1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulicus]

Sabriana wrote...

As stated by D. Gaider, Loghain didn't poison Eamon with the intent to kill him. Just to incapacitate him, which, looking at RtO, might not have been such a bad idea. I'd have to play it see it clearer, but it is stated by the writer of the game that Eamon was never supposed to die.
The demon simply lied to the little boy (A lying demon? I know, shocking, but there you have it)

The demon didn't really... lie. Connor thought his dad was dying and the demon promised that if he agreed to its terms his father wouldn't die. That Connor inferred entailment from that was his own problem. The demon never said it wouldn't make his father so bad that he couldn't survive without it.

[Woman Warden 118]

AaronRiley08 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I can use the reason to spare Loghain, because I also am a general. Generals between themselves do not just kill each other for the crimes the other has committed, besides your hands have quite a great deal of blood on them anyway. Crime is crime, no matter against whom you do it and for what reason.

My point is that from a leading standpoint he is not guility of anything but failing to unite Fereldan under his rule. That is all that should matter to you, you are not a person hunting down lowly criminals on the street ( well you are but the main quest thing puts you in the position that you make choices at the highest level, and there you cannot allow yourself to think as a simple person )

Ya know..... you act like anyone in the military would spare loghain when infact the way i look at it is that loghain is my enemy through out the whole game so at the end i kill him there is no oh hes a general so his choices are justified seriously we handed sadam back to to be hung we didnt care that hey he was the president of iraq he ****ed with us so he ****ing died

by the way im a marine

i agree with this guy

[KnightofPhoenix]

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

while you have a point, is it anymore right than africa selling its POWs in the 1500s to people colonizing the new world. those actions had major reprocsions for many years in america. it even brought on a civil war, not much unlike ferelden already was!

....What? What does this have to do with Loghain selling elves?
And your examples makes little sense to the subject at hand.
If Africa is to mean Ferelden (selling slaves) and America is to be understood as Tevinter (buying slaves), then it's Tevinter which will fall in civil war and not Ferelden, so who gives a damn?

Ah, look at me. Actually trying to make sense of what you are saying. Nevemrind.
Yes, good plan. Loghain should definately issue war bonds. And sell his stocks in the stock market. And invest in mortgages, well not now actually because they have a crisis. But oil is still good business, he should invest with OPEC. Actually no, OPEC is kinda of losing it, he should invest in Canadian oil and water reserves. Yea, Loghain had so many options. 

[AaronRiley08]

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

AaronRiley08 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I can use the reason to spare Loghain, because I also am a general. Generals between themselves do not just kill each other for the crimes the other has committed, besides your hands have quite a great deal of blood on them anyway. Crime is crime, no matter against whom you do it and for what reason.

My point is that from a leading standpoint he is not guility of anything but failing to unite Fereldan under his rule. That is all that should matter to you, you are not a person hunting down lowly criminals on the street ( well you are but the main quest thing puts you in the position that you make choices at the highest level, and there you cannot allow yourself to think as a simple person )

Ya know..... you act like anyone in the military would spare loghain when infact the way i look at it is that loghain is my enemy through out the whole game so at the end i kill him there is no oh hes a general so his choices are justified seriously we handed sadam back to to be hung we didnt care that hey he was the president of iraq he ****ed with us so he ****ing died

by the way im a marine

i agree with this guy

WOOoo enough to pass the motion lol crap i gotta lay off on that stuff

[Woman Warden 118]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

while you have a point, is it anymore right than africa selling its POWs in the 1500s to people colonizing the new world. those actions had major reprocsions for many years in america. it even brought on a civil war, not much unlike ferelden already was!

....What? What does this have to do with Loghain selling elves?
And your examples makes little sense to the subject at hand.
If Africa is to mean Ferelden (selling slaves) and America is to be understood as Tevinter (buying slaves), then it's Tevinter which will fall in civil war and not Ferelden, so who gives a damn?

