1429 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Gimmemocha wrote...

robertthebard wrote...So, if I decide to spare Loghain, and Alistair leaves, or dies, I'm not out anything, barring having one extra GW to fight the Archdemon. However, the reverse of the typical logic of "We've been doing just fine w/out Loghain" applies, since I have literally been doing just fine w/out Alistair.

The "doing just fine without Loghain" is only in response to the suggestion that the MC wouldn't be fulfilling her duties as a Grey Warden if she kills Loghain.  This is patently untrue, since the Blight is stoppable without him and the MC has been doing fine without him. 

Which then gives the lie to Duncan out recruiting with at least 3x as many GW's as you have at the Landsmeet, doesn't it?  He's desperate enough for recruits to conscript Dwarf Commoner, and City Elf, to blackmail Bryce Cousland for HN, and to take a mage that helped a Blood Mage escape the tower.  He's in all these locations looking for recruits, after all.  So his logic is indeed "the more the merrier", which is carried on by Riordan at the Landsmeet.  That's all his suggestion is, "the more the merrier".  Which we do find out at Redcliffe is true.  It also means that needing Alistair is untrue, since you can indeed do the whole game with Alistair sitting in camp, barring his guest starring role at Redcliffe, and the fact that he is plot required at the Landsmeet.

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

being a good person and doing your duty often end up clashing with you internally.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Riordan doesn't object because he knows Alistair will leave.

Its also not just about Duncan, for example how do you think he got recruited? Pardon, conscripted? He was a lowly street thief in Orlais. In fact the Dwarf Commoner and City Elf have criminal stories ( the dwarf noble can have it also, along with the mage ).

If you want to kill Loghain just because you believe Alistair is better suited ( which he is not, as everything shows ) then I can respect that. However I cannot respect all the idiots who judge Loghain, that is definitely not what a Grey Warden is.

You don´t necessarily play as Warden, though. I usually RP a char who is there because he was forced to and wants to finish that sh*t, so he can enjoy his life again. That you are a Warden is nothing but a name. You got your training before, you got your personality before, and unless your PC is in love or friendship with Alistair you really have no connection to the wardens at all.

So, in short: Get a life, you are no warden, you don´t need to act like one.

[Gimmemocha]

robertthebard wrote...

Gimmemocha wrote...

robertthebard wrote...So, if I decide to spare Loghain, and Alistair leaves, or dies, I'm not out anything, barring having one extra GW to fight the Archdemon. However, the reverse of the typical logic of "We've been doing just fine w/out Loghain" applies, since I have literally been doing just fine w/out Alistair.

The "doing just fine without Loghain" is only in response to the suggestion that the MC wouldn't be fulfilling her duties as a Grey Warden if she kills Loghain.  This is patently untrue, since the Blight is stoppable without him and the MC has been doing fine without him. 

Which then gives the lie to Duncan out recruiting with at least 3x as many GW's as you have at the Landsmeet, doesn't it?  He's desperate enough for recruits to conscript Dwarf Commoner, and City Elf, to blackmail Bryce Cousland for HN, and to take a mage that helped a Blood Mage escape the tower.  He's in all these locations looking for recruits, after all.  So his logic is indeed "the more the merrier", which is carried on by Riordan at the Landsmeet.  That's all his suggestion is, "the more the merrier".  Which we do find out at Redcliffe is true.  It also means that needing Alistair is untrue, since you can indeed do the whole game with Alistair sitting in camp, barring his guest starring role at Redcliffe, and the fact that he is plot required at the Landsmeet.

It doesn't give lie to it at all.  Given the choice, having BOTH Loghain and Alistair would be preferable.  But you can't.  You have to choose.  And no matter which one you choose, you stop the Blight.

And no one ever tried to claim you NEED Alistair, only that you must choose Loghain over Alistair or you're untrue to the Grey Wardens.

[robertthebard]

Gimmemocha wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Gimmemocha wrote...

robertthebard wrote...So, if I decide to spare Loghain, and Alistair leaves, or dies, I'm not out anything, barring having one extra GW to fight the Archdemon. However, the reverse of the typical logic of "We've been doing just fine w/out Loghain" applies, since I have literally been doing just fine w/out Alistair.

