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The Complete Defense of Loghain Mac Tir


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#876
Gimmemocha

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

So, how is killing Loghain putting the blight above vengeance? Simply it is not. Despite what you might think he is a better warrior then Alistair and a good general.


1)  My character doesn't need a general on her team, she needs fighters she can trust.  She doesn't trust Loghain.  Cailan might have been an idiot, but that doesn't excuse treason especially when my character has no way of knowing whether or not Loghain's troops would have turned the tide of battle and kept Cailan alive.  And even if he thought they wouldn't, orders are orders.  Loghain disobeyed orders from his direct superior in the middle of a battle once; none of my characters would trust him not to do it again and abandon me just when I needed him most. 

2) Despite what you might think, in my games Alistair has (on the 2 occassions I let him fight Loghain at Landsmeet instead of doing it myself) beaten Loghain.  So in my games, Alistair's the better warrior. ;)  He's more skilled, he's a proven component of my strike teams, and he's trustworthy. 

Once it's clear I have to pick either Loghain or Alistair, I go with Alistair.  Remember, as a Grey Warden you don't even know if Loghain's going to survive the Joining when you have to make the choice.  Heading into a huge battle against the Archdemon isn't the time to have someone beside you whose skills you don't know and can't trust.

Cailan's idiocy doesn't change any of that.

#877
Lotion Soronarr

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Let's see, sparring him gives you the full support of the population ( which is quite a big thing ),


NO. That's bollocks. There's more and mroe peopel growign to hate him - teh evels and the family and friends of al lthe peopel he wronged...and there were MANY.


a general who can help you plan the battle.  You can think of him what you will, but the point is he never lost a real battle ( Ostagar was Cailan's foolish battle, not Loghain's ) , just the political one


Ferelden has several generals, he's not irreplacable. I don't recall him poffering any tactical plans. He loses his position as a general if recruited BTW. YOU, the PC are the general. Not him.



and if you choose to follow Morrigan's deal you get a good recruiter.


And if I put Al on the throne I get a good king. Metagame knowledge.


So how is killing him anything but vengeance?


Because he's a heap of trouble, unstable (or crazy) and a liability.
In the words of the Dwarven Noble "You hear that Gorrim? Do the proudent thing."
*opponent dies*

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:47 .


#878
Costin_Razvan

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Loghain had men stationed there. Who do you think are the few soldiers that join you? Or the ones who are killed by the darkspawn in the courtyard.



For the second: It was not insanity, it was a logical course of action based on what he knew.



For the third: Many many rulers, including Truman, Saladin, Alexander etc. etc. etc. Have done terrible things, I could count on my right hand the leaders that I know that didn't do bad ****.



The loading screen shows what your character knows. In Return to Ostagar it is proven that the battle was lost before it even began.

#879
Apophis2412

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AaronRiley08 wrote...

I myself cannot read all 35 pages of replies and if my arguments have been stated im sorry and also keep in mind these are not for the prosecution or defense of loghain.
1 Due to the lack of pretty much any dead bodies in the tower i cannot believe that loghain had men stationed there, while i do admit that the ogre was munching on something

2 Temporary insanity has been used as an alibi before so why does loghain have to be insane or not at all, people do irrational things out of fear or desperation and sometimes shaking them or giving them a hard whack on the helmet in loghains case makes them see reality and the error of their ways

3 Many horrible things have been done in the name of country -look at hitler

4 one of the loading scenes in the game clearly states that loghain pulled his troops from a what should have been a deciscive battle and left the king to die

5 The whole point of the beacon was because he wasnt where he could see the battle, so therefore he should have charged in.

