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[KnightofPhoenix]

Excellent post op.
People claiming Loghain to be mentally ill or mad have obviously not tried to spare him and talk to him. A mad person doesn't revert back to sanity, at least not without constant help and years of medical care. Clearly, Loghain is not mad and that should be obvious to anyone who talks with him. A mad person doesn't admit he is wrong, Loghain did. A mad person doesn't feel the need to even justify his actions.

And paranoia is not madness. Every one involved in politics has to be paranoid. A truly crazed form of paranoia is seeing threats where there is no reason to see any. Loghain had reasons to think Orlais might have been plotting invasion, with the help of the Grey Wardens, for a couple of reasons:

A- There is no collective security alliance between Ferelden and Orlais that can supervise and regulate Orlesian intervention. If Orlesian legions come in Ferelden, what's the guarantee that they would leave? No nation invites foreign troops unless they thought a thousand times about it. Espeically not foreign troops who have conquered and occupied the land for a century. Orlais is an imperialist power, with expansionist tendencies. To not suspect them of plotting an invasion is politically imprudent.

B- they have not been any evidence of there being a Blight, except for the Grey Wardens, who don't tell anyone how they know all this (the fact that they are tainted and use something similar to blood magic). And even if there was a Blight, what's to guarantee that Orlesian troops leave Ferelden? That is a political consideration.

C- About the Grey Wardens conspiring with Orlais. That is a legitimate concern. Most Grey Wardens come from Orlais and it is only logically to assume that they have ties with the Orlesian Crown. What's not to say that the Grey Wardens are conspiring with the Impress? The Grey Wardens have history in politics, especially in Ferelden where they attempted to overthrow the king. What's not to say that they are not trying this again, taking advantage of Cailan's idiocy? 

All of these reasons are accentuated by Loghain's legitimate justified hatred towards Orlais, granted. But those reasons are also political considerations, perfectly legitimate on their own. Of course, Loghain turns out to be incorrect about the Grey Wardens, as he himself admitted.  
 
And about slavery. Please. In a time of crisis, laws and morality can be easily overruled. Even the lieutenant from Redcliff says in camp that they don't have enough money to supply the troops. So Loghain sold a few, rather insignificant, elves to gain that money. You may think of it as a crime, sure. But don't exagerrate it. Loghain isn't selling them because of his own personal luxury and pleasure. He is selling them for the war effort. A practise done by all nations on Earth, one way or the other. In times of war, getting money is the most essential thing, regardless of how it is achieved. 

About the civil war. One only needs to see the arrogance of the nobility. Most of them fight against Loghain and Anora because they are "commoners". That's a disgusting position to take. It was the "commoners" who fought and freed Ferelden, not the ****** lazy nobles. In fact, most of the nobility sided with the Orlesian occupation, until the rebellion starting winning ground. The nobility is fighting Loghain for the wrong reasons. Of course my Grey Warden PC used their own idiocy to support his claim to the throne (he is "noble" and not a "commoner"), but he knows they are scum. 
  

[Dragon Age1103]

david46 wrote...

If you go by the knight's code as evidenced by Landry in Denerim, the only "honorable" way to deal with Logain is to prove his treachery on his body. Not being of noble origin, "the rule of the Streets" still demands the death of Logain. Zevran's pre-death is confession all the motivation needed.

If Logain is such a great general, and as some have indicated, could see the battle, why does he need or wait for a signal? He should be able to see when to charge and outflank an opponent. Or was he not expecting a signal with his picked men at the tower? I suggest his plan all along was to remove Cailan by not coming to his aid, fueled by his irrational fear of Orlais. He may have even had men there to insure he didn't survive. It looked like he was surprised by the beacon actually being lit, and went on with plan B.

What I gleaned from the game, Logain is power mad. He believes only a great general like himself can defeat the Darkspawn and will do anything to make it so. He and only he is has that greatness and therefore must lead. His irrational fear of Orlais causes him to eliminate the Grey Wardens since some are from there.

If you do let Logain live are you setting up a repeat of Sophia Dryden? Can a ruler take that chance?

oops missed your last sentence there. lol. What do you mean by a ruler of Sophia Dryden...the extreme, unearthly measures to win part?? That is the only thing that comes to mind since they said the King at the time was a tyrant & the Warden's were standing against him unless I'm wrong...only ran through it once.
     Please enlighten me if you would!!!???