The "doing just fine without Loghain" is only in response to the suggestion that the MC wouldn't be fulfilling her duties as a Grey Warden if she kills Loghain.  This is patently untrue, since the Blight is stoppable without him and the MC has been doing fine without him. 

Which then gives the lie to Duncan out recruiting with at least 3x as many GW's as you have at the Landsmeet, doesn't it?  He's desperate enough for recruits to conscript Dwarf Commoner, and City Elf, to blackmail Bryce Cousland for HN, and to take a mage that helped a Blood Mage escape the tower.  He's in all these locations looking for recruits, after all.  So his logic is indeed "the more the merrier", which is carried on by Riordan at the Landsmeet.  That's all his suggestion is, "the more the merrier".  Which we do find out at Redcliffe is true.  It also means that needing Alistair is untrue, since you can indeed do the whole game with Alistair sitting in camp, barring his guest starring role at Redcliffe, and the fact that he is plot required at the Landsmeet.

It doesn't give lie to it at all.  Given the choice, having BOTH Loghain and Alistair would be preferable.  But you can't.  You have to choose.  And no matter which one you choose, you stop the Blight.

And no one ever tried to claim you NEED Alistair, only that you must choose Loghain over Alistair or you're untrue to the Grey Wardens.

My thoughts have always been it doesn't matter which one you choose.  Either is easily role playable.  Not everyone has puppy eyes for Alistair, and the writers evidently knew that would be the case, since you can choose "It's about time" if Alistair gets killed.  I'm not saying you have to do one or the other, or you're playing wrong.  I'm just pointing out the fallacy that Alistair is required, which has indeed been some poster's position.

[Sabriana]

SurelyForth wrote...

As for Alistair abandoning the Wardens, I feel the same way about him as I did my first PC. He was quite blinded by his hero worship of Duncan and his relief at being freed from the Chantry so he never really scratched the surface of what being a Warden really implied. His attitudes don't completely jibe with what being a Warden is, despite his pride in being one. I mean, he outright says that he doesn't really believe letting a hundred people die so that a thousand can live is justifiable.

Had Duncan survived in the PC's place, I think Alistair would have become hardened beyond anything you can do to him once things started getting dire and he saw the extremes Wardens would go to to stop the spread of the taint/darkspawn, things that the PC doesn't get to/have to do. That Alistair would have arrived at the Landsmeet with a very different understanding of how the Wardens operate. Duncan wouldn't have had to force Alistair to stay, because he would have already trained him to focus on the big picture at all costs and, thus, Alistair wouldn't have threatened to leave in the first place. The PC has to have a far less militant approach in order to suceed and, as a result, the Alistair you end up with also has a different interpretation of what being a Grey Warden is.

Mind you, I know why people hate him and I can totally see the other side of the argument.  

Had Duncan survived, the PC and Alistair would also know that the slayer of the archdemon dies as well. That alone could have made a huge difference in Alistair's behavior, even though I doubt it. I doubted his intentions very early on. At Flemeth's hut to be precise.

PC: "We need to stop the Blight somehow"
Alistair: "We need to bring Loghain to justice"

Another very telling conversation:

Alistair: "How did he think he (Loghain) could get away with murder?"
Flemeth: "You think he is the only king to ever try and take a throne that way? Grow up boy."

So no, Alistair's feelings and reasonings have no impact in my PC's decision regarding Loghain's fate. Aside from that, the harping on "Riordan only made the suggestion" is not exactly what it appears to be. taken out of context. Riordan thought that the PC and Alistair knew about the sacrifice. He even says so, and apologizes for assuming that Duncan had told them that.

Riordan didn't want to go against the PC, and he certainly didn't want to publicly state that fact given the secrecy the GWs surround themselves with. But I have no doubt that he was surprised at Alistair's outburst, and threats of leaving. That would negate any pro's in using Loghain, they would still be only 3 GW. So he says no more. He's a practical man, and if taking Loghain on board would gain nothing, well, then so be it.

Remember, Riordan does not know that the PC and Alistair are ignorant of the fact that GW must die. Only a GW can slay the archdemon, and the odds of accomplishing just that would rise with Loghain in the fold. There would be 4 chances instead of 3. In that situation, every single GW counts.

