1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I don't assume you don't know about war. I know based on what you posted so far ( just as hardened soldiers can tell a greenie right on the spot ). Loghain isn't a average Criminal, he is a general, in a court martial he would be stripped of his rank at worst, though consider his ONLY crime was to sell elves as slaves to TRY and protect his country, that might actually be pardoned.

The soldier's thing proves how people who have been in war see things, if you truly want to judge Loghain then at least try and think like a person who has been in war does.

And all soldiers think alike? I was in a war myself and I dont' share your sentiments at all.
Only crime? HAH! I see you're one of those who think that the cause justifies any means.....

If that is so then you can't fault anyone for killing Loghain. It was a means to unite the lands. So what if you don' agree with the means? It only the goal that matters.

[Costin_Razvan]

I believe sparring him is better from a political and military standpoint then killing him. The British killed Joan d'Arc and thought they would crush the english spirit with it, they didn't. In fact they made the French People far more angry against the English.

The pharaoh of Egypt killed Pompey believing he would get roman suppport, instead his people hated him greatly for it and Caesar supporter Cleopatra )

I can list further examples if you like. But tell me, why do you think the British didn't just simply execute Napoleon? We know perfectly well what he did in terms of crimes but instead he was exiled. Killing him would have sparked mass rebelions in England.

I apply the same logic to the situation with Loghain, the only reason you don't get a revolt is that the Blight is here, but in the future you are not doing Fereldan any favors in terms of stability.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 janvier 2010 - 08:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
If you are not willing to take this seriously and actually think about an alternative, then don't condemn Loghain for selling elves or claim that there were better ways.
Finacing a war is never easy. Especially not for a country like Ferelden.

KoP, htere are plenty of ways to raise fund. History is ful lof examples.
MY own coutnry is one such example.

When the going gets tough YOU GET CREATIVE. Sell things you don't need(not people),sell art, melt down gold objects, steal from the enemy, scavange what you can, jury-rig, improvise. Contrary to popular belifs, $$ is not the main driving force behind warfare. Willpower is.

[Costin_Razvan]

Really? The best way to get money in a total war game was to sack villages for example.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I believe sparring him is better from a political and military standpoint then killing him. The British killed Joan d'Arc and thought they would crush the english spirit with it, they didn't. In fact they made the French People far more angry against the English.

The pharaoh of Egypt killed Pompey believing he would get roman suppport, instead his people hated him greatly for it and Caesar supporter Cleopatra )

I can list further examples if you like. But tell me, why do you think the British didn't just simply execute Napoleon? We know perfectly well what he did in terms of crimes but instead he was exiled. Killing him would have sparked mass rebelions in England.

I apply the same logic to the situation with Loghain, the only reason you don't get a revolt is that the Blight is here, but in the future you are not doing Fereldan any favors in terms of stability.

And I believe killing him is better from a political and military standpoint then sparing him.
Citing history is not gonna change that. Each historical events has it's own special set of circumstances and people involved. Each is unique. It has no practical application for the FICTIONAL Ferelden situation.

[Costin_Razvan]

You ignore facts, you ignore reason.The only thing you see is personal vengeance against the man, that is not a argument, that is being close minded. I am done arguing with you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
2. A valid position to take. But you can't comapre yourself to Loghain then. As he is not doing this for himself.

To the victim, there is no distinction. Therefore, there is none for me either.

Woman Warden 118 wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Regardless of how this debate goes, I still want to cut Loghain's heart out with a spoon.

../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png i never thought of using a spoon! i always went with my own hands

Fool! Don't you know civilized pople always use proper dinner utensils.

[Sabriana]

@ Lotion Soronnar

I will no longer take any argument you have or make under consideration as a well-thought out, and proper argument.

From now on, I will completely ignore you, you bring nothing to a discussion.

You take others' word out of context to defend you point of view, such as the above between myself and some else

You engage in circular arguments, simply to defend you own point of view

You present your own personal opinion as fact

You resort to reaching way too far and try to obscure others' arguments in your efforts to protect Alistair and vilifiy Loghain - two pixel characters in a video game. I have read other peoples argument for both, and I found many well thought out positions I conceded simply because they were well thought out, well worded, and based in game facts.

You never listen to reason, but resort to turning peoples words around, including your own, just to justify your point

All of the above mean that you have absolutely no clue how to conduct a discussion. Yes, it can get heated, but you are just about to only one who resorts to my above list of discussion no-no's. It is simply a waste of my time to read your arguments, they are usually pointless, empty, and speak of cluelessness. I don't have time to waste
Oktxbai

Modifié par Sabriana, 15 janvier 2010 - 08:52 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Really? The best way to get money in a total war game was to sack villages for example.

Quick and "easy" way, sure. But not neccesary. You can choose to go that way.
But the very fact I won the game wihout sacking vilalges proves it's not necessary to win.

