1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

ITT: Essay-long analysis of a video game character.

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:00 .

[Asylumer]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

ITT: Essay-long analysis of a video game character.

I'm fully aware... *geek pride*

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That doesn't make any sense. If he indeed planned to retreat, he couldn't care less whether the beacon was lit or not, so he couldn't care less if the Wardens were succesful or not. BUt rather, his decision to retreat was most likely due to it taking so long to be lit, that the battle was already over at that point. Which is true, Cailan and Duncan die only minutes after the beacon is lit.

If he had retreated without reason his treachery would have been clear. He waited for the signal NOT to come, so it would not be his fault he didn´t help, but his plan failed.

Because he suspects them to be allied with Orlais, which is a legtimate and possible political consideration. Plus, he didn't see the need for the Grey Wardens, as they don't share their secrets and why they are necessary. And yes, the Grey Wardens are partially responsable for Cailan's dewath as they encouraged his hallow bravado and idiocy.

So what? Oh, they MIGHT be Orlaisians.... So I betray my King, just because not doing so MIGHT lead to Orlaisians gaining influence here....

Sounds damn mature imo... It just shows what an Idiot Loghain was.

The bannorn declared war partially because both Anora and Loghain are "commoners". Loghain became regent to secure Anora's claim to the throne, since Eammon has a stronger claim. The landsmeet is made of idiotic nobles, why should he wait for them to decide anything?

I agree that the Landsmeet is full of idiots, but Loghain is one of them.

[errant_knight]

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

[Bullets McDeath]

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

I would really appreciate it if the Loghain defense could read this post 1,000 times outloud until it sticks 

But they probably won't. In fact, I give it less than 5 minutes before they have some poorly constructed half-logic counter-argument, probably having to do with Howe acting alone

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:09 .

[DPSSOC]

I have my doubts Loghain plotted to kill Cailin at Ostagar, the Grey Wardens perhaps (he may have truly thought them to be Orlesian agents) but not Cailin. My reasoning for this is simple Loghain tries to keep Cailin off the front lines, it is only Cailin's arrogance and thirst for glory that got him killed.



Now I do suspect he was plotting against the Grey Wardens because if not, why lie? Anyone who knew Cailin, so most of the Landsmeet, would probably buy the idea of him insisting he be on the front lines. After that it's a simple matter of the battle not going as planned and anyone with knowledge of military tactics would be understanding of Loghain's decision to quit the field rather than fight a lost battle. Now rather than explaining that the s**t hit the fan Loghain accuses the Grey Wardens of betraying the king. This makes no sense unless his intent was to eliminate the Grey Wardens and turn people against any possible survivors. Now it's possible that Loghain, who knew Cailin since birth, was deeply traumatized by his failure to save him and blamed the Grey Wardens for Cailin's hero worship and ultimately his death.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Traitor to what? The elves? He did this for Ferelden, he isn't betraying Ferelden.
And sure the elves might think of themselves as significant, but in the larger picture, they are very insignificant.

Of course I wouldn't since I am partial and subjective person. I wouldn't like it. But I am reasoned enough to be impartial and realise that they are doing this to finance the war effort. So I would fight for my freedom, but I would understand why they are doign this. And I would also realise that I am insignificant in the larger scheme of things.
This is not an argument you are providing.  

There is no larger scheme of things. Thats bullsh!t dictators and tyrants explain to excuse their crimes. There is the individual that matters, his life that matters, and the individual´s friends that matter. The rest may go to hell as far as I´m concerned.

Besides, a war is always bad and should not be led at all. So it´s not even a good reason why they are commiting these crimes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
If he had retreated without reason his treachery would have been clear. He waited for the signal NOT to come, so it would not be his fault he didn´t help, but his plan failed.

But he retreated anyway. And he was still blamed. So whether the signal was lit or not is largely irrelevent.
He could have easily claimed that the signal was not lit, and no one would have been the wiser.

So what? Oh, they MIGHT be Orlaisians.... So I betray my King, just because not doing so MIGHT lead to Orlaisians gaining influence here....

Sounds damn mature imo... It just shows what an Idiot Loghain was.

That's politics. If you don't calculate and think of all the possible outcomes, then politics is not for you. His assumption was factually wrong, but logically correct.
He didn't betray Cailan. The idiot got himself killed. 

I agree that the Landsmeet is full of idiots, but Loghain is one of them.

Still better han the others. Of course in terms of intellgence, my Warden PC is the best

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is true, Cailan and Duncan die only minutes after the beacon is lit.

And it only takes few minutes to fly from New York to Tokyo, when we totally disregard the time compression common in the narration

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
There is no larger scheme of things. Thats bullsh!t dictators and tyrants explain to excuse their crimes. There is the individual that matters, his life that matters, and the individual´s friends that matter. The rest may go to hell as far as I´m concerned.

Besides, a war is always bad and should not be led at all. So it´s not even a good reason why they are commiting these crimes.

Sure, tell that to the darkspawn.

[eschilde]

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

Again, that is also questionable proof. Howe intended to murder the entire Cousland family so that there would be no one to refute his planned accusation that they were in league with the Orlesians. He had proof of some kind, though what it was is hard to say. Yes, Cailin finds out if you're a HN, but as Duncan puts it, "Had we not escaped, Howe would have killed us and told you whatever story he wished." This is not evidence that Loghain was working with Howe, only evidence that Howe intended to get rid of the Couslands. Loghain knows, but there are a million and one reasons why he doesn't choose to pursue justice for the Couslands.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is true, Cailan and Duncan die only minutes after the beacon is lit.