[KariTR]

No one has brought up the fact that Uldred interrupts the meeting to implore the King that there is no need to light the Beacon. He is shouted down by the Mother, but what was Uldred's motivation to declare this? We know he is in cahoots with Loghain, so it seems reasonable that together they had decided the Beacon would not be lit.

For Loghain's treachery to be exposed (to the player), the story-writers had to send our hero to the Tower.

For the poster who commented that events surrounding Ostagar were vague, well ofcourse they were vague then. It is the beginning of the story after all and to give absolutes at that time would spoil the fun. Having said that, when he first stepped from his tent, my flatmate had Loghain pegged as the baddie he turned out to be.

But, if some players wish to believe that it is simply coincidence that along with Cailan's death the most-powerful-next-in-line-to-the-throne Nobles happen to be killed or on their death-beds then carry on believing.

[Asylumer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And about slavery. Please. In a time of crisis, laws and morality can be easily overruled. Even the lieutenant from Redcliff says in camp that they don't have enough money to supply the troops. So Loghain sold a few, rather insignificant, elves to gain that money. You may think of it as a crime, sure. But don't exagerrate it. Loghain isn't selling them because of his own personal luxury and pleasure. He is selling them for the war effort. A practise done by all nations on Earth, one way or the other. In times of war, getting money is the most essential thing, regardless of how it is achieved.

Hey now, I never said that Loghain sold the elves to benefit himself. I specifically pointed out that he did so to save Ferelden.

If one talks to him one learns that he thought the Alienage lost in the first place. It's still a pretty scummy thing to do on principle alone. Did it save many Elven lives? Sure. Still, one can't help but feel for those who've been shipped to Tevinter.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Asylumer wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And about slavery. Please. In a time of crisis, laws and morality can be easily overruled. Even the lieutenant from Redcliff says in camp that they don't have enough money to supply the troops. So Loghain sold a few, rather insignificant, elves to gain that money. You may think of it as a crime, sure. But don't exagerrate it. Loghain isn't selling them because of his own personal luxury and pleasure. He is selling them for the war effort. A practise done by all nations on Earth, one way or the other. In times of war, getting money is the most essential thing, regardless of how it is achieved.

Hey now, I never said that Loghain sold the elves to benefit himself. I specifically pointed out that he did so to save Ferelden.

If one talks to him one learns that he thought the Alienage lost in the first place. It's still a pretty scummy thing to do on principle alone. Did it save many Elven lives? Sure. Still, one can't help but feel for those who've been shipped to Tevinter.

That part wasn't addressing you, but rather the people saying "zomg slavery is evil, loghain must diez".

[KnightofPhoenix]

KariTR wrote...

No one has brought up the fact that Uldred interrupts the meeting to implore the King that there is no need to light the Beacon. He is shouted down by the Mother, but what was Uldred's motivation to declare this? We know he is in cahoots with Loghain, so it seems reasonable that together they had decided the Beacon would not be lit.

Or maybe he wants the mages to prove themselves and finally get some respect?
Loghain didn't insist and if he indeed conspired with Uldred on this issue, he would have included Uldred in his plan in the first place and Cailan would have accepted.

Furthermore, if Loghain was planing to retreat in the first place, why does he even need to wait for the beacon to be lit? He could have simply left long before the beacon was lit.  

[Russalka]

People should remember that their characters in Ferelden haven't read The Stolen Throne, nor have they seen much of which could redeem him during the story. Roleplay, pure roleplay.

[eschilde]

david46 wrote...

If you do let Logain live are you setting up a repeat of Sophia Dryden? Can a ruler take that chance?

Uh. You, as the GW, are already pulling another Sophia Dryden. The major difference is you're successful, and you do it on a much broader range.
Edit: And there's less demon summoning.

outlaworacle wrote...

It wasn't intended as proof of pre-meditation at Ostagar, just examples people like to glaze over or wax philosophical about. Yes, there is alot of moral grey area in this game, that is much of the point. The player's character has nothing to do with this debate. Sure, maybe he/she's an even bigger **** than Loghain. Most of my characters are. But there is also the possiblity of him or her being a ridiculous goody two-shoes, so it doesn't really add much to the debate. Yes, your character can do wrong and evil things... how does that forgive what Loghain does?