You ignore facts, you ignore reason.The only thing you see is personal
vengeance against the man, that is not a argument, that is being close
minded. I am done arguing with you.

I ignore them no more than you do..in fact, less. You only see adoration towards Loghain.
No sane man would trust Loghain to watch his back.


@Sabriana - I will now cray because you refuse to debate with me anymore. OH the tagedy!
Frankly, I couldn' care less what you consider proper debating or "logical" (your logic seems illogical).
I've been involved in more debates than  I can count and have a excellent track record. So your disaproval means nothing to me.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, unless you're psychic, you dont' know what Duncan would have done. You ASSUME. Doesn't matter how many time someoen mentiones this non-argument. It's not an argument and it only deseves to be ignored.

Without assuming anything, we meet three Grey Wardens in the game, not counting Loghain, and two of them, Riordan and Duncan, both seem to adhere to a very "pragmatic" view on who should be allowed to be a Grey Warden or not. Riordan outright suggests Loghain should be a good Grey Warden, and he has reason to hate him himself. Duncan thinks conscripting thieves, apostates and others is a great idea, not to mention forcing people to join even if they do not want to. They both appear to have similiar views on what being a Grey Warden means which is reasonable as they both have been in the order for a long time.

Alistair is the youngest Grey Wardens, as well as a person with a lot of personal issues caught up in his view on Loghain. Just because alistair feels it's his duty to keep Loghain out of the Grey Wardens, it doesn't follow that his reasons for feeling so is based on logic or Grey Warden teachings, instead of a purely emotional reaction.

Whether you sympathize with Alistair's ideas or not, I think it is perfectly reasonable to infer that both Duncan and Riordan share similiar views on such matters as how to treat Loghain, given that there seems no real conflict between how Riordan speaks about it and how Duncan acts towards the PC.

You are of course free to feel that this kind of reasoning is not fruitful, but there is no reason to be rude about it. Others have tried to keep this thread relativly respectful and I don't appreciate how you try to drag the discussion down by your disrepectful tone.

[AaronRiley08]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You ignore facts, you ignore reason.The only thing you see is personal vengeance against the man, that is not a argument, that is being close minded. I am done arguing with you.

I have not seen one person on this topic who wasnt closed minded, this is not a debate its a full blown childs arguement because everyone is going oh im right and your wrong

the best part about all this is that no matter the evidence very few if anybodys opinion is going to change it doesnt matter

[Lotion Soronarr]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
There are better, faster and more efficient forms of punishments than rape. Rape is never productive and has no purpose or aim except to satisfy the rapist. So no, rape is, under all circumstances, bad. Unfortunately, eliminating it completely from war has proven to be very difficult. 
But imo a rapist should suffer the death penalty immediately.  

But if your coutnry needed the money, and taking women off the streets, tying them and leading state-sponsored ****houses could generate you LOTS of money, you would do that? Because in that case it would be constructive? Even if it was basicly rape.

EDIT:
One more thing - it's Loghian who empties the tresury. Teh civil was starts because of him.
He's basicly diggin the whole country into a bigger hole and doing even more s*** to try and fix it...only to deepen it.
It's a liek a chain reaction that jsut resuklts in more evil.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 janvier 2010 - 09:12 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No sane man would trust Loghain to watch his back.

We both know that in war you cannot always save your fellow soldiers, as happened for Loghain at Ostagar, if you wanna argue against this then perhaps you might want to shoot yourself as there is no proof that the battle at Ostagar could be won, NONE.

I trust Loghain because he is a man of his word, he made a oath to Maric once, and never once do I see in the game that he goes against it,  no matter what it takes ( Aka not sacrificing the army to save Cailan ). He was mistaken in tactics but that doesn't make him unloyal or unthrustworthy.

Alistair on the other hand leaves you, without carring of his oath. As if the wardens don't mean ANYTHING to him, as if the Blight does not mean anything to him. I would never trust my life in the hands of Alistair after what he says at the landsmeet.

That is all I have to say to you, from one soldier to another.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 janvier 2010 - 09:16 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Xandurpein wrote...
Without assuming anything, we meet three Grey Wardens in the game, not counting Loghain, and two of them, Riordan and Duncan, both seem to adhere to a very "pragmatic" view on who should be allowed to be a Grey Warden or not. Riordan outright suggests Loghain should be a good Grey Warden, and he has reason to hate him himself. Duncan thinks conscripting thieves, apostates and others is a great idea, not to mention forcing people to join even if they do not want to. They both appear to have similiar views on what being a Grey Warden means which is reasonable as they both have been in the order for a long time.