And it only takes few minutes to fly from New York to Tokyo, when we totally disregard the time compression common in the narration

Not a perfect analogy. We know it's impossible to travel from New York to Tokyo in a few minutes. While it's perfectly possible for Cailan and Ducan to die when the beacon is lit, and for our PC to be hit shortly after.
Unless it's proven wrong, I think Cailan and Duncan died right after the beacon was lit. Why? Because Duncan just realised, for the first time, that the beacon was lit before he seemingly died.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:15 .

[j_j_m]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...
saw the error of his ways

Loghain never saw the error of his ways. Just listen to what he has to say about Orlais after becoming a Grey warden, still as paranoid as ever, which made him do all those horrible things to begin with. I don't think he is good. What he means may be good, but how he does it is not. He doesn't deserve redemption.

Modifié par j_j_m, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:15 .

[KariTR]

outlaworacle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

I would really appreciate it if the Loghain defense could read this post 1,000 times outloud until it sticks 

But they probably won't. In fact, I give it less than 5 minutes before they have some poorly constructed half-logic counter-argument, probably having to do with Howe acting alone

Well, ofcourse, it's impossible to get every strand of information in one playthrough, or even understand the implications of some of the dialogue at the time we initially hear it.
In my first playthrough, not having read the books, I was pretty neutral as a player toward both the King and Loghain. The latter had to die because he was in cahoots with the traitor who killed my House, that was enough for me as a player.
I'm guessing those who support Loghain, do so after their first outing only. I cannot believe people could believe him innocent if they have played more than once. The amount of denial they would have to use to come to that conclusion beggars belief!

[Asylumer]

Was my original post too long? I could swear that every other rebuttal is something I specifically covered.

[Bullets McDeath]

eschilde wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

Again, that is also questionable proof. Howe intended to murder the entire Cousland family so that there would be no one to refute his planned accusation that they were in league with the Orlesians. He had proof of some kind, though what it was is hard to say. Yes, Cailin finds out if you're a HN, but as Duncan puts it, "Had we not escaped, Howe would have killed us and told you whatever story he wished." This is not evidence that Loghain was working with Howe, only evidence that Howe intended to get rid of the Couslands. Loghain knows, but there are a million and one reasons why he doesn't choose to pursue justice for the Couslands.

Aaaaand I called it. How would Howe expect to get away with it if Calian is charge? As you say, there's a million and one reasons that Loghain would turn a blind eye, but Loghain's not in charge when Howe does it. Cailan is. Which means Howe (especially being the coward that he is) did it because he knew Cailan would never get the chance to bring him to justice.

[DPSSOC]

outlaworacle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

I would really appreciate it if the Loghain defense could read this post 1,000 times outloud until it sticks 

But they probably won't. In fact, I give it less than 5 minutes before they have some poorly constructed half-logic counter-argument, probably having to do with Howe acting alone

Well Howe certainly wasn't expecting there to be any survivors so no one would know the Couslands were dead until they returned from Ostagar.  So Howe kills the Couslands, takes his army to Ostagar claiming Bryce or his wife had fallen ill so he wouldn't be there.  Now let's assume Howe had also made plans to eliminate Fergus durring the battle; so Fergus dies in the battle and when the army heads back Howe goes to check on his friend to find him and his family dead.  With no explanation of who was responsible and Howe being a close friend he stood a good chance of being made Teryn.  The problem arose when the Human Noble escaped with Duncan so Howe now has to think defensively and probably either went into hiding or fortified himself in his estate.  On learning the results of the battle Howe approaches Loghain at or after the Landsmeet where Teagan calls Loghain out and offers his allegiance.  At this point Loghain is somewhat desperate for allies and takes Howe's offer despite knowing what kind of snake he is.

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Sure, tell that to the darkspawn.

Admittedly, they are a different matter than wars between humans. However, it has already been pointed out that Loghain could have allowed the elves to fight. This would have given him lots of soldiers and improved the situation for a suppressed race without promoting slavery.

Besides, the problems with the lack of troops was created by Loghain´s unwillingness to allow Orlaisian troops to join. Without his stupidity, there would have been no need for more money. There were enough troops.

[eschilde]

Asylumer wrote...

Was my original post too long? I could swear that every other rebuttal is something I specifically covered.

This is the internet. If it's longer than 2 lines, it's too long

[Tirigon]

Asylumer wrote...

Was my original post too long? I could swear that every other rebuttal is something I specifically covered.

Yes, it was too long. There were so many words written simply to say something that is obviously not true.
Why should anyone bother to read it?

[KariTR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
If he had retreated without reason his treachery would have been clear. He waited for the signal NOT to come, so it would not be his fault he didn´t help, but his plan failed.

But he retreated anyway. And he was still blamed. So whether the signal was lit or not is largely irrelevent.
He could have easily claimed that the signal was not lit, and no one would have been the wiser.

No one would have been the wiser? What about those who survived the battle, like Wynne. You think in the face of their evidence to the contrary he could have claimed the beacon wasnt lit?
I think youre stretching a bit there Knight.

Modifié par KariTR, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:22 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Sure, tell that to the darkspawn.

Admittedly, they are a different matter than wars between humans. However, it has already been pointed out that Loghain could have allowed the elves to fight. This would have given him lots of soldiers and improved the situation for a suppressed race without promoting slavery.

Besides, the problems with the lack of troops was created by Loghain´s unwillingness to allow Orlaisian troops to join. Without his stupidity, there would have been no need for more money. There were enough troops.

The elves in the alienage are weaklings and cowards. Why should he think they can be useful?

His unwillingness to allow Orlesian troops is not stupid. He would have looked stupid if Orlais came in, saved Ferelden, and then occupied it.

[Asylumer]

Tirigon wrote...

Yes, it was too long. There were so many words written simply to say something that is obviously not true.
Why should anyone bother to read it?

And just when I thought my faith in humanity had hit rock bottom...