6 The fact that he sided with howe and tried to have the wardens killed in my opinion pretty much showes that he is trying to tie up lose ends because seriously, he has darkspawn to the south and a civil war on his hands why would he go to such lengths in the middle of all this and focus on TWO grey wardens instead of dealing with the main problems first and dealing with the "traitors" after he was finished like any rational person

7 We do not know that the kingdom would have fallen apart with Cailan and no Anora, even alistar made a decent king in the end

While i do not believe that Loghain is evil he has so many damning actions that i cannot bring myself to let him live yet, which also means that i dont know anything about his actions or what he says for the last battle



1. There are a lot of bodies in the tower. Not to mention the guards you see fighting the Darkspawn outside the tower.

2. Interesting.

3. Yes, but also many good things.

4. Yes Cailan wanted it the Blight ended in a single glorious battle. However, RTO proves that this was a foolish idea.

5. You fogret however that the beacon was lit far to late. By then Loghain must have already guessed the battle was lost.

7. Yes we do. In whatever ending Alistair rules he is always supported by a more powerful person, be it Eamon, Anora or the player.

#880
Wildhide

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So, how is killing Loghain putting the blight above vengeance? Simply it is not. Despite what you might think he is a better warrior then Alistair and a good general.


Debatable. I can ask you how is SPARING Loghain any better?

Simply put, it's not. It's a strawman.
People are trying to make a direct connection between Loghains fate and fighting the Blight, as if hte very act is a show of treason/support of the Wardens. That's bollocks.
It's a completley separate issue.


Let's see, sparring him gives you the full support of the population ( which is quite a big thing ), a general who can help you plan the battle.  You can think of him what you will, but the point is he never lost a real battle ( Ostagar was Cailan's foolish battle, not Loghain's ) , just the political one and if you choose to follow Morrigan's deal you get a good recruiter.

So how is killing him anything but vengeance?


I would wager you'd lose as many supporters as you might gain by having Loghain.   He's not as well loved as you are implying, especially not with his recent behavior.

#881
Costin_Razvan

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Lotion Soronnar wrote..

NO. That's bollocks. There's more and mroe peopel growign to hate him - teh evels and the family and friends of al lthe peopel he wronged...and there were MANY.


Go the tavern and ask for rumors after sparring or killing Loghain. If you spare him he will say most people are relieved he didn't die, if you kill him he says most people are angry.


Ferelden has several generals, he's not irreplacable. I don't recall him poffering any tactical plans. He loses his position as a general if recruited BTW. YOU, the PC are the general. Not him.


And which of those Fereldan Generals beat a Legion of Chevaliers with nothing but a few Legionnaires of the dead and badly armed farmers? Loghain did that. Which General almost won a civil war against heavy odds? Loghain. True you are the general, but lossing a tactical advantage like him is downright foolish.

And if I put Al on the throne I get a good king. Metagame knowledge.


If you put Anora on the throne you get a good Queen. What trade increased, a university built, laws passed to increase harvests, the army reformed? Against what?!! A ****ing elf in the king's court?!


Because he's a heap of trouble, unstable (or crazy) and a liability.
In the words of the Dwarven Noble "You hear that Gorrim? Do the proudent thing."
*opponent dies*



Is he now? Did you ever spare him? He seems quite reasonable in what he says as companion, he realizes what he did quite well and even regrets it.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:54 .


#882
Lotion Soronarr

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Loghain had men stationed there. Who do you think are the few soldiers that join you? Or the ones who are killed by the darkspawn in the courtyard.


Waht? Do you think they dissaper if Loghin is executed? Thet they say "**** tihs" and leave? You get those men either way. Those men have their own officers (like ser Cauthrien) to whem they report and they report also to the Landsmeet and hte king.


For the second: It was not insanity, it was a logical course of action based on what he knew.


Debatable. I say he's insane.


For the third: Many many rulers, including Truman, Saladin, Alexander etc. etc. etc. Have done terrible things, I could count on my right hand the leaders that I know that didn't do bad ****.


Irrelvant. Want me to mention Hitler or Stalin? I could care less about what some other ruler did. They are not the ones on trial. If they were, I'd probably be executing them in-game, not Loghain.
Actions of others don't excuse your own.

The loading screen shows what your character knows. In Return to Ostagar it is proven that the battle was lost before it even began.


Of course it was, Loghain was workign agaisnt Cailan long before the battle started.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 14 janvier 2010 - 01:55 .


#883
Kohaku

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ReubenLiew wrote...

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...
@Costin_Razvan - That's why I think I like him so much. He's not one just to shut up and follow like someone else we have in our fold.