Alistair is the youngest Grey Wardens, as well as a person with a lot of personal issues caught up in his view on Loghain. Just because alistair feels it's his duty to keep Loghain out of the Grey Wardens, it doesn't follow that his reasons for feeling so is based on logic or Grey Warden teachings, instead of a purely emotional reaction.

Whether you sympathize with Alistair's ideas or not, I think it is perfectly reasonable to infer that both Duncan and Riordan share similiar views on such matters as how to treat Loghain, given that there seems no real conflict between how Riordan speaks about it and how Duncan acts towards the PC.

You are of course free to feel that this kind of reasoning is not fruitful, but there is no reason to be rude about it. Others have tried to keep this thread relativly respectful and I don't appreciate how you try to drag the discussion down by your disrepectful tone.

The thing with that reasoning is that it's not reap proof.
I cna give moeny to a homeless person one day, and decide not to give it antoher. Just because I make one type of decision a few times, doesn't mean I will do it always. Also, what is pragmatic differes from person to person - as evidenced by this thread.
So while I certanly can see where you're coming from and why you think Duncan would do X, it's not solid proof. He' just as likely to not do X.
I sure as hell don't know what Duncan would do, and I won't pretend I do.

[Xandurpein]

AaronRiley08 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You ignore facts, you ignore reason.The only thing you see is personal vengeance against the man, that is not a argument, that is being close minded. I am done arguing with you.

I have not seen one person on this topic who wasnt closed minded, this is not a debate its a full blown childs arguement because everyone is going oh im right and your wrong

the best part about all this is that no matter the evidence very few if anybodys opinion is going to change it doesnt matter

While it may be true that a lot of people here argue in a rather childish way, I think you are yourself making a rather sweeping and unfounded statement that everyone here is closeminded. I could readily cite posts from people who do not have the same opinion as mine, and yet managed to convey their arguments in a mature and respectful way and acknowledging that their opinion was only that - their opinion. Even if you feel the level of argument here is low, you are only becoming part of the problem if you make your own statements too sweeping.

[Tor_pedo]

So, basically, Loghain is a dcik.

But that brings us to a very important question: How do you judge someone who believes what they are doing is right?

Loghain is a war-veteran, naturally his wievs are a little.... skewed...

The last scene where you have to kill him, however, just breaks my heart especially after recruiting him once and then getting to know him.

/weep for Loghain.

/weep for Alistair

[AaronRiley08]

freakin crap

Modifié par AaronRiley08, 15 janvier 2010 - 09:29 .

[AaronRiley08]

Xandurpein wrote...

AaronRiley08 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You ignore facts, you ignore reason.The only thing you see is personal vengeance against the man, that is not a argument, that is being close minded. I am done arguing with you.

I have not seen one person on this topic who wasnt closed minded, this is not a debate its a full blown childs arguement because everyone is going oh im right and your wrong

the best part about all this is that no matter the evidence very few if anybodys opinion is going to change it doesnt matter

While it may be true that a lot of people here argue in a rather childish way, I think you are yourself making a rather sweeping and unfounded statement that everyone here is closeminded. I could readily cite posts from people who do not have the same opinion as mine, and yet managed to convey their arguments in a mature and respectful way and acknowledging that their opinion was only that - their opinion. Even if you feel the level of argument here is low, you are only becoming part of the problem if you make your own statements too sweeping.

point taken although when i said everyone i didnt exactly mean everyone its just kind of a general term for me

[Lotion Soronarr]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
We both know that in war you cannot always save your fellow soldiers, as happened for Loghain at Ostagar, if you wanna argue against this then perhaps you might want to shoot yourself as there is no proof that the battle at Ostagar could be won, NONE.

We have conflicting claims in the game. NPC who claim it was winnable and 2 who claim it wasn't. SO oyu have no proof it wasn't winnable either.
Untill David gives a clear confirmation on this anyway.
Loghain won against overwhelming odds with far less to work with in the past AND he didn't have an overview of hte battle, so I dont 'belive him.

I trust Loghain because he is a man of his word, he made a oath to Maric once, and never once do I see in the game that he goes against it,  no matter what it takes ( Aka not sacrificing the army to save Cailan ). He was mistaken in tactics but that doesn't make him unloyal or unthrustworthy.

Yeah, well he gave his word to Cailan too. I resent Loghain for his methods. He didn't have the balls to put his foot down, but he did have balls to leave Cailan.
He could have sent a runner to Cailan teh second he saw there's too many darkspawn, saying that his troops are retreating and he should doo..and just go. Cailan would be forced to retreat.
Sure, he would be pissed but butter that than the alternative. Loghain could have just refused his orders. Period.
If he really wanted to make a stand, he could have. He didn't.

Alistair on the other hand leaves you, without carring of his oath. As if the wardens don't mean ANYTHING to him, as if the Blight does not mean anything to him. I would never trust my life in the hands of Alistair after what he says at the landsmeet.