Yes, there are others who could be conscripted, but there are also many reasons why that should not be. I wouldn't want to subject any of my companions to the ritual and risk their death. Aside from liking many of them, the odds that my PC would lose an able fighter are too high.

Modifié par Sabriana, 14 janvier 2010 - 04:35 .

[Gimmemocha]

robertthebard wrote...

My thoughts have always been it doesn't matter which one you choose.  Either is easily role playable.  Not everyone has puppy eyes for Alistair, and the writers evidently knew that would be the case, since you can choose "It's about time" if Alistair gets killed.  I'm not saying you have to do one or the other, or you're playing wrong.  I'm just pointing out the fallacy that Alistair is required, which has indeed been some poster's position.

Yeah, anyone who tries to claim EITHER of them is necessary is wrong.  I've left Ali behind at the gates before and gone after the archdemon myself.  Sure I died, but they weren't necessary.  

I think most everyone (with a few recent exceptions) knows that it boils down to personal choice.  The interesting debate, to me, is why people choose what they choose.  That's what I've been having fun with.

[robertthebard]

Gimmemocha wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

My thoughts have always been it doesn't matter which one you choose.  Either is easily role playable.  Not everyone has puppy eyes for Alistair, and the writers evidently knew that would be the case, since you can choose "It's about time" if Alistair gets killed.  I'm not saying you have to do one or the other, or you're playing wrong.  I'm just pointing out the fallacy that Alistair is required, which has indeed been some poster's position.

Yeah, anyone who tries to claim EITHER of them is necessary is wrong.  I've left Ali behind at the gates before and gone after the archdemon myself.  Sure I died, but they weren't necessary.  

I think most everyone (with a few recent exceptions) knows that it boils down to personal choice.  The interesting debate, to me, is why people choose what they choose.  That's what I've been having fun with.

Me too.   I especially like my own post here where I justified killing Loghain for trying to kill me as a Dwarf Noble, but also being able to see my way to sparing him despite trying to kill me as a Dwarf Noble.  After all, as far as my Dwarf Noble is concerned, it's politics as usual.

[Costin_Razvan]

Tirigon wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Riordan doesn't object because he knows Alistair will leave.

Its also not just about Duncan, for example how do you think he got recruited? Pardon, conscripted? He was a lowly street thief in Orlais. In fact the Dwarf Commoner and City Elf have criminal stories ( the dwarf noble can have it also, along with the mage ).

If you want to kill Loghain just because you believe Alistair is better suited ( which he is not, as everything shows ) then I can respect that. However I cannot respect all the idiots who judge Loghain, that is definitely not what a Grey Warden is.

You don´t necessarily play as Warden, though. I usually RP a char who is there because he was forced to and wants to finish that sh*t, so he can enjoy his life again. That you are a Warden is nothing but a name. You got your training before, you got your personality before, and unless your PC is in love or friendship with Alistair you really have no connection to the wardens at all.

So, in short: Get a life, you are no warden, you don´t need to act like one.

If you can't take this discusion seriously and bring something usefull then the usual anti-Loghain rant then seriously : SHUT UP

I take the choices of RPG games quite seriously, cause the ones you make reflect on what kind of person you are. Even not carring about them and saying its just a game does reflect quite a lot about you.

Regardless of what argument people bring, there is nothing that will persuade me to kill a man in cold blood before his own daughter. Ask any hardened soldier from Iraq or Afghanistan and they will say the same, and those are people who have seen and dealt death with their own hands.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 05:38 .

[Sabriana]

My PC didn't just learn to do a super-sekkrit handshake to become a Warden, she was forced to drink tainted and magicked up blood. Once you're tainted, you are a Grey Warden, whether you want to be one or not.

What's in store is the nightmares, the quasi-infertility, the sensing and being sensed by darkspawn, and dying after 30 years. The Deep Roads are your destiny, and if you don't go there to get your last bout of glory, you can choose to go insane and turn into a ghoul instead. That's about the only choice the PC has.

Modifié par Sabriana, 14 janvier 2010 - 05:32 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Loghain doesn't have 30 years btw, he has 3 to live.

[Kohaku]

Where did that come from? Is that mentioned in the game?



I seriously have to recruit Loghain now.