Ah, look at me. Actually trying to make sense of what you are saying. Nevemrind.
Yes, good plan. Loghain should definately issue war bonds. And sell his stocks in the stock market. And invest in mortgages, well not now actually because they have a crisis. But oil is still good business, he should invest with OPEC. Actually no, OPEC is kinda of losing it, he should invest in Canadian oil and water reserves. Yea, Loghain had so many options. 

ok fine you win!
ill see you in a couple days when i bust down your door and sell you into islamic sex slavery. then we can argue if selling people as property is ok at any time.

[Klystron]

just out of curiosity, because I know almost nothing of the world beyond Ferelden -- who were the slaves being sold to? Orlesians?

edit:  nm, question just got answered...

Modifié par Klystron, 14 janvier 2010 - 09:20 .

[Sabriana]

Ulicus wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

As stated by D. Gaider, Loghain didn't poison Eamon with the intent to kill him. Just to incapacitate him, which, looking at RtO, might not have been such a bad idea. I'd have to play it see it clearer, but it is stated by the writer of the game that Eamon was never supposed to die.
The demon simply lied to the little boy (A lying demon? I know, shocking, but there you have it)

The demon didn't really... lie. Connor thought his dad was dying and the demon promised that if he agreed to its terms his father wouldn't die. That Connor inferred entailment from that was his own problem. The demon never said it wouldn't make his father so bad that he couldn't survive without it.

Thank you Mr. F. Lee Bailey. I stand corrected

[Gimmemocha]

robertthebard wrote... You would put personal gain above the well being of your own family, sparing Vaughn for his crimes, despite the fact that you do not need his vote at the Landsmeet.  PC gets to say something to the effect of "Nobody's missed you" as they turn and leave his worthless ass in the cell when it's a non-City Elf play through, and they are right, nobody has missed him.  Killing him as a non-City Elf is far too merciful.  Much better to leave him in there to starve to death, or worse, if nobody finds him before Denerim is overrun.

As a side note, I usually choose to kill him on the off-chance that after I finish slicing Howe into component atoms, a new Arl of Denerim gets picked and finds Vaughn in the cell.  I'd hate for him to go free and possibly even get his title restored to him.  It seems safer to gut stab him and let him bleed out/die of septicemia.  And I'm a safety girl!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Woman Warden 118 wrote...
ok fine you win!
ill see you in a couple days when i bust down your door and sell you into islamic sex slavery. then we can argue if selling people as property is ok at any time.

There is no such thing as "Islamic sex slavery". There is sex slavery practised in the Middle East (and the rest of the world) for millenia and it predates the religion of Islam, which in fact condones and discourages the action. That's first.
Second, you are not fighting a war, you don't have the urgent responsability to protect a nation. So your motivation is purely for profit.
Thirdly, I am not a female, so I cannot be sold.

Please, try to be more thoughtful before raising controversial, and innacurate, comparisions.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 14 janvier 2010 - 09:24 .

[Ulicus]

Sabriana wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

As stated by D. Gaider, Loghain didn't poison Eamon with the intent to kill him. Just to incapacitate him, which, looking at RtO, might not have been such a bad idea. I'd have to play it see it clearer, but it is stated by the writer of the game that Eamon was never supposed to die.
The demon simply lied to the little boy (A lying demon? I know, shocking, but there you have it)

The demon didn't really... lie. Connor thought his dad was dying and the demon promised that if he agreed to its terms his father wouldn't die. That Connor inferred entailment from that was his own problem. The demon never said it wouldn't make his father so bad that he couldn't survive without it.

Thank you Mr. F. Lee Bailey. I stand corrected

You're most certaily welcome, but I'm afraid I must ask you to sign this non-disclosure agreement regarding my identity.

(In truth, I had to look that guy up. )

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you are not willing to take this seriously and actually think about an alternative, then don't condemn Loghain for selling elves or claim that there were better ways.
Finacing a war is never easy. Especially not for a country like Ferelden.

