1429 réponses à ce sujet

[njlaccetti]

I haven't read the whole thread (all 50 pages of it), but I wanted to know if the stuff revealed in Return to Ostagar has been considered at all here? Cailan's royal guard himself says that there was no way to win at Ostagar, and that Cailan knew it. And the documents found indicate that Eamon was encouraging Cailan to put Anora aside in favor of a new queen -- and that that queen was possibly the Empress of Orlais.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Oh my goodness. Why necro a thread that has been dead for a month?
It's like all the Loghain threads are staring at me and daring me to go in!!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 mars 2010 - 10:44 .

[CalJones]

Yeah, I'm not sure I should touch this one - I'm sure ever pro and con Loghain point has been raised by now, umpteen times over. Now it's just like duelling with ballistas.

[ojustme]

I have a bit of argument at the other forum so i will be truly glad for your help in this question.

Does the smile of Loghain (after the latest discussion with the king) mean that he was manipulating Cailan and got his result? It truly seems a bit vile but i'm not as sure as my opponent so can you judge us? What did this smile mean?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ojustme wrote...

I have a bit of argument at the other forum so i will be truly glad for your help in this question.
Does the smile of Loghain (after the latest discussion with the king) mean that he was manipulating Cailan and got his result? It truly seems a bit vile but i'm not as sure as my opponent so can you judge us? What did this smile mean?

He was smiling because he had just birthed a cloud to be proud of...right in front of the king.

[SurelyForth]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ojustme wrote...

I have a bit of argument at the other forum so i will be truly glad for your help in this question.
Does the smile of Loghain (after the latest discussion with the king) mean that he was manipulating Cailan and got his result? It truly seems a bit vile but i'm not as sure as my opponent so can you judge us? What did this smile mean?

He was smiling because he had just birthed a cloud to be proud of...right in front of the king.

But what did he name it?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

SurelyForth wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ojustme wrote...

I have a bit of argument at the other forum so i will be truly glad for your help in this question.
Does the smile of Loghain (after the latest discussion with the king) mean that he was manipulating Cailan and got his result? It truly seems a bit vile but i'm not as sure as my opponent so can you judge us? What did this smile mean?

He was smiling because he had just birthed a cloud to be proud of...right in front of the king.

But what did he name it?

Schmooples.

[CalJones]

Letting one go inside a suit of armour would be more self-punishment than anything...

I don't think that was a smile, more like a grimace. Perhaps his armour was chafing. Or perhaps he's just sick of Cailan going on and on about how awesome the Wardens are.

I always took the "glorious moment for us all" comment not as "bwahahaha, wait until you die, sucker" *twirls imaginary moustache* but as pure sarcasm. He doesn't have a great opinion of the Wardens (either read The Calling or read the Dragon Age wiki entry on it if you want to know why) and is more than a little tired of Cailan's adoration of them.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

CalJones wrote...

Letting one go inside a suit of armour would be more self-punishment than anything...

Not this suit. He had special vetilation slats added for those long, tedious war room meetings with Cailan, or diplomatic functions involving Orlesian ambassadors.

Loghain smirk could be taken as anything, really. remember, bar retreating at ostagar, he had a ton of other plots already in motion. His original plans were to basically confront Cailan at the Landsmeet.

[Lowenhart]

Personally i have nothing against Loghain, i think all truth the game he did what he thought was best in order to save Ferelden.

1. First we have a King who clearly know nothing about war and just want to play hero, despite every good advice from both Duncan and Loghain he simply ignore set in his own suicidal defense of glory and fantasy.

At point fires was lit even if Loghain had engaged it been to late to attack from the rear and save the king in movie cut we clearly saw only a few men was left standing and fighting, by time Cailin died only about 10man was on their feet alive and they was cut down soon after.

Having Loghain label the young wardens traitors i dont think was unfitting given circumstances, Loghain had no way of knowing that the wardens was delayed in sending signal, since he dident have proper time to secure the underground tunnels in the tower due to Cailin hasty push wishes.

