1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

I am a Qunari. I force my opinion upon others, if I truly believe I am right, and I think I am.



Besides, as a historian I always like a good argument, prepares me for what I am going to face further on.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Tirigon: Pardon me, but I never called anyone a idiot. If anyone is flaming in this thread it is YOU.

You wrote: However I cannot respect all the idiots who judge Loghain, that is definitely not what a Grey Warden is. So yes, you did.

I know PERFECTLY well what war is, unlike you. I know of the blood spilled, the massacres that have occurred, the genocides, the slavery, the families destroyed and the suffering it causes overall. I have studied battles in great detail where generals would commit such attrocities that it would make Howe look like a nice little monkey. I have read of burned villages, raped women and children killed just so the troops would have their morale bolstered.

You are assuming I wouldn´t know war first-hand. By chance you are actually right with this, nevertheless it shows what pisses me about you: You are ALL THE TIME assuming things you can´t know. And I have READ enough, too. But again: The fact that there are plenty of people who did WORSE things than Loghain and Howe doesn´t excuse them. Would you say a rapist is not a criminal, because other criminals killed thousands with terror acts?

There is no such thing as HONOR in war, or innocence, or the so called GOOD vs EVIL ****. Both sides are evil, and there is no way you can tell me you are not evil and unethical by killing a man like, regardless of what he did.

That is of course personal opinion. However, the fact that many states have the death sentence, and EVERY state punishes criminals in some way, shows that I´m not the only one disagreeing with you.

I told soldiers the full story behind the choice in the game, they still said they would makes Loghain a Warden, for a person needs to FULLY realize the wrongs of his life, not just die gutted like a pig.

That might well be the case, I can´t know so I can´t say it´s not. but then, what does it prove? Other soldiers tortured prisoners in Abu Ghraib or similar prisons, so I don´t think the ones you talked with are representative for all.

Really? Considering that Elric ( the guy you meet in RTO ) says the battle could not have been won, with or without Loghain.

So? One guy says that, does that mean it´s true? Besides, I already argued that Loghain´s retreat was not the only crime.

[Tirigon]

As for the elves, I don't care, innocents die in war, or do you think that if he had lost the Civil War before the Landsmeet the country would have been so much better?

You got funny morales. You call it a crime to kill ONE person who is guilty of warcrimes, but don´t care if innocents die.

[Costin_Razvan]

I don't assume you don't know about war. I know based on what you posted so far ( just as hardened soldiers can tell a greenie right on the spot ). Loghain isn't a average Criminal, he is a general, in a court martial he would be stripped of his rank at worst, though consider his ONLY crime was to sell elves as slaves to TRY and protect his country, that might actually be pardoned.

The soldier's thing proves how people who have been in war see things, if you truly want to judge Loghain then at least try and think like a person who has been in war does.

So? One guy says that, does that mean it´s true? Besides, I already argued that Loghain´s retreat was not the only crime.

Then what ARE his crimes beside selling elves? What sending an apostate to Arl Eamon who was planning along side Celene to subjugate Fereldan? Allowing Howe to do what he wished, when he couldn't afford in any way to lose him as an ally. Refusing to allow the Bannorn to do as it wished?

Besides the elf thing, any military judge would laugh at you in the face.

You got funny morales. You call it a crime to kill ONE person who is guilty of warcrimes, but don´t care if innocents die.

I do care if innocents die ( I feel my soul is torn appart when I let Vaugn live, knowing what he did, but I do need him ), but I also care about the damned higher picture. The big picture is the nobles where power hungry to take the throne, Loghain needed money or he would have lost, and if he had lost then it would have been far worse.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 06:37 .

[Ulicus]

Yeah, it's a shame you can't ask Anora to step back....



Now, executing Howe in such a fashion and splattering Loghain with his blood? That would have been cool.



Hmm. Someone should make a mod where Howe does his "I deserved more" rant whilst standing, allowing the PC to sweep in with the execution animation.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't assume you don't know about war. I know based on what you posted so far ( just as hardened soldiers can tell a greenie right on the spot ). Loghain isn't a average Criminal, he is a general, in a court martial he would be stripped of his rank at worst, though consider his ONLY crime was to sell elves as slaves to TRY and protect his country, that might actually be pardoned.

The soldier's thing proves how people who have been in war see things, if you truly want to judge Loghain then at least try and think like a person who has been in war does.