*gasp*! Don't talk about Sten like that!


I love Sten. He's my bodyguard! ~Hugs Sten and he pats her on the head~

#884
AaronRiley08

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5- who said that the beacon had to be lit instantly? for all we know the signal could have been sent shortly before i never recall seeing anything about when the signal was sent just the fact that it was assumed that it was sent so they lit the beacon.



definitly granted on point 7

#885
Gimmemocha

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Costin_Razvan wrote...Is he now? Did you ever spare him? He seems quite reasonable in what he says as companion, he realizes what he did quite well and even regrets it.


Ah, but what he says AFTER you save him is only something your character knows AFTER the choice is made.  At the time you have to make the choice, even his daughter is calling him crazy and power-mad.

Of course, she's one to talk...

#886
Lotion Soronarr

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Apophis2412 wrote...
7. Yes we do. In whatever ending Alistair rules he is always supported by a more powerful person, be it Eamon, Anora or the player.


Yes, because that's what any smart king would do. Sorround yourself with competent people.

#887
Costin_Razvan

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You know what. I am going to issue a challenge to all thse anti-Loghain people.



Pick up a Total War Game ( any of them ) and lead your nation past turn 60, then come back and post your feelings about Loghain.

#888
AaronRiley08

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I have to say that Loghain making himself regent instead of king does not imply that he is not power hungry it just showes that he was being somewhat tactical if he would have returned from ostagar and said hey im the new king it would have arroused wayyy more suspicions and would have made alot more people angry which would have caused a larger revolt

#889
Sabriana

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ReubenLiew wrote...

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...
@Costin_Razvan - That's why I think I like him so much. He's not one just to shut up and follow like someone else we have in our fold.


*gasp*! Don't talk about Sten like that!


Rofl. You're a very funny person.

I was actually the one who said "And to think I liked him" meaning Eamon. He sort of struck me as a man who would put the welfare of his country first. Not anymore. Not by a long-shot. He is determined to get rid of Anora for his own personal gains by any means possible, even down to handing over Ferelden to its former oppressor.

@ Lotion Soronnar

This is getting circular and I will not engage in a circular discussion. The sentence is as it stands. My PC is not a GW yet, she's the daughter of a massacred house, so the Sophia Dryden argument doesn't fit in. (I know you didn't say this, Apophis2412 did).

The fact that you disagree proves nothing. The simple act of disagreeing never has proven anything, ever. I can disagree that the world is round even with rock-solid evidence staring me in the face.

When Duncan states that the Blight stands higher than anything else, that's what he meant. Period. That's how it is written, that's how I read it, and that's how I understand it. There is nothing to interpret, the sentence is clear. One of the few clear sentences surrounding this game and its underpinnings.

There were no disclaimers, no hesitations, no buts, no ifs, and no ands. It is a short, concise sentence.

#890
SurelyForth

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Gimmemocha wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

So, how is killing Loghain putting the blight above vengeance? Simply it is not. Despite what you might think he is a better warrior then Alistair and a good general.


1)  My character doesn't need a general on her team, she needs fighters she can trust.  She doesn't trust Loghain.  Cailan might have been an idiot, but that doesn't excuse treason especially when my character has no way of knowing whether or not Loghain's troops would have turned the tide of battle and kept Cailan alive.  And even if he thought they wouldn't, orders are orders.  Loghain disobeyed orders from his direct superior in the middle of a battle once; none of my characters would trust him not to do it again and abandon me just when I needed him most. 

2) Despite what you might think, in my games Alistair has (on the 2 occassions I let him fight Loghain at Landsmeet instead of doing it myself) beaten Loghain.  So in my games, Alistair's the better warrior. ;)  He's more skilled, he's a proven component of my strike teams, and he's trustworthy. 

Once it's clear I have to pick either Loghain or Alistair, I go with Alistair.  Remember, as a Grey Warden you don't even know if Loghain's going to survive the Joining when you have to make the choice.  Heading into a huge battle against the Archdemon isn't the time to have someone beside you whose skills you don't know and can't trust.