What has Alistair got to do with anything?
And what oath? I don't recall any oaths?
Also, David said Al considered it his duty to keep Loghain out of the GW's.

Personally I'd like more options at the Landsmeet, since I'm not satisfied with the "kill" and "make GW" extreemes.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 15 janvier 2010 - 09:30 .

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...
Without assuming anything, we meet three Grey Wardens in the game, not counting Loghain, and two of them, Riordan and Duncan, both seem to adhere to a very "pragmatic" view on who should be allowed to be a Grey Warden or not. Riordan outright suggests Loghain should be a good Grey Warden, and he has reason to hate him himself. Duncan thinks conscripting thieves, apostates and others is a great idea, not to mention forcing people to join even if they do not want to. They both appear to have similiar views on what being a Grey Warden means which is reasonable as they both have been in the order for a long time.

Alistair is the youngest Grey Wardens, as well as a person with a lot of personal issues caught up in his view on Loghain. Just because alistair feels it's his duty to keep Loghain out of the Grey Wardens, it doesn't follow that his reasons for feeling so is based on logic or Grey Warden teachings, instead of a purely emotional reaction.

Whether you sympathize with Alistair's ideas or not, I think it is perfectly reasonable to infer that both Duncan and Riordan share similiar views on such matters as how to treat Loghain, given that there seems no real conflict between how Riordan speaks about it and how Duncan acts towards the PC.

You are of course free to feel that this kind of reasoning is not fruitful, but there is no reason to be rude about it. Others have tried to keep this thread relativly respectful and I don't appreciate how you try to drag the discussion down by your disrepectful tone.

The thing with that reasoning is that it's not reap proof.
I cna give moeny to a homeless person one day, and decide not to give it antoher. Just because I make one type of decision a few times, doesn't mean I will do it always. Also, what is pragmatic differes from person to person - as evidenced by this thread.
So while I certanly can see where you're coming from and why you think Duncan would do X, it's not solid proof. He' just as likely to not do X.
I sure as hell don't know what Duncan would do, and I won't pretend I do.

But all we can do is assume. We are making a decision on whether Loghain should be allowed to become a Grey Warden or not. We are either assuming he will become a decent Grey Warden or not. Certainly what we assume to be the spirit of what the Grey Wardens truly are, must be a factor in this decision. We know Riordan thinks it's a reasonable decision and we know Alistair is strictly opposed to it. If I, lacking evidence, assume that what I know Duncan did to me and those who died during my joining indicates that his ideas are not far from Riordan's then this is of course something I might consider important to my decision.

It is sloppy to state it as a true fact that Duncan would do this or that, but if it seems to fit his general character, then surely it merits consideration.

[AaronRiley08]

sorry bout the whole double post thingy i got a little impatient

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, David said Al considered it his duty to keep Loghain out of the GW's

And what does Alistair consider to be his duty prove? Didn't Loghain consider it his duty to keep his promise to Maric more important than his oath to Cailan, and didn't you argue that this was still treason?

[Costin_Razvan]

David Gaider wrote...

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

That said, he had been fighting the darkspawn for some time in the south with Cailan there, and had already seen what Cailan was capable of. I think he made preparations prior to that last battle for the possibility that he would have to walk away. He once made a promise to Maric that he would never allow one man to be more important than the Kingdom -- and in his eyes Cailan was recklessly endangering both himself and his kingdom. Whether that error in judgement condemns him right there is up to you.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

David Gaider wrote...

dan107 wrote...
However, I'm still curious -- when exactly did Loghain
make the decision to leave Cailan to die? I was always under the
impression that Ostagar could've been won had Loghain charged when he
was supposed to, but he just used it as an opportunity to get rid of
Cailan. Is that not correct?

The darkspawn forces were
getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that
it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what
might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the
Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that
he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley
could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his
belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted
perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly
the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had
anticipated.

The decision, I think, was made at the moment
Loghain saw the beacon lit. He prepared for the possibility, as he
prepared for everything, but I don't think he decided to go through
with it until right then.

That is all I need to know about Loghain. The Grey Warden's oath is that they will do WHATEVER it takes to end the blight, and Alistair doesn't care about that at all.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 15 janvier 2010 - 09:39 .

[Xandurpein]

AaronRiley08 wrote...

point taken although when i said everyone i didnt exactly mean everyone its just kind of a general term for me

No problem then. I didn't mean to seem upset or anything. It's just that if the level of debate deteriorates, it's extra important to be careful with your arguments and help keep the debate healthy. 

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No sane man would trust Loghain to watch his back.

Thatv is exactly the type of arguments you use over and over. If you cannot see that you are basically arguing that anyone who doesn't agree with you is mentally unstable and that it represents dragging a debate into the gutter, then I feel sorry for you.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 15 janvier 2010 - 09:51 .