So? One guy says that, does that mean it´s true? Besides, I already argued that Loghain´s retreat was not the only crime.

Then what ARE his crimes beside selling elves? What sending an apostate to Arl Eamon who was planning along side Celene to subjugate Fereldan? Allowing Howe to do what he wished, when he couldn't afford in any way to lose him as an ally. Refusing to allow the Bannorn to do as it wished?

Besides the elf thing, any military judge would laugh at you in the face.

You got funny morales. You call it a crime to kill ONE person who is guilty of warcrimes, but don´t care if innocents die.

I do care if innocents die ( I feel my soul is torn appart when I let Vaugn live, knowing what he did, but I do need him ), but I also care about the damned higher picture. The big picture is the nobles where power hungry to take the throne, Loghain needed money or he would have lost, and if he had lost then it would have been far worse.

Well, is the "elf thing" not enough to condemn him to death?

Besides of that, I can´t argue much here; I know too less of military law (though I strongly doubt they wouldn´t mind his retreat; doesn´t that count as deserting?)

About Eamon: Well, he tried to poison him. I don´t have RtO yet, so I´m not sure what you mean with Celene and subjugating Ferelden (care to explain maybe?), but even if Eamon was a traitor, he should have accused him and not poisoned.

On a last note I should add that I don´t argue from military law but from a morale point of view. If military law allows things like poisoning, hiring assassins and allowing an ally to slay an entire family, I think one should rather change military law than to excuse Loghain.

[Ulicus]

RtO Spoilers ----




All Eamon wanted was for Cailan to drop Anora and get a younger bride to produce an heir. There's no indication that Eamon knew, or approved, of the stuff going on with Cailan and Celene I (RtO implies Cailan may have been planning to wed the Orlesian Empress). Though, given he married an Orlesian himself, who knows what he'd have thought?

Modifié par Ulicus, 14 janvier 2010 - 06:55 .

[Tirigon]

Lol. Cailan with an one of THEM. I always thought he got taste.....



But then, I was with Leliana every playthrough. I´m just falling for the accent EVERY F*CKING TIME. Can´t blame a man for that.

[Ulicus]

As a Englishman, I'm afraid I can. The scars of the Hundred Years War still run deep....

[Costin_Razvan]

The Military allows whatever it takes to win. If the RoGs permit it ( Rules of Engagement ) they will do some very nasty things, even today, without fear of court martial.

My whole point in this thread was for people to realize just how war is truly like, just EVERY SINGLE war that has been waged so far had a great deal of crimes and cruelity, not to excuse Loghain for what he did. ( Because from a General's point of view he only did what was needed to try and win, and almost no military court would hold a trial against him for that. )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:02 .

[JTBehnke]

Slayer299 wrote...

Now my understanding of Loghain and Eamon was that Loghain wanted Eamon out of the picture because A) Eamon's wife was from Orlais and B)To get rid of any potential threats to Ferelden. BTW, *where* is everyone finding out all there is to know about RtO? It's not even out yet and I've seen 30 million comments from people with 'supposedly' detailed knowledge of it?

It came out yesterday for the Xbox 360, and naturally people started talking about it here.  That's where I got the information, flawed though it has proven to be.

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The Military allows whatever it takes to win. If the RoGs permit it ( Rules of Engagement ) they will do some very nasty things, even today, without fear of court martial.

My whole point in this thread was for people to realize just how war is truly like, just EVERY SINGLE war that has been waged so far had a great deal of crimes and cruelity, not to excuse Loghain for what he did. ( Because from a General's point of view he only did what was needed to try and win )

I completely agree.


The problem is, however, that you can´t use this as a reason to spare Loghain, I think. If you would do that, you could as well legalize every crime you can imagine. Every single one was committed by a "great leader" already, or at least by their soldiers with their permission.

And this thread was about whether or not Loghain is guilty, not whether war is cruel and should be avoided if possible, or not. I guess you will find very few people who actually think war was anything like in LotR or other fantasy stories.

[Costin_Razvan]

I can use the reason to spare Loghain, because I also am a general. Generals between themselves do not just kill each other for the crimes the other has committed, besides your hands have quite a great deal of blood on them anyway. Crime is crime, no matter against whom you do it and for what reason.

My point is that from a leading standpoint he is not guility of anything but failing to unite Fereldan under his rule. That is all that should matter to you, you are not a person hunting down lowly criminals on the street ( well you are but the main quest thing puts you in the position that you make choices at the highest level, and there you cannot allow yourself to think as a simple person )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:14 .