[Costin_Razvan]

Kerridan Kaiba wrote...

Where did that come from? Is that mentioned in the game?

I seriously have to recruit Loghain now.

If you choose to sacrifice yourself. it is revealed at the epilogue text.

[JTBehnke]

Um...just a question, that I'm sure has been raised and maybe even answered by this point.



Does the revelation in RTO present any new side to the case? We learn there that Cailan was likely pursuing an affair with the Orlesian empress, and that Eamon was encouraging him to dump Anora for her, as Anora apparently has trouble concieving an heir. Naturally this revelation enrages Loghain. Did Loghain suspect this? If so, that might offer a reason as to why he did what he did. Cailan not only was fraternizing with "the enemy" in his mind, but also abandoning his daughter. Double whammy, that is. And it also might offer an explanation as to why Loghain decided Eamon had to die. Not only would he be the strongest voice of opposition to Loghain's regency, but he was also "leading Cailan astray," if you will.



I don't know if this question's been asked or answered by this point, but I think it certainly adds a new dimension to the debate. Unless of course, the revelation is a complete shocker to Loghain, in which case it serves more as a justification for Loghain's actions instead of a reason.

[Gimmemocha]

Since I don't have RtO yet, I didn't read the rest of your question. So far, I've avoided spoilers and would like to continue to. ;D I know it's the spoiler board so I'm not objecting, just saying. For me, anything that happens in RtO is moot since none of my characters have gone back to Ostagar yet.

[Costin_Razvan]

By his reaction, he probably didn't know, he did suspect I believe.. But RTO gives the reason for his retreat, the battle simply could not be won. Or do you think a Honor Guard and friend of Cailan who fought there himself, would just say that if he didn't think it was so?

[Sabriana]

@ JTBehnke



Loghain didn't want Eamon to die, he just wanted him out of commission. It's posted by D. Gaider around page 17 or 18 in this thread.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If you can't take this discusion seriously and bring something useful then the usual anti-Loghain rant then seriously : SHUT UP

You are obviously not taking this topic serious, but your flaming. Otherwise you wouldn´t call everyone who dislikes Loghain an idiot. And here you ignored a perfectly valid point of me to flame again. You, kind sir or madam, are an EPIC FAIL.

I take the choices of RPG games quite seriously, cause the ones you make reflect on what kind of person you are. Even not carring about them and saying its just a game does reflect quite a lot about you.

So do I. That´s why I kill Loghain every time. I wouldn´t want to show I´m someone who spares tyrants, not even to a game.

Regardless of what argument people bring, there is nothing that will persuade me to kill a man in cold blood before his own daughter. Ask any hardened soldier from Iraq or Afghanistan and they will say the same, and those are people who have seen and dealt death with their own hands.

1. Remember the man we are talking about had NO PROBLEM to sell people as slaves, to abandon thousands for death, to betray his King, and not even to sacrifice his daughter for his plans. While your statement would be perfectly understandable when talking about the average person, this is a different case.

2. The soldiers you talked about had to kill innocents, not people like Loghain. Completely different matter.

3. If you don´t accept any argument anyways, why bothering to flame here? Couldn´t you just do a favor to all of us and GTFO?

[Sabriana]

Shavon wrote...

If only Loghain could have gotten through to Cailan in another way. . .sadly, I don't think that would have been possible.

It wouldn't have been possible. Loghain says so, and it's affirmed by Wynne of all people. Wynne hates Loghain's guts and has no problem telling him and showing him. But she does agree with Loghain on that point. Wynne is one person who has no reason whatsoever to lie for Loghain.

[Slayer299]

Now my understanding of Loghain and Eamon was that Loghain wanted Eamon out of the picture because A) Eamon's wife was from Orlais and B)To get rid of any potential threats to Ferelden. BTW, *where* is everyone finding out all there is to know about RtO? It's not even out yet and I've seen 30 million comments from people with 'supposedly' detailed knowledge of it?

[Costin_Razvan]

Tirigon: Pardon me, but I never called anyone a idiot. If anyone is flaming in this thread it is YOU.

I know PERFECTLY well what war is, unlike you. I know of the blood spilled, the massacres that have occurred, the genocides, the slavery, the families destroyed and the suffering it causes overall. I have studied battles in great detail where generals would commit such attrocities that it would make Howe look like a nice little monkey. I have read of burned villages, raped women and children killed just so the troops would have their morale bolstered.