Finally Cailin lead more or less a suicide mission on the impression that the wardens were somekind of demigods who could magically defeat anything, even Duncan saying that we might have to take the archdemon into account and Cailin Brushing it off lightly saying they had the greywarden as if one Veteran and a few novice members could easily defeat a archdemon only shows his ignorance, dont get me wrong in many ways the kings heart was in the right place he just not much of a king to lead against a blight.

Loghain had most likely poisoned the Arl while players was incapacitated after the tower assault recovering it would been only thing that would make sense in timeline, and in which case even if it was bad was in good intentions aswell, since he have no way to unite Ferelden under one banner aslong as the Arl and Bann Teagon would try to demolish a combined war effort.

And Loghain sending a assassin if looking through his shoes for all he could know we could have deserted, from time doing nothing while mending wounds in the wilds by flemeth, also he could not risk a back and forth fight about who was right and wrong when Ferelden needed a army badly.

also if Loghain had joined the fight, then ask yourself would Ferelden still be standing, i mean just to secure the main cities Loghain had to go around collecting soldiers and leaving some towns to its fate, if half the army or whole army of his had gotten demolished in Ostagar what would have held the line while the PCs went around collecting allies.

Slavery decision on his part was bad but also of a desperate man, with towns crumbling around that he had to take forces out of to secure against the main horde, and with a Landsmeet torn and united he had to find finances for the war effort somewhere.

Also remember Maric's no longer around before Loghain and Maric was a duo where Maric had the charisma and ability to lead, Loghain was the tactical mind, now Loghain was left to himself to defend with a half if not fully incompetent King.

All things taken into account despite many bad Decisions Loghain made i hardly think anyone could done a better Job Defending and stalling the Bulk of the Dark spawn horde while, player was gathering allies, maybe you could have found one, but i dont believe Ferelden would have stood long enough had he not defended it till you brought allies, but thats just my opion like the man or not i think his a hero.

Much like in Batman 2 dark knight, sometimes being the bad guy to be the hero, and make the stuff decision nobody else want to.

As for all the fanboys of Aliaster i wanna ask what did he ever do that Loghain did not better, sure somewhere his a sweet submissive but he never took responsibility for anything except putting on a mask and playing for entertainment, while everyone else had to make the hard decision often only to be criticized, he was to much of a grown child for me to like him, id much rather take Loghain any day over him.

[Astranagant]

Whatever Loghain's politics or personal grudges, his actions against the Wardens couldn't possibly be defended as in Ferelden's best interests by anyone who knows the facts about the situation. Even if Loghain could have managed to muster an army to face the Darkspawn, the horde would have overwhelmed them and even if they'd managed to somehow kill the Archdemon, it'd just keep coming back. Without the player's activities in opposition to Loghain, Ferelden would have fallen to the Blight and it would have been on Orlais to stop the Blight.

[Costin_Razvan]

They cannot be defended since we know what it takes to kill an archdemon.



However, since he didn't know that, his actions can be reasoned with.

[Meliorist13]

Sorry for adding to this necro, but this wasn't addressed in the last thread I posted this in, so here it is again:

Logain tells Cailan at the meeting with Duncan and the new wardens, that he has stationed men at the tower and to let them light the beacon. *FLAG*

Cailan says no; to let the Grey Wardens do it, and Loghain acquiesces but is
not happy about it. My thought here, after I saw him abandon the battle, was that he knew the tower was/had a weakness, he deliberately understaffed the defense there, and that it was his plan all along to abandon Cailan on the battlefield.

Was the lighting of the beacon really late? Or did the lighting itself throw a
monkey wrench in the works in that it was never supposed to be lit according
to his plan. He says to hell with it and abandons the field anyway. Loghain
had nothing to lose and in his mind, no one to dispute him, because he
'assumes' that everyone is going to be annihilated.

Modifié par Meliorist13, 15 avril 2010 - 07:44 .

[AliceTheGiraffe]

Loghain is awesome. Nuf'f' said.