It doesn't. But it may change how you decide to deal justice to him.

Modifié par eschilde, 10 janvier 2010 - 06:36 .

[Dragon Age1103]

bye guys!!! I think I've gotten worked up enough for 2010 over a couple of stubborn idiots who can't seem to be proven wrong with facts b/c they hold so much insight into the character formally known as Loghain!!!!!!! Off to play DA:O!!!!!!



Facts! Op has been proven wrong by several posters but only chooses to acknowledge more opinion based posts rather than the ones filled with facts that disprove his retarded theory.



If you enjoy talking to the wall & wasting your time get chatty with the OP & outlaw if not do like me & play some DA:O!!!!!!!!!!

[Asylumer]

KariTR wrote...

No one has brought up the fact that Uldred interrupts the meeting to implore the King that there is no need to light the Beacon. He is shouted down by the Mother, but what was Uldred's motivation to declare this? We know he is in cahoots with Loghain, so it seems reasonable that together they had decided the Beacon would not be lit.

You ignore the much more plausible reason: he could have signaled the army directly and without fail. Why must you immediately suspect foul play involved? Again, we only know that Loghain was in cahoots with Uldred afterwords. To suspect they were involved with each other beforehand is a reasonable suspicion, but still cannot be proven. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

If the Mother had not interceded we'd know exactly whether Loghain planned to kill Cailan or not. If Uldred didn't fire the signal as he said he would, and later on Loghain was alongside Uldred, it'd be a pretty strong case against Loghain.

Modifié par Asylumer, 10 janvier 2010 - 06:38 .

[Knal1991]

Obtusifolius wrote...

KariTR wrote...

No one has brought up the fact that Uldred interrupts the meeting to implore the King that there is no need to light the Beacon. He is shouted down by the Mother, but what was Uldred's motivation to declare this? We know he is in cahoots with Loghain, so it seems reasonable that together they had decided the Beacon would not be lit.

WTF I never knew that was Uldred! Wow, thanks

yes thanks, did not realise it either! (yesterday had the samesuch thing with two movies, which apperently crossed over)

[Xandurpein]

ejoslin wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


Not really a question mark.  A high cunning character (30+) points out that the darkspawn had to know of the plan ahead of time.  

Very interesting. Could you perhaps elaborate on this? When do you get the onversation that allows you to realize this and what exactly is being said?

In the tower when Alistair says something about the darkspawn aren't supposed to be there.  The PC with high cunning has a dialog choice asking why the darkspawn would be there to begin with unless they knew about the plan.

Thank you. Not exactly rock hard evidence, but certainly a strong indication then. Very interesting.

Personally I still think of Loghain as a tragic villian. He was wrong about the Blight for a number of reasons that are explainable by his past, and if he indeed betrayed Cailen (as it seems to me) it was because he himself thought (wrongfully) that Cailen had betrayed Ferelden. Unless others who think he should have sacrificed everything for his King no matter what, I cannot ever fault him for setting Ferelden higher than it's King, only for being wrong about the Blight and Cailen's intentions.

It's sad that so many people can only see him as a scumbag worth nothing but contempt or almost idolize him. Is it really so hard to feel empathy for a villian and still decide to stop him, maybe even kill him? I said it before on a different post and I'll say it again. The sweetest lie there is, is that your enemy deserve to die. Very few people who die in war ever deserve to die.

[Ulicus]

It'd make more sense to wait for Return to Ostagar before making a "complete" case for anything either way.

Robertthebard wrote...

We know the King is at Ostagar.  For all we know, and nothing is
stated to the contrary, Loghain arrived shortly before we do.  There is
not enough here to give a jury reasonable doubt.

Loghain's Guard: He and the king have been arguing for days ... Personally, I think the king should do what Teyrn Loghain tells him. Without the Teyrn, we wouldn't be doing as well here as we are.

The last sentence of the above implies that Loghain has been present for the previous victories at Ostagar, though it's not inconceivable that he travelled to Denerim for a short period.

Modifié par Ulicus, 10 janvier 2010 - 06:46 .

[Tirigon]

If Loghain is NOT insane, then his only excuse is invalid and his treachery is just the worse.



