote...

The civil war does end when you recruit Loghain, because he is now under your direct command.

Bwa hah.  Hah hah. Ha.

Being under Cailan's direct command didn't stop Loghain from walking off the battlefield with his part of the army, just when Cailan needed him most.  Why would the MC Grey Warden think Loghain would be loyal to him/her?

Becaus of two things:

1) He realizes the warden is not a idiot like Cailan.
2) He doesn't have any means to betray you.

...

OK, Cailan was an idiot, I confess.  I think only one of my playthroughs has seen the MC NOT pick that option when talking to Duncan.  Now if only there had been a "Get your head out of your ass, you blond bubblehead" option when talking to Cailan...

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabriana wrote...
How would one person running off to Highever to confront Howe affect the upcoming battle in any way? He does not want my PC to forego the ritual and run off. He wants her to become a Grey Warden. I don't understand how such a clear statement can be in any way misinterpreted. If he says "Fighting the Blight supersedes everything, even vengeance." then that is exactly what he means. No ands, ifs, or buts.

There is no mention of his opinions and feelings should the GW PC ride back to Highever with the king. It's not said anywhere, it's not even eluded to. It makes little sense. Should that come to pass, it would mean the king was victorious and the darkspawn defeated. No one and nothing could stop my PC from riding with the king then. There would be no pressing need for her to stay at Duncan's side, she could easily rejoin him later.
To rephrase it: Nothing is above fighting the Blight. Nothing. It always takes precedence, always. Not crown, nor cowl, nor personal matters can ever top the need to fight the Blight.

And I disagree. And the very fact that I am disagreeing proves that it can be interpreted differenlty.

You were fighitng the darkspawn army. The army itself wasn't the Blight, but the PC acting all vigilante CAN f**** up the plans of hte GW's in ferelden. That's why Duncan tells you to bide your time.

Now, if the Archdemon were to pop up a day or two after you finished hte fight, Duncan would tell you to turn around and ride to Howe LATER.

Simply put, the Blight takes precedence. That doesn't mean that when you have time to spare you cannot take vengance.

[Apophis2412]

Sabriana wrote...



I read that RtO blurrs the lines even further, and it could very well be that Cailan was on the verge of comitting the ultimate betrayal: Handing over Ferelden to the Empress of Orlais on a silver platter. Not only that, but Eamon seems to have encouraged it. And to think that I liked Eamon. I don't anymore, and I wish I could leave him unconscious on his bed in perpetuity. At least he can't do much harm in that state. Talk about self-interest. Eamon has boat-loads, and is very hypocritical when musing that Loghain has become 'power-mad'.

Why did you like Eamon? For one he never really cared about Alistair. Only the Theirin blood mattered to him. If Morrigan was a bastard child of Maric, he would probably have tried to persuade the Landsmeet to accept her as queen.

Secondly, he was blinded by the Theirin legacy to see that both Cailan and Alistair are not good king material.

Modifié par Apophis2412, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:43 .

[Costin_Razvan]

So, how is killing Loghain putting the blight above vengeance? Simply it is not. Despite what you might think he is a better warrior then Alistair and a good general.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

1) He realizes the warden is not a idiot like Cailan.
2) He doesn't have any means to betray you.

1) Just words. There's no way to tell he actually feels that way.
2) A sword in the back and fanatiacl supporters are very substantial means

[Apophis2412]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sabriana wrote...
How would one person running off to Highever to confront Howe affect the upcoming battle in any way? He does not want my PC to forego the ritual and run off. He wants her to become a Grey Warden. I don't understand how such a clear statement can be in any way misinterpreted. If he says "Fighting the Blight supersedes everything, even vengeance." then that is exactly what he means. No ands, ifs, or buts.

There is no mention of his opinions and feelings should the GW PC ride back to Highever with the king. It's not said anywhere, it's not even eluded to. It makes little sense. Should that come to pass, it would mean the king was victorious and the darkspawn defeated. No one and nothing could stop my PC from riding with the king then. There would be no pressing need for her to stay at Duncan's side, she could easily rejoin him later.
To rephrase it: Nothing is above fighting the Blight. Nothing. It always takes precedence, always. Not crown, nor cowl, nor personal matters can ever top the need to fight the Blight.

And I disagree. And the very fact that I am disagreeing proves that it can be interpreted differenlty.

You were fighitng the darkspawn army. The army itself wasn't the Blight, but the PC acting all vigilante CAN f**** up the plans of hte GW's in ferelden. That's why Duncan tells you to bide your time.

Now, if the Archdemon were to pop up a day or two after you finished hte fight, Duncan would tell you to turn around and ride to Howe LATER.

Simply put, the Blight takes precedence. That doesn't mean that when you have time to spare you cannot take vengance.

Not really. The Grey Wardens must also remain politically neutral. Killing an Arl out of vengeance is as bad as what Sophia Dryden did.

Modifié par Apophis2412, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:38 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain always speaks his mind, that is his trait.

[Klystron]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

eschilde wrote...