(Also, great opening thread.)

[Costin_Razvan]

Sorry, I just had to respond to this. Um, not quite so insignificant if you play a city elf. That's how people can get away with justifying slavery and other evils. They dehumanize the people they are doing it to. The same people that think slavery is a neccesary evil, would believe quite different if it was their own father, wife, or child that was being sold.

Most people are ignorant idiots who don't even know what war is about. Only what they hear from the news, read in the books and watch from various documentaries.



Not even a common soldier fully understands what war is, because while he sees the horrors of it ,he is not in a position to make decisions. Only an officer fully understands what war is, when they make decisions that decide who lives or who dies for hundred of people and have to live with their decisions.



As for justifying slavery.Consider what lack of coin means for your troops. it means bad equipment, it means bad food, if none at all. Being a common soldier is like trying to climb a mountain everyday, in crap conditions of living with the added danger of people trying to kill you.



If I was in command I would not hesitate to help my fellow soldiers with equipment and food, even if that means sacrificing a few lives to slavery. Is it right? No. But nothing about war is right, you can't justify a war even being a good thing, needed perhaps, but not good.

[Remy LeBeau]

dream_operator23 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix:

So Loghain sold a few, rather insignificant, elves to gain that money.
You may think of it as a crime, sure. But don't exagerrate it.

Sorry, I just had to respond to this.  Um, not quite so insignificant if you play a city elf.  That's how people can get away with justifying slavery and other evils.  They dehumanize the people they are doing it to.  The same people that think slavery is a neccesary evil, would believe quite different if it was their own father, wife, or child that was being sold.

Being a African American. I agree with you

[Caldarin V]

Gotta go with Gambit here, slavery is bad- no excuses

[BHRamsay]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If I was in command I would not hesitate to help my fellow soldiers with equipment and food, even if that means sacrificing a few lives to slavery. Is it right? No. But nothing about war is right, you can't justify a war even being a good thing, needed perhaps, but not good.

Niccolo Machiavelli would love this debate ...he would also condem Loghain for relying on morally weak and corruptable men like Rendon Howe for support. 
For abusing the Lords when he should have been trying to appease them during the period following Calian's death. 
And for not doing a better job of distancing himself from the slave trading and the attack on Eamon

[Remy LeBeau]

Caldarin V wrote...

Gotta go with Gambit here, slavery is bad- no excuses

Hey another X-Men fan.

Slavery is not a good thing. If you're playing as Elf. I wished there would have been more of a conflicted at the lands meet. For Loghain to say he did it for the greater good. That is a pill that's hard to swallow.

[Lowenhart]

So you dont believe in the American way or? The greater good boils down to common sense, you cant always make decisions without going into grey areas, sometimes you cant do GOOD in its most pure form, its not always a option sometimes, you have to make a decision much like Mass Effect 1 let one live and another die, now that bioware games are getting more mature in its player base i am guessing we gonna see it alot more. But on a foot note its the decision in real life that some people have to make everyday and dont get the luxery of choosing a easy way out of.



If we look apart the more tragic ones, we know even in everyday life you cant make a good decision that pleases everyone, so it boils down to view points for most parts.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Lowenhart wrote...

Personally i have nothing against Loghain, i think all truth the game he did what he thought was best in order to save Ferelden.

1. First we have a King who clearly know nothing about war and just want to play hero, despite every good advice from both Duncan and Loghain he simply ignore set in his own suicidal defense of glory and fantasy.

At point fires was lit even if Loghain had engaged it been to late to attack from the rear and save the king in movie cut we clearly saw only a few men was left standing and fighting, by time Cailin died only about 10man was on their feet alive and they was cut down soon after.

Having Loghain label the young wardens traitors i dont think was unfitting given circumstances, Loghain had no way of knowing that the wardens was delayed in sending signal, since he dident have proper time to secure the underground tunnels in the tower due to Cailin hasty push wishes.