Loghain clearly planned to betray the king to the darkspawn.



What is evidence of this?



1. Loghain knew of deep, forgotten parts of the tower of Ishal - the very parts through which the darkspawn came in. He forbade others to enter before the battle so noone would see this danger.

2. Loghain disagrees with the Wardens lighting the fire - his only reason to do so is his fear they might succeed in spite of the darkspawn. He knew an average soldier could never succeed.

3. Loghain retreats when the fire is lighted. If his treachery was not planned he would have had no reason to change the plan and would have attacked.

4. Loghain holds the Warden responsible for the King´s death. If it was not treachery but strategy, he would have allied with them against their enemy - the Blight. Instead he declares them to Outlaws. However, there is no reason to do so except for a long-planned treachery.

5. Loghain declares himself to the Regent and fights the Bannorn. If he truly wanted to save Ferelden he would have remained General and Anora, the rightful Queen would have ruled until the Landsmeet elects a new King.

[Asylumer]

Ulicus wrote...

It'd make more sense to wait for Return to Ostagar before making a "complete" case for anything either way.

Ok, so it's more accurate to say the complete case using information we might gather from the game and certain Writer posts on the forum

I look at it more like science... revisit and use new evidence to create a better theory. Return to Ostagar hopefully gives us a lot more to think about.

The last sentence of the above implies that Loghain has been present
for the previous victories at Ostagar, though it's not inconceivable
that he travelled to Denerim for a short period.

It's also exteremly unlikely that the General can afford being away from the battle. Possible? Maybe... but he'd have an incredibly small window considering that your mage and Jowan leave at roughly the same time. Pretty impressive to run all the way to Denerim and make it back before the PC.

Modifié par Asylumer, 10 janvier 2010 - 06:50 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ulicus wrote...

It'd make more sense to wait for Return to Ostagar before making a "complete" case for anything either way.

I concur. Perhaps "Cailan's top secret political agenda" also influenced Loghain's decision.

[KariTR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

KariTR wrote...

No one has brought up the fact that Uldred interrupts the meeting to implore the King that there is no need to light the Beacon. He is shouted down by the Mother, but what was Uldred's motivation to declare this? We know he is in cahoots with Loghain, so it seems reasonable that together they had decided the Beacon would not be lit.

Or maybe he wants the mages to prove themselves and finally get some respect?
Loghain didn't insist and if he indeed conspired with Uldred on this issue, he would have included Uldred in his plan in the first place and Cailan would have accepted.

Furthermore, if Loghain was planing to retreat in the first place, why does he even need to wait for the beacon to be lit? He could have simply left long before the beacon was lit.  

Had Loghain just retreated, then his treachery would have been exposed. The fact he was to wait for a signal that never happens (if, like me, you believe that is his plan) allows him to get off scot-free as it were. Note that Uldred doesnt propose the Beacon shouldnt be lit until after the King has ordered the two Grey Wardens to undertake this - in Loghain's words - vital task.

Asylumer wrote...
You ignore the much more plausible reason: he could have signaled the army directly and without fail. Why must you immediately suspect foul play involved? Again, we only know that Loghain was in cahoots with Uldred afterwords. To suspect they were involved with each other beforehand is a reasonable suspicion, but still cannot be proven. Unless you have evidence to the contrary?

Then why not suggest that when Loghain says he has his men there to light the Beacon, why does Uldred wait until Loghain's men are replaced at the King's behest, to state the Beacon doesnt need to be lit at all?
And I didnt suggest that as a player or PC that suspicion was aroused at that time, obviously it was not for the latter or the story-writers would have addressed it. But to deny all evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, because you don't want to believe Loghain is guilty of regicide, is not the best defence frankly.

Modifié par KariTR, 10 janvier 2010 - 06:58 .

[melkathi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And about slavery. Please. In a time of crisis, laws and morality can be easily overruled. Even the lieutenant from Redcliff says in camp that they don't have enough money to supply the troops. So Loghain sold a few, rather insignificant, elves to gain that money. You may think of it as a crime, sure. But don't exagerrate it. Loghain isn't selling them because of his own personal luxury and pleasure. He is selling them for the war effort. A practise done by all nations on Earth, one way or the other. In times of war, getting money is the most essential thing, regardless of how it is achieved. 