Cailan's idiocy doesn't change any of that.


This, especially the first point, is exactly why I have a hard time justifying sparing Loghain, especially knowing that it will cause Alistair to walk. Even with Return to Ostagar somewhat backing up his paranoia, he still should not immediately assume that you are also in on some big conspiracy to hand Ferelden over to Orlais. He flat out accuses YOU of wanting to bring in Orlesian forces when you have done nothing to make him think that, and his last speech at the Landsmeet reinforces this.  He might swear an oath to the Wardens, but that does not make him beholden to you or your companions. I feel like there is always potential for him to turn on you once you spare him, even if he doesn't in the game.

As for Alistair, for all his handwringing, he has exactly one breaking point and he has been completely up front about how much he despises Loghain and how Loghain deserves to die. You can do a million magnificently soul crushing things and if he is in your group he will fight beside you because you are his leader. I really can't blame him for leaving when, the first time he really needs you to show some loyalty to him, you ignore his pleas. My human noble would do the same if Riordan suggested Howe be made a Warden and Alistair ordered it done. Sometimes feelings really can't be put aside, and there really is no reason to think (at that point) that one more Warden, even one of Loghain's abilities, would make an appreciable difference in the outcome against the Blight.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 14 janvier 2010 - 02:48 .


#891
Costin_Razvan

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Its not metagaming if you consider the choices laid to you at the time. Rirordan has a reason and by refusing to do it you are going against what the Grey Wardens are ( the only reason he doesn't try more is he knows Alistair will leave no matter what ). Alistair doesn't betray you, he betrays the Grey Wardens, and what Duncan believed in. As if what the order is doesn't matter anything to him, even though he is trying to do this to claim vengeance for the wardens.

Duncan would stop Alistair from leaving, he would force him to stay.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 02:57 .


#892
Sabriana

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Frankly, my PC needs to do enough hand-holding, mothering, and pat-patting for Alistair throughout the game. He is so fragile that my PC has to walk on egg-shells during conversation, so as to not hurt his feelings. She will not say anything against her own feelings and morals, but she tries to be more or less neutral. She is not romancing him, because he's far too childish for her tastes, but she still tries to be nice to him.

Although, I must say, if she had the option to slap him across the face when he asks her whether she had someone close to her die, I'd let her. Hello? You know that almost her whole family was recently massacred. But no, Alistair 'forgot'.

Not to mention that he puts all responsibility squarely on her shoulders, and even admits that he rather follow than make decisions. Therefore, he has little right to then go and question those decisions that my PC makes during the game.

Loghain, well, that's up to the player, but Alistair's behavior is treason and betrayal in my eyes. He leaves when the country is in desperate need of him. If he only left my PC but still fought for Ferelden, then it would be a completely different matter. So no, Alistair and his needs and wants do not figure in at all in my PC's decision making process regarding Loghain.

He lived once, and my PC allowed him to die for Ferelden.

He died once, because my PC thought it safer.

It depends on the game and the RP I'm engaging in whether Loghain lives or dies, but Alistair is a non-entity in that decision. What does figure in is the knowledge my PC might have about Loghain's past and the huge role he played in freeing Ferelden from oppression.

My HN was highly suspicious about Loghain's role in the massacre at Highever (I know, D.Gaider dispelled that notion somewhere in this thread), but she still let him live. Her family was on Loghain's side during the rebellion and loyal to the rightful king.

Loghain remained a hero to many in Ferelden, and commander or not, it assured me of the loyalty of his troops. Loghain swore an oath to never let Ferelden fall into foreign hands no matter what, and he tried to fulfill that oath. He thought he did the right thing, but everything spiraled out of control rather quickly and he thought he had to stick with it because it could not be undone. The die was cast as D. Gaider so eloquently put it.

My HN knows enough about politics and warfare that she will do what's best for the country, just as she promised her dying father. Vengeance can come later. After the Blight. Because if the Blight is not stopped, there will be no 'afterward'. Ever.