There is no such thing as HONOR in war, or innocence, or the so called GOOD vs EVIL ****. Both sides are evil, and there is no way you can tell me you are not evil and unethical by killing a man like, regardless of what he did.

I told soldiers the full story behind the choice in the game, they still said they would makes Loghain a Warden, for a person needs to FULLY realize the wrongs of his life, not just die gutted like a pig.

He killed thousands? What bloody proof do you have? He killed soldiers in a civil that was started by the Bannorn, not by him. He only made the sound strategic choice to RETREAT. As for the elves, I don't care, innocents die in war, or do you think that if he had lost the Civil War before the Landsmeet the country would have been so much better? I think ( and history proves me right ) that it would have continued between different nobles, even without Loghain.

If his men were not pulled, they would not necessarily have lost the
battle, but they would have suffered severe losses within the army.
 Well, imo

Really? Considering that Elric ( the guy you meet in RTO ) says the battle could not have been won, with or without Loghain.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 06:15 .

[Tirigon]

Warden24 wrote...

Well, I agree with the OP completely, and I do feel... sympathetic for Loghain. I don't think he betrayed the King, and I think his reasons for hating the Wardens, as skewed as they are, can be justified. One, they DID lead the king out into the thick of battle, the highly outnumbered front lines. Two, Alistair and the PC are trusted to light the beacon, and you fail to do so in an orderly fashion. Loghain standing there, waiting for the beacon only to realize that the battle was MOST LIKELY lost, can only assume one possible outcome; the Wardens delayed on purpose. Now, we know differently, but he didn't.

Actually, You didn´t fail to lit the beacon. It was lit. And the Wardens did not lead the king into the battle, they simply followed his orders. Duncan wanted to wait for Eamons troops and wasn´t fine with the king´s reckless attitude at all.
The PC wasn´t fine with it, either (At least in my case). I always thought Cailan was sort of a retard. He acted like a little child, imo.

[Sabriana]

Slayer299 wrote...

Now my understanding of Loghain and Eamon was that Loghain wanted Eamon out of the picture because A) Eamon's wife was from Orlais and B)To get rid of any potential threats to Ferelden. BTW, *where* is everyone finding out all there is to know about RtO? It's not even out yet and I've seen 30 million comments from people with 'supposedly' detailed knowledge of it?

Well, it's a bit complicated. The xbox 360 version of RtO was released and quite a few people got it and played it. But it turned out that there were major bugs in the released version, so EA/Bioware pulled it again. There is however, no word on the re-release for the xbox, and no word on the release date for the pc.

[Kohaku]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tirigon: Pardon me, but I never called anyone a idiot. If anyone is flaming in this thread it is YOU.

I know PERFECTLY well what war is, unlike you. I know of the blood spilled, the massacres that have occurred, the genocides, the slavery, the families destroyed and the suffering it causes overall. I have studied battles in great detail where generals would commit such attrocities that it would make Howe look like a nice little monkey. I have read of burned villages, raped women and children killed just so the troops would have their morale bolstered.

There is no such thing as HONOR in war, or innocence, or the so called GOOD vs EVIL ****. Both sides are evil, and there is no way you can tell me you are not evil and unethical by killing a man like, regardless of what he did.

I told soldiers the full story behind the choice in the game, they still said they would makes Loghain a Warden, for a person needs to FULLY realize the wrongs of his life, not just die gutted like a pig.

He killed thousands? What bloody proof do you have? He killed soldiers in a civil that was started by the Bannorn, not by him. He only made the sound strategic choice to RETREAT. As for the elves, I don't care, innocents die in war, or do you think that if he had lost the Civil War before the Landsmeet the country would have been so much better? I think ( and history proves me right ) that it would have continued between different nobles, even without Loghain.

If his men were not pulled, they would not necessarily have lost the
battle, but they would have suffered severe losses within the army.
 Well, imo

Really? Considering that Elric ( the guy you meet in RTO ) says the battle could not have been won, with or without Loghain.

I'm staying out of this after this one comment.

This is a game. It's not real. What's the point of getting worked up about it?