You are missing one major point here: Ferelden is a world in which magic exists. All you need is 20 Bloodmages and (since there are no darkspawn templars) every army is unnecessary - you could burn, freeze or shock every army to death before they can even start fighting with their swords and axes.

So Loghain should simply have said: "Every Mage willing to fight the Blight is free from the Chantry" and he would get a stronger - though smaller - "army" than Ferelden could ever have.

Another thing: Most nobles were still very rich; he could have used their money. And, of course, there is always the thing with feeding your army by plundering. Not a nice way, of course, but still better than slavery.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is no such thing as "Islamic sex slavery". There is sex slavery practised in the Middle East (and the rest of the world) for millenia and it predates the religion of Islam, which in fact condones and discourages the action. That's first.
Second, you are not fighting a war, you don't have the urgent responsability to protect a nation. So your motivation is purely for profit.
Thirdly, I am not a female, so I cannot be sold.

Please, try to be more thoughtful before raising controversial, and innacurate, comparisions.

1.  Agreed

2. My profit is, in all honesty, much more important to me than a nation or a war and therefore OF COURSE a reason

3.  Zevran: "There is much use for a handsome man, I´m sure"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If you are not willing to take this seriously and actually think about an alternative, then don't condemn Loghain for selling elves or claim that there were better ways.
Finacing a war is never easy. Especially not for a country like Ferelden.

You are missing one major point here: Ferelden is a world in which magic exists. All you need is 20 Bloodmages and (since there are no darkspawn templars) every army is unnecessary - you could burn, freeze or shock every army to death before they can even start fighting with their swords and axes.

So Loghain should simply have said: "Every Mage willing to fight the Blight is free from the Chantry" and he would get a stronger - though smaller - "army" than Ferelden could ever have.

Why do you think he allied himself with Uldred, genius?
But Uldred messed up and it created a disaster. But that was Loghain's plan, to free the mages from the chantry and use them in the war.

[Woman Warden 118]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Woman Warden 118 wrote...
ok fine you win!
ill see you in a couple days when i bust down your door and sell you into islamic sex slavery. then we can argue if selling people as property is ok at any time.

There is no such thing as "Islamic sex slavery". There is sex slavery practised in the Middle East (and the rest of the world) for millenia and it predates the religion of Islam, which in fact condones and discourages the action. That's first.
Second, you are not fighting a war, you don't have the urgent responsability to protect a nation. So your motivation is purely for profit.
Thirdly, I am not a female, so I cannot be sold.

Please, try to be more thoughtful before raising controversial, and innacurate, comparisions.

who says all members of sex trades are straight? you a homophobe or something. and the middle east IS invovled in alot of conflict. im sure that they still need money to fuel secret drug wars. and YES the middle east is involved in drug trade. im mean you can still avoid this and try to disprove it like you have with everything else i have said so i will ask again. Is slavery ever right? If you were in Loghains position would you do the same?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
1.  Agreed

2. My profit is, in all honesty, much more important to me than a nation or a war and therefore OF COURSE a reason

3.  Zevran: "There is much use for a handsome man, I´m sure"

2. A valid position to take. But you can't comapre yourself to Loghain then. As he is not doing this for himself.

3.....maybe.....

[AnniLau]

Regardless of how this debate goes, I still want to cut Loghain's heart out with a spoon.

[Tirigon]

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

lolz Woman Warden 118 approves+43 and ,emberresed, says thank you but im not sure how to respond to that...lolz

+43? Why that? I give you 42, the meaning of life, and all i get is an ugly 43?:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

You made me sad. You need to make me happy again by visiting me in my tent palace. (I sold some slaves, so I have bigger beds now:devil:)

You are allowed to bring your sex-slaves. Maybe I´ll even buy one, if they are worth the price.

[Woman Warden 118]

AnniLau wrote...