@Klystron
I don't believe Loghain is only ordering your execution out of spite.. it's pragmatic, the same reason Bhelen orders Harrowmont executed, or Anora orders Alistair executed, given the same situation. The fact remains that you have caused him an equal (or greater) amount of trouble as he has caused you. Both of you have perfectly legitimate reasons to want the other one dead. Not to mention, Loghain doesn't have an alternate sentence, so to speak. There is no alternative to your death, whereas for him being conscripted into the GWs is an option.

I call BS on this one.

So Loghain killing you is "smart and pragmatic", but you killing him isn't? What kind of messed up logic is that? He could have thrown you into the jail. He could have forced you to swear loyalty. He could have sent you to the fron lines to die.

ty

I have only seen the word "exile" once or twice in this whole thread, but (given my limited knowledge of history) it was a fairly common practice for dealing with high-ranking nobles, hero generals, etc. 
Probably it wasn't given as an option here because it left things in too ambiguous a state, but I certainly found myself looking for an option somewhere between the extremes of "kill him" and "make him a buddy"...

[Kohaku]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...



I read that RtO blurrs the lines even further, and it could very well be that Cailan was on the verge of comitting the ultimate betrayal: Handing over Ferelden to the Empress of Orlais on a silver platter. Not only that, but Eamon seems to have encouraged it. And to think that I liked Eamon. I don't anymore, and I wish I could leave him unconscious on his bed in perpetuity. At least he can't do much harm in that state. Talk about self-interest. Eamon has boat-loads, and is very hypocritical when musing that Loghain has become 'power-mad'.

Why did you like Eamon? For one he never really cared about Alistair. Only the Theirin blood mattered to him. If Morrigan was a bastard child of Maric, he would probably have tried to persuade the Landsmeet to accept her as queen.

Secondly, he was blinded by the Theirin legacy to see that both Cailan and Alistair are not good king material.

Messed up quotes there.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So, how is killing Loghain putting the blight above vengeance? Simply it is not. Despite what you might think he is a better warrior then Alistair and a good general.

Debatable. I can ask you how is SPARING Loghain any better?

Simply put, it's not. It's a strawman.
People are trying to make a direct connection between Loghains fate and fighting the Blight, as if hte very act is a show of treason/support of the Wardens. That's bollocks.
It's a completley separate issue.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Not really. The Grey Wardens must also remain politically neutral. Killing an Arl out of vengeance is as bad as what Sophia Dryden did.

I said "taking vengance", not "run into his home and butcher him". Vengance can come in many forms. It can also be lawful land sanctioned. Having him hanged by hte king is also vengance.

[Costin_Razvan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So, how is killing Loghain putting the blight above vengeance? Simply it is not. Despite what you might think he is a better warrior then Alistair and a good general.

Debatable. I can ask you how is SPARING Loghain any better?

Simply put, it's not. It's a strawman.
People are trying to make a direct connection between Loghains fate and fighting the Blight, as if hte very act is a show of treason/support of the Wardens. That's bollocks.
It's a completley separate issue.

Let's see, sparring him gives you the full support of the population ( which is quite a big thing ), a general who can help you plan the battle.  You can think of him what you will, but the point is he never lost a real battle ( Ostagar was Cailan's foolish battle, not Loghain's ) , just the political one and if you choose to follow Morrigan's deal you get a good recruiter.

So how is killing him anything but vengeance?

[AaronRiley08]

I myself cannot read all 35 pages of replies and if my arguments have been stated im sorry and also keep in mind these are not for the prosecution or defense of loghain.

1 Due to the lack of pretty much any dead bodies in the tower i cannot believe that loghain had men stationed there, while i do admit that the ogre was munching on something



2 Temporary insanity has been used as an alibi before so why does loghain have to be insane or not at all, people do irrational things out of fear or desperation and sometimes shaking them or giving them a hard whack on the helmet in loghains case makes them see reality and the error of their ways



3 Many horrible things have been done in the name of country -look at hitler



4 one of the loading scenes in the game clearly states that loghain pulled his troops from a what should have been a deciscive battle and left the king to die



5 The whole point of the beacon was because he wasnt where he could see the battle, so therefore he should have charged in.



6 The fact that he sided with howe and tried to have the wardens killed in my opinion pretty much showes that he is trying to tie up lose ends because seriously, he has darkspawn to the south and a civil war on his hands why would he go to such lengths in the middle of all this and focus on TWO grey wardens instead of dealing with the main problems first and dealing with the "traitors" after he was finished like any rational person



7 We do not know that the kingdom would have fallen apart with Cailan and no Anora, even alistar made a decent king in the end



While i do not believe that Loghain is evil he has so many damning actions that i cannot bring myself to let him live yet, which also means that i dont know anything about his actions or what he says for the last battle

[Kohaku]

@Sabriana - This is why I'm dying to see RTO. I might go back on one of my old saves to recruit Loghain just to trot him over there. What I love is that everyone sees different sides to this one guy. Mine is changing.



@Costin_Razvan - That's why I think I like him so much. He's not one just to shut up and follow like someone else we have in our fold.

[ReubenLiew]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...
@Costin_Razvan - That's why I think I like him so much. He's not one just to shut up and follow like someone else we have in our fold.

*gasp*! Don't talk about Sten like that!