About the civil war. One only needs to see the arrogance of the nobility. Most of them fight against Loghain and Anora because they are "commoners". That's a disgusting position to take. It was the "commoners" who fought and freed Ferelden, not the ****** lazy nobles. In fact, most of the nobility sided with the Orlesian occupation, until the rebellion starting winning ground. The nobility is fighting Loghain for the wrong reasons. Of course my Grey Warden PC used their own idiocy to support his claim to the throne (he is "noble" and not a "commoner"), but he knows they are scum. 
  

Interesting how you judge the various people ingame.
Elves are insignificant. Yes, to Loghain of course they are, as they are to Vaughn and Howe. To them elves are second rate citizen, if tehy even deem them more than animals.
At the same time the nobles' position that Loghain and Anora are beneath them because of their heritage is disgusting?
Please make a decission: Has Loghain the right to judge the poor elves of Denerim as insignificant because of race and social status and in turn sell them off to fund his army? Or do the nobles have the right to judge him as inferior because of his heritage? You can't really have both.
If Loghain was so awesome, he could have conscripted the elves into the army to defend Ferelden, which is their home too. A few promises of improving their status and living conditions and he would have had cheap troops to make up for those lost at Ostagar.

The beauty of dark fantasy is that just because one side is evil, doesn't mean the other side is good. Dark fntasy plays with the different shades of grey.
Taking an example outside the discussion at hand:
Harrowmond is not a strong or successful king. But that doesn't make Bhelen less of a murderer. The dwarven assembly was a closed oligarchy one had to be born into. That doesn't mean that Bhelen doesn't become a tyrant by dissolving it. He might do good things for the dwarves, but he also does many bad things and he did bad things to get there.

[KariTR]

Russalka wrote...

People should remember that their characters in Ferelden haven't read The Stolen Throne, nor have they seen much of which could redeem him during the story. Roleplay, pure roleplay.

Actually Russalka, depending on what Origin you choose, it is entirely plausible your character is well acquainted with their countries history. Even though I am only half way through the Stolen Throne myself (and hadnt read any of it for my first 3 playthroughs), I always play my Human Nobles as being well aware of their history lessons, should the opportunity arise as a dialogue option.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And about slavery. Please. In a time of crisis, laws and morality can be easily overruled. Even the lieutenant from Redcliff says in camp that they don't have enough money to supply the troops. So Loghain sold a few, rather insignificant, elves to gain that money. You may think of it as a crime, sure. But don't exagerrate it. Loghain isn't selling them because of his own personal luxury and pleasure. He is selling them for the war effort. A practise done by all nations on Earth, one way or the other. In times of war, getting money is the most essential thing, regardless of how it is achieved. 

  

The fact that most nations commit terrible crimes in times of war (and not only then) does not mean that Loghain is not a traitor for doing the same.


Besides, I disagree with "insignificant elves". I´m sure to the elves sold as slaves themselves were much more "significant" than Loghain and his warriors.

Honestly, Knight, would you like it if your government would decide to sell you as slave to finance their wars?

[eschilde]

david46 wrote...

If you go by the knight's code as evidenced by Landry in Denerim, the only "honorable" way to deal with Logain is to prove his treachery on his body. Not being of noble origin, "the rule of the Streets" still demands the death of Logain. Zevran's pre-death is confession all the motivation needed.

If Logain is such a great general, and as some have indicated, could see the battle, why does he need or wait for a signal? He should be able to see when to charge and outflank an opponent. Or was he not expecting a signal with his picked men at the tower? I suggest his plan all along was to remove Cailan by not coming to his aid, fueled by his irrational fear of Orlais. He may have even had men there to insure he didn't survive. It looked like he was surprised by the beacon actually being lit, and went on with plan B.

What I gleaned from the game, Logain is power mad. He believes only a great general like himself can defeat the Darkspawn and will do anything to make it so. He and only he is has that greatness and therefore must lead. His irrational fear of Orlais causes him to eliminate the Grey Wardens since some are from there.

If you do let Logain live are you setting up a repeat of Sophia Dryden? Can a ruler take that chance?