Regardless of how this debate goes, I still want to cut Loghain's heart out with a spoon.

 i never thought of using a spoon! i always went with my own hands

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Why do you think he allied himself with Uldred, genius?
But Uldred messed up and it created a disaster. But that was Loghain's plan, to free the mages from the chantry and use them in the war.

You know, that was the only time in the game when I felt a little sympathy for Loghain. But, as usual, if the Bad guy has just ONE good idea, exactly this is the one that fails and everyone is against.....




Edit: @Klystron: You can get RL at www.ALT-F4.com. Modern PCs might even have a direct link. It looks like a circle with a line from the middle to the top and a little longer. Sometimes it´s described with "OFF", for reasons I never understood....

Modifié par Tirigon, 14 janvier 2010 - 09:42 .

[Woman Warden 118]

Tirigon wrote...

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

lolz Woman Warden 118 approves+43 and ,emberresed, says thank you but im not sure how to respond to that...lolz

+43? Why that? I give you 42, the meaning of life, and all i get is an ugly 43?:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

You made me sad. You need to make me happy again by visiting me in my tent palace. (I sold some slaves, so I have bigger beds now:devil:)

You are allowed to bring your sex-slaves. Maybe I´ll even buy one, if they are worth the price.

gah i dont own any slaves!!!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Woman Warden 118 wrote...
 Is slavery ever right? If you were in Loghains position would you do the same?

I will answer only this, because everything else you say is uninformed nonsense.
Slavery is not always wrong. The greatest human empires and civilsiations used slavery. Egypt and Mesopotamia used slavery. The first democracy used slavery. The Romans used slavery. Israel used slavery. The Chinese used slavery. The Islamic Empires used slavery. Europe used slavery..etc etc. Great things have been accomplished thanks to slavery. So I do not rule out slavery as being necessarily a bad thing, in the larger picture.
I am against slavery when it becomes racialised, aka like "the burden of the white man" bs. In other words, believing that one race is so inferior that they were born to be slaves. That kind of mentality I abhor.

If I was in Loghain's position and I needed cash badly, I would have done the exact same hting. Not because I take pleasure from it. Not because I think the elves are inherently inferior. But simply because I need cash and the elves are the easiet to sell.

 

[Carodej]

AnniLau wrote...

Regardless of how this debate goes, I still want to cut Loghain's heart out with a spoon.

'Twould be even more fun if the spoon was rusty and salt encrusted. 

[Thomas9321]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I will answer only this, because everything else you say is uninformed nonsense.
Slavery
is not always wrong. The greatest human empires and civilsiations used
slavery. Egypt and Mesopotamia used slavery. The first democracy used
slavery. The Romans used slavery. Israel used slavery. The Chinese used
slavery. The Islamic Empires used slavery. Europe used slavery..etc
etc. Great things have been accomplished thanks to slavery.
 

I think the slaves that suffered to acomplish these great things would disagree with you there.

Modifié par Thomas9321, 14 janvier 2010 - 09:44 .

[Woman Warden 118]

Tirigon wrote...

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

lolz Woman Warden 118 approves+43 and ,emberresed, says thank you but im not sure how to respond to that...lolz

+43? Why that? I give you 42, the meaning of life, and all i get is an ugly 43?:crying::crying::crying::crying::crying:

You made me sad. You need to make me happy again by visiting me in my tent palace. (I sold some slaves, so I have bigger beds now:devil:)

You are allowed to bring your sex-slaves. Maybe I´ll even buy one, if they are worth the price.

gah i have no slaves!!! how could you think i do!?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Thomas9321 wrote...

I think the slaves that suffered to acomplish these great things would disagree with you there.

That's why I said, in the larger picture. Sure, they wouldn't have liked it. Doesn't change the fact that we look up to prievous civilisations with admiration. And it doesn't change the fact that it contributed to human advancement.
They didn't reap the rewards, but the majority did. That's how it works.