It was different with my mage, who knows as much about politics and warfaring as my neighbor's canary. She was more worried about a possible betrayal by Loghain, because she knew next to nothing about him. She also romanced Alistair (my poor, silly, betrayed mage) at the time, and didn't want to go against him. She knew Alistair to be a great fighter, but she knew no such thing about Loghain. So Loghain dies.

However, he will not die this time around either. The mage was my first and completely unspoiled play-through, and will also be the one and only time that Alistair will ever figure even remotely into that decision. I will see how this PC develops, but she's been on the logical and reasonable side so far. Loghain will not die at her (or Alistiar's) hands, but it remains to be seen whether he may sacrifice himself, or is condemned to not only be what he tried to kill off, but strengthen their numbers and take part in their training. Ending with him having to travel the Deep Roads in the end.

It also depends on whether I decide to purchase RtO or not. So far, I'm on the 'No' side, but that could change, the further I research the DLC.

Modifié par Sabriana, 14 janvier 2010 - 03:22 .


#893
Gimmemocha

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Its not metagaming if you consider the choices laid to you at the time. Rirordan has a reason and by refusing to do it you are going against what the Grey Wardens are ( the only reason he doesn't try more is he knows Alistair will leave no matter what ). Alistair doesn't betray you, he betrays the Grey Wardens, and what Duncan believed in. As if what the order is doesn't matter anything to him, even though he is trying to do this to claim vengeance for the wardens.

Duncan would stop Alistair from leaving, he would force him to stay.


You're not going against what the Grey Wardens are.  Stop the Blight, that's what the Grey Wardens are.  Whether you think Loghain or Alistair is better suited to helping you achieve that goal is a personal choice.  Note that Riordan just suggests it as a possibility, he doesn't object if you don't do it.  He doesn't tell you "Choose Loghain or else you're not a real Grey Warden."  

And it may have been what Duncan would do, but none of my characters are Duncan.  And yet, they still manage to stop the Blight.  And have been managing to lead the offensive against the Darkspawn quite effectively without him.  For the months and months since Ostagar, the MC has been making all the decisions based on his or her own judgement, and (presumably) doing just fine.  I see no reason to abandon that judgement to Riordan at the end of it all.

Even if he is awfully cute.Image IPB

#894
Costin_Razvan

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Riordan doesn't object because he knows Alistair will leave.

Its also not just about Duncan, for example how do you think he got recruited? Pardon, conscripted? He was a lowly street thief in Orlais. In fact the Dwarf Commoner and City Elf have criminal stories ( the dwarf noble can have it also, along with the mage ).

If you want to kill Loghain just because you believe Alistair is better suited ( which he is not, as everything shows ) then I can respect that. However I cannot respect all the idiots who judge Loghain, that is definitely not what a Grey Warden is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 03:48 .


#895
robertthebard

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Using Alistair as a base line for sparing or killing Loghain is really a bad point. From the outset, Alistair's goal is to kill Loghain. Alistair is far from honest, despite the people that will claim that he's justified in lying to you, and depending on when and how you do Redcliffe, how long he carries that lie. He couldn't care less about what the MC has gone through, his loss is the only thing that motivates him. His apology about "forgetting" that the HN lost their entire family means just about as much as the apology from the bandit at Lothering for being a criminal. He's not sorry he did it, he just wants the MC to overlook it.



And yet, people will say that Morrigan has lied, and that her crisis point, just when people think they need her the most, is evil. Unfortunately, you can ask Morrigan to leave at any point you wish to. You cannot do this with Alistair. This despite the fact that Alistair isn't needed to successfully play the game. He is easily replaced with the MC going sword and board, and even if not, I have Sten able to tank w/out a respec, staying with his initial 2h build. Better or worse is a moot point, he can get, and maintain threat. If we have to use more pots, or if I have to spec Morrigan with a heal, he can still carry my party as the tank. Meaning that Alistair's meaningful contribution to my party is cooking, and showing up at Castle Redcliffe to whine about having to be King.