Finally Cailin lead more or less a suicide mission on the impression that the wardens were somekind of demigods who could magically defeat anything, even Duncan saying that we might have to take the archdemon into account and Cailin Brushing it off lightly saying they had the greywarden as if one Veteran and a few novice members could easily defeat a archdemon only shows his ignorance, dont get me wrong in many ways the kings heart was in the right place he just not much of a king to lead against a blight.

Loghain had most likely poisoned the Arl while players was incapacitated after the tower assault recovering it would been only thing that would make sense in timeline, and in which case even if it was bad was in good intentions aswell, since he have no way to unite Ferelden under one banner aslong as the Arl and Bann Teagon would try to demolish a combined war effort.

And Loghain sending a assassin if looking through his shoes for all he could know we could have deserted, from time doing nothing while mending wounds in the wilds by flemeth, also he could not risk a back and forth fight about who was right and wrong when Ferelden needed a army badly.

also if Loghain had joined the fight, then ask yourself would Ferelden still be standing, i mean just to secure the main cities Loghain had to go around collecting soldiers and leaving some towns to its fate, if half the army or whole army of his had gotten demolished in Ostagar what would have held the line while the PCs went around collecting allies.

Slavery decision on his part was bad but also of a desperate man, with towns crumbling around that he had to take forces out of to secure against the main horde, and with a Landsmeet torn and united he had to find finances for the war effort somewhere.

Also remember Maric's no longer around before Loghain and Maric was a duo where Maric had the charisma and ability to lead, Loghain was the tactical mind, now Loghain was left to himself to defend with a half if not fully incompetent King.

All things taken into account despite many bad Decisions Loghain made i hardly think anyone could done a better Job Defending and stalling the Bulk of the Dark spawn horde while, player was gathering allies, maybe you could have found one, but i dont believe Ferelden would have stood long enough had he not defended it till you brought allies, but thats just my opion like the man or not i think his a hero.

Much like in Batman 2 dark knight, sometimes being the bad guy to be the hero, and make the stuff decision nobody else want to.

As for all the fanboys of Aliaster i wanna ask what did he ever do that Loghain did not better, sure somewhere his a sweet submissive but he never took responsibility for anything except putting on a mask and playing for entertainment, while everyone else had to make the hard decision often only to be criticized, he was to much of a grown child for me to like him, id much rather take Loghain any day over him.

Loghain dug his own hole. He made a series of foolish decisions that dug himself deeper. Thus, yes, I blame him for selling elves into slavery. His need for the extra income was due to his own failings and miscalculations.

Though I'm no great lover of the elves, I still find the slavery issue abhorrent. The very concept offends every part of me. However, I prefer not to argue Loghain's crime from the point of my own morality. I simply with to point out that Loghain's own incompetance as a regent led to disaster after disaster.

The whole crisis was engineered through Loghain's ****** poor planning and execution of his agenda. Had he worked smarter and chosen more wisely, like NOT declaring himself regent, but instead, rushing to quietly advise Anora from behind the scenes, and made more careful planning and elimination of troublemakers, he would have more likely avoided ripping his country apart with civil war and weakening it.

Loghain screwed up too badly to make him worthy of asset status in most of my playthroughs. I do spare him in some, but in general, I find him guilty of incompetance and ****** poor planning.

[Xandurpein]

I blame Maric too. When he made Loghain swear an oath to not put any man above Fereldan, he did it in a context that made it perfectly clear he included the King. Making an obsessive person like Loghain take such an oath was to turn him into a political ticking bomb really. If only Maric had made Loghain swear an oath to stay the hell out of politics instead, things would have been so much smoother.

[MutantSpleen]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Lowenhart wrote...

Personally i have nothing against Loghain, i think all truth the game he did what he thought was best in order to save Ferelden.

1. First we have a King who clearly know nothing about war and just want to play hero, despite every good advice from both Duncan and Loghain he simply ignore set in his own suicidal defense of glory and fantasy.