To answer the question about his abilities as a general: it could be assumed that Loghain expected the signal within a reasonable amount of time. Given that Cailin is down on the field against the horde with what is probably a small force of the military, Loghain could easily assume that he couldn't hold against the horde for such a long period of time. It could also be possible that the numbers of the horde were more than he expected, which he could have found out at the beginning of the battle, and that he hadn't decided what the best course of action was until the lighting of the beacon forced him to choose.

The reason I do not believe that Ostagar was planned solely to get rid of Cailin is because Loghain is touted as such a great general. A truly great general would seek to preserve the maximum of his military that he could (dude apparently needs to read the Art of War for a number of reasons. He would never intend to sacrifice a good portion of his military during a time of war (which it is, blight or no blight) to get rid of an incompetent leader. If he DID decide to do such a thing, I would seriously question his reputation. A truly ruthless person would have hired an assassin or used poison (or both..) during/after the battle to ensure that Cailin died. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
2. Loghain disagrees with the Wardens lighting the fire - his only reason to do so is his fear they might succeed in spite of the darkspawn. He knew an average soldier could never succeed.
3. Loghain retreats when the fire is lighted. If his treachery was not planned he would have had no reason to change the plan and would have attacked.

That doesn't make any sense. If he indeed planned to retreat, he couldn't care less whether the beacon was lit or not, so he couldn't care less if the Wardens were succesful or not. BUt rather, his decision to retreat was most likely due to it taking so long to be lit, that the battle was already over at that point. Which is true, Cailan and Duncan die only minutes after the beacon is lit.

4. Loghain holds the Warden responsible for the King´s death. If it was not treachery but strategy, he would have allied with them against their enemy - the Blight. Instead he declares them to Outlaws. However, there is no reason to do so except for a long-planned treachery.

Because he suspects them to be allied with Orlais, which is a legtimate and possible political consideration. Plus, he didn't see the need for the Grey Wardens, as they don't share their secrets and why they are necessary. And yes, the Grey Wardens are partially responsable for Cailan's dewath as they encouraged his hallow bravado and idiocy.

5. Loghain declares himself to the Regent and fights the Bannorn. If he truly wanted to save Ferelden he would have remained General and Anora, the rightful Queen would have ruled until the Landsmeet elects a new King.

The bannorn declared war partially because both Anora and Loghain are "commoners". Loghain became regent to secure Anora's claim to the throne, since Eammon has a stronger claim. The landsmeet is made of idiotic nobles, why should he wait for them to decide anything?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
The fact that most nations commit terrible crimes in times of war (and not only then) does not mean that Loghain is not a traitor for doing the same.


Besides, I disagree with "insignificant elves". I´m sure to the elves sold as slaves themselves were much more "significant" than Loghain and his warriors.

Honestly, Knight, would you like it if your government would decide to sell you as slave to finance their wars?

Traitor to what? The elves? He did this for Ferelden, he isn't betraying Ferelden.
And sure the elves might think of themselves as significant, but in the larger picture, they are very insignificant.

Of course I wouldn't since I am partial and subjective person. I wouldn't like it. But I am reasoned enough to be impartial and realise that they are doing this to finance the war effort. So I would fight for my freedom, but I would understand why they are doign this. And I would also realise that I am insignificant in the larger scheme of things.
This is not an argument you are providing.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:01 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

bye guys!!! I think I've gotten worked up enough for 2010 over a couple of stubborn idiots who can't seem to be proven wrong with facts b/c they hold so much insight into the character formally known as Loghain!!!!!!! Off to play DA:O!!!!!!

Facts! Op has been proven wrong by several posters but only chooses to acknowledge more opinion based posts rather than the ones filled with facts that disprove his retarded theory.

If you enjoy talking to the wall & wasting your time get chatty with the OP & outlaw if not do like me & play some DA:O!!!!!!!!!!

LOL, I don't know why you were arguing with me, in the first place. My point is that Loghain IS "evil", or bad, or an as5hole, or whatever you want to call it. Specifically because he obviously planned to steal the throne prior to Ostagar. I never said he wasn't a morally complex character, just that he'd obviously turned to the dark side. And not because of "Orlais", even if that's how he justifies it to himself. I don't deny that he can be redeemed, to a degree, in a very specific set of choices at the end of the game. But he still intentionally left his best friend's son to die so he could seize power.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:02 .