[Sabriana]

A ruthless PC can:

Wipe out the circle

Kill all the elves, eliminate an entire clan of dalish just like that

Deal in contraband

Become a Reaver

Become a Blood Mage

Foul up Andraste's ashes

Let quite a few demons lose on Ferelden

Kill at least two children

Kill most of the companions

Let Redcliffe be wiped out by undead

Work for the Crows (although I do admit the first mark has to be killed, no matter what kind of PC plays the game. After all, he betrays and murders any Grey Warden sympathizer he can find.)

Make a deal with a Tevinter Blood Mage to use the captured elves so she/he can raise their constituion

That's about all I can come up with on the spot, but those actions are quite criminal in nature, I think.

Modifié par Sabriana, 14 janvier 2010 - 07:35 .

[Woman Warden 118]

Tirigon wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The Military allows whatever it takes to win. If the RoGs permit it ( Rules of Engagement ) they will do some very nasty things, even today, without fear of court martial.

My whole point in this thread was for people to realize just how war is truly like, just EVERY SINGLE war that has been waged so far had a great deal of crimes and cruelity, not to excuse Loghain for what he did. ( Because from a General's point of view he only did what was needed to try and win )

I completely agree.


The problem is, however, that you can´t use this as a reason to spare Loghain, I think. If you would do that, you could as well legalize every crime you can imagine. Every single one was committed by a "great leader" already, or at least by their soldiers with their permission.

And this thread was about whether or not Loghain is guilty, not whether war is cruel and should be avoided if possible, or not. I guess you will find very few people who actually think war was anything like in LotR or other fantasy stories.

I agree with Tirigon, thats hardly a reason to spare Loghain. many innocesents suffered at his hand and dispite his thoughts of 'it was the best thing to do' it was not and he knows it. if he needed money so bad there are better ways than selling elves into slavery, he bribed the authiorites to not interfeer in it so i dont think he needed money that bad. he is a evil man and knows it. maker show him the mercy I cannot

[KnightofPhoenix]

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

if he needed money so bad there are better ways than selling elves into slavery

Like?

[SuperMaoriFulla]

If Cailan was planning to abandon Anora for the Orlesian Empress, then as a King he threatens to undo everything that Maric, Rowan and Loghain tried to achieve - Ferelden's independence and stability.



Abandoning Queen Anora Mac Tir, of Ferelden blood, and the daughter of one of Ferelden's greatest heroes for an Orlesian Empress would alienate a lot of people - commoner and noble alike.



This alienation and resentment could drastically increase due to the brutal occupation in recent history of Ferelden by Orlais, and the justifiable fear that Cailan has handed Ferelden over to Orlais through marriage to the Orlesian Empress.



Loghain, aside from being personally offended at the insult to his daughter, made a promise to King Maric that he would secure (and preserve) Ferelden's independence, or die trying. He was made to promise that he would put the interests of Ferelden first above any group or individual - including the ruling Monarch (Maric at the time).



Ferelden doesn't need a popular king, it needs a strong ruler. The Grey Wardens need strong nations to help fight a Blight. Alistair might be a fair and just ruler, but without Anora by his side and/or the Grey Warden PC advising him; Alistair might end up trying to avoid the hard decisions that a King needs to make - just like Maric whose errors in judgment could have been a lot worse for Ferelden if neither Loghain or Rowan had been there to assist him.



Put Alistair and Anora on the throne and you have a King of Therin blood (admittedly a bastard) and an already capable Queen to rule. It may be unpalatable for some, but the majority would fall into line quickly.



There are so few Grey Wardens in Ferelden, that having Loghain join their ranks makes sense from the point of view that he has the skills and expertise to build up a strong fighting force in a very short time (although the Warden PC has proven he/she can do this by the time of the Landmeet).



Loghain doesn't care what people think of him, so long as he gets the job done. He takes his promises and vows seriously, and once admitted into the ranks of the Grey Wardens he would fully commit himself to the cause and put his own reservations or misgivings aside in the name of fulfilling whatever oath or obligation he has taken. And having a strong group of Ferelden based Grey Wardens (human, evles, dwarven and magi), rather than Orlais controlled/influenced might be best in the long run.

[Woman Warden 118]

Tirigon wrote...

Lol. Cailan with an one of THEM. I always thought he got taste.....