At point fires was lit even if Loghain had engaged it been to late to attack from the rear and save the king in movie cut we clearly saw only a few men was left standing and fighting, by time Cailin died only about 10man was on their feet alive and they was cut down soon after.

Having Loghain label the young wardens traitors i dont think was unfitting given circumstances, Loghain had no way of knowing that the wardens was delayed in sending signal, since he dident have proper time to secure the underground tunnels in the tower due to Cailin hasty push wishes.

Finally Cailin lead more or less a suicide mission on the impression that the wardens were somekind of demigods who could magically defeat anything, even Duncan saying that we might have to take the archdemon into account and Cailin Brushing it off lightly saying they had the greywarden as if one Veteran and a few novice members could easily defeat a archdemon only shows his ignorance, dont get me wrong in many ways the kings heart was in the right place he just not much of a king to lead against a blight.

Loghain had most likely poisoned the Arl while players was incapacitated after the tower assault recovering it would been only thing that would make sense in timeline, and in which case even if it was bad was in good intentions aswell, since he have no way to unite Ferelden under one banner aslong as the Arl and Bann Teagon would try to demolish a combined war effort.

And Loghain sending a assassin if looking through his shoes for all he could know we could have deserted, from time doing nothing while mending wounds in the wilds by flemeth, also he could not risk a back and forth fight about who was right and wrong when Ferelden needed a army badly.

also if Loghain had joined the fight, then ask yourself would Ferelden still be standing, i mean just to secure the main cities Loghain had to go around collecting soldiers and leaving some towns to its fate, if half the army or whole army of his had gotten demolished in Ostagar what would have held the line while the PCs went around collecting allies.

Slavery decision on his part was bad but also of a desperate man, with towns crumbling around that he had to take forces out of to secure against the main horde, and with a Landsmeet torn and united he had to find finances for the war effort somewhere.

Also remember Maric's no longer around before Loghain and Maric was a duo where Maric had the charisma and ability to lead, Loghain was the tactical mind, now Loghain was left to himself to defend with a half if not fully incompetent King.

All things taken into account despite many bad Decisions Loghain made i hardly think anyone could done a better Job Defending and stalling the Bulk of the Dark spawn horde while, player was gathering allies, maybe you could have found one, but i dont believe Ferelden would have stood long enough had he not defended it till you brought allies, but thats just my opion like the man or not i think his a hero.

Much like in Batman 2 dark knight, sometimes being the bad guy to be the hero, and make the stuff decision nobody else want to.

As for all the fanboys of Aliaster i wanna ask what did he ever do that Loghain did not better, sure somewhere his a sweet submissive but he never took responsibility for anything except putting on a mask and playing for entertainment, while everyone else had to make the hard decision often only to be criticized, he was to much of a grown child for me to like him, id much rather take Loghain any day over him.

Loghain dug his own hole. He made a series of foolish decisions that dug himself deeper. Thus, yes, I blame him for selling elves into slavery. His need for the extra income was due to his own failings and miscalculations.

Though I'm no great lover of the elves, I still find the slavery issue abhorrent. The very concept offends every part of me. However, I prefer not to argue Loghain's crime from the point of my own morality. I simply with to point out that Loghain's own incompetance as a regent led to disaster after disaster.

The whole crisis was engineered through Loghain's ****** poor planning and execution of his agenda. Had he worked smarter and chosen more wisely, like NOT declaring himself regent, but instead, rushing to quietly advise Anora from behind the scenes, and made more careful planning and elimination of troublemakers, he would have more likely avoided ripping his country apart with civil war and weakening it.

Loghain screwed up too badly to make him worthy of asset status in most of my playthroughs. I do spare him in some, but in general, I find him guilty of incompetance and ****** poor planning.

I don't think Eamon and Teagan would have let it rest, even if Loghain hadn't declared himself regent. They would have just said he was controlling his daughter, that she was his puppet and they needed a "real" king.  Seriously I think Eamon just never liked Loghain and would have done anything to get the MacTirs out of the way.  I haven't read the books but it probably has something to do with Rowan being in love with Loghain.