Neither Alistair, Morrigan or Loghain are Paragons of Virtue. Regarding approval/disapproval from party members, if I reject Blood Magic, and kill Connor at Redcliffe, I take the single biggest approval hit in game from Alistair. -20 for a decision that he suggests if he's with you. The hit from Morrigan for destroying the Anvil? -1. I have done the Circle with Morrigan and saved the mages with no hit, and only took a -1 hit for not having the blood mage kill the elves for my personal gain.



So, if I decide to spare Loghain, and Alistair leaves, or dies, I'm not out anything, barring having one extra GW to fight the Archdemon. However, the reverse of the typical logic of "We've been doing just fine w/out Loghain" applies, since I have literally been doing just fine w/out Alistair.

#896
Duncan Hills Coffee

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you should at least conscript him once for the party member achievment

#897
Gimmemocha

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robertthebard wrote...So, if I decide to spare Loghain, and Alistair leaves, or dies, I'm not out anything, barring having one extra GW to fight the Archdemon. However, the reverse of the typical logic of "We've been doing just fine w/out Loghain" applies, since I have literally been doing just fine w/out Alistair.


The "doing just fine without Loghain" is only in response to the suggestion that the MC wouldn't be fulfilling her duties as a Grey Warden if she kills Loghain.  This is patently untrue, since the Blight is stoppable without him and the MC has been doing fine without him. 

#898
SurelyForth

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Its not metagaming if you consider the choices laid to you at the time. Rirordan has a reason and by refusing to do it you are going against what the Grey Wardens are ( the only reason he doesn't try more is he knows Alistair will leave no matter what ). Alistair doesn't betray you, he betrays the Grey Wardens, and what Duncan believed in. As if what the order is doesn't matter anything to him, even though he is trying to do this to claim vengeance for the wardens.

Duncan would stop Alistair from leaving, he would force him to stay.


I rejected Riordan's reasons the first time he made them, not knowing how it would play out otherwise. For all I was called THE Grey Warden, my actions were defined less by being a Grey Warden (I didn't really have a choice to become one, after all) and more by my own sense of what was right and wrong and who I felt would serve best by my side against the Blight. I basically redefined what being a Warden meant and, because I didn't know any other way, not letting Loghain join was a very easy decision.

As for Alistair abandoning the Wardens, I feel the same way about him as I did my first PC. He was quite blinded by his hero worship of Duncan and his relief at being freed from the Chantry so he never really scratched the surface of what being a Warden really implied. His attitudes don't completely jibe with what being a Warden is, despite his pride in being one. I mean, he outright says that he doesn't really believe letting a hundred people die so that a thousand can live is justifiable.

Had Duncan survived in the PC's place, I think Alistair would have become hardened beyond anything you can do to him once things started getting dire and he saw the extremes Wardens would go to to stop the spread of the taint/darkspawn, things that the PC doesn't get to/have to do. That Alistair would have arrived at the Landsmeet with a very different understanding of how the Wardens operate. Duncan wouldn't have had to force Alistair to stay, because he would have already trained him to focus on the big picture at all costs and, thus, Alistair wouldn't have threatened to leave in the first place. The PC has to have a far less militant approach in order to suceed and, as a result, the Alistair you end up with also has a different interpretation of what being a Grey Warden is.

Mind you, I know why people hate him and I can totally see the other side of the argument.  

#899
Tirigon

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KnightofPhoenix wrote..
Sadly, people need to feel like they are paladins in order to enjoy the game.


I´m a PALADIN!!!!!!!!!

I got a bubble that makes me INVULNERABLE!!!!!!!!

I ROCK!!!!!!!

MAY TEH FIRE PURIFY YOU ALL, DIRTY HEATHENS!!!!!!!  I AM TEH DIVINE FLAME OF JUSTICE, I SHALL PURGE YOU FOR YOUR SINS!!!!!!!
PURIFICATION!
HOLYNESS!!!!!!!!
FOR LORDAERON!!!!  (EHM, I MEAN, FOR FERELDEN AND TEH MAKER!!!!!)


That´s it. Paladins are ftl.

#900
Tirigon

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Duncan Hills Coffee wrote...

you should at least conscript him once for the party member achievment



True. This ends the discussion.

In short: Loghain sucks, get the achievement and f*ck him in your other playthroughs.