But then, I was with Leliana every playthrough. I´m just falling for the accent EVERY F*CKING TIME. Can´t blame a man for that.

lolz

[Woman Warden 118]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

if he needed money so bad there are better ways than selling elves into slavery

Like?

Taxes, minning expoditions,trading with orzamar,lots of stuff to get money
(thank you for asking, being serious not sarcastic)

[Tirigon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I can use the reason to spare Loghain, because I also am a general. Generals between themselves do not just kill each other for the crimes the other has committed, besides your hands have quite a great deal of blood on them anyway. Crime is crime, no matter against whom you do it and for what reason.

My point is that from a leading standpoint he is not guility of anything but failing to unite Fereldan under his rule. That is all that should matter to you, you are not a person hunting down lowly criminals on the street ( well you are but the main quest thing puts you in the position that you make choices at the highest level, and there you cannot allow yourself to think as a simple person )

As a general, I will kill him because he might try to take over the command. So he is a potential threat. I said it a few pages before already: I prefer vasalls that do what I say to them and don´t think on their own. Lol, I wish you could repair shale´s control rod somehow...

[Tirigon]

Sabriana wrote...

A ruthless PC can:

Wipe out the circle

Kill all the elves, eliminate an entire clan of dalish just like that

Deal in contraband

Become a Reaver

Become a Blood Mage

Foul up Andraste's ashes

Let quite a few demons lose on Ferelden

Kill at least two children

Kill most of the companions

Let Redcliffe be wiped out by undead

Work for the Crows (although I do admit the first mark has to be killed, no matter what kind of PC plays the game. After all, he betrays and murders any Grey Warden sympathizer he can find.)

Make a deal with a Tevinter Blood Mage to use the captured elves so she/he can raise their constituion

That's about all I can come up with on the spot, but those actions are quite criminal in nature, I think.

Except for crows, bloodmage and reaver I did nothing of that, though.
And I don´t consider Blood magic as evil. It´s only evil if you use it for evil purposes.
Sure, you CAN play a PC that is no better than Loghain, but you don´t need to.

[Woman Warden 118]

Tirigon wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I can use the reason to spare Loghain, because I also am a general. Generals between themselves do not just kill each other for the crimes the other has committed, besides your hands have quite a great deal of blood on them anyway. Crime is crime, no matter against whom you do it and for what reason.

My point is that from a leading standpoint he is not guility of anything but failing to unite Fereldan under his rule. That is all that should matter to you, you are not a person hunting down lowly criminals on the street ( well you are but the main quest thing puts you in the position that you make choices at the highest level, and there you cannot allow yourself to think as a simple person )

As a general, I will kill him because he might try to take over the command. So he is a potential threat. I said it a few pages before already: I prefer vasalls that do what I say to them and don´t think on their own. Lol, I wish you could repair shale´s control rod somehow...

exectaly, he cant be trusted
(lolz Shale is teh beast)

[Ulicus]

SuperMaoriFulla wrote...

Loghain, aside from being personally offended at the insult to his daughter, made a promise to King Maric that he would secure (and preserve) Ferelden's independence, or die trying. He was made to promise that he would put the interests of Ferelden first above any group or individual - including the ruling Monarch (Maric at the time).

Though I vaguely recall the oath Loghain swore to Maric regarding Ferelden's independence, Maric himself thought along these lines:

Maric: This isn't about putting the blood of Calenhad on the throne. This is about getting that Orlesian bastard off it. Because if he was a good King for Ferelden, none of this would matter. (My emphasis)

Maric is fighting for Ferelden's independence because it co-incides with making Ferelden a better place for its people. If Orlais were just and ruling Ferelden fairly, he wouldn't be leading rebel armies or anything like it. Cailan isn't intentionally betraying his father's principles, because he likely believes that whatever he's doing is for the good of Ferelden.

Whether he's right or wrong is a different question.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

if he needed money so bad there are better ways than selling elves into slavery

Like?

Taxes, minning expoditions,trading with orzamar,lots of stuff to get money
(thank you for asking, being serious not sarcastic)

Taxes? You think he isn't already doing that?
Mining expeditions? Where and what? You htink he isn't already doing that?
They can't trade with Orzammar because of the succession crisis.

I was serious. Are you serious?

[Sabriana]

@ Tirigon



True. That was my point. It's all about choices.



By the way, blood magic is forbidden and against the law in Ferelden. It matters little what excuse the malificar presents, the templars will run him/her through without batting an eye.