1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

MutantSpleen wrote...

I don't think Eamon and Teagan would have let it rest, even if Loghain hadn't declared himself regent. They would have just said he was controlling his daughter, that she was his puppet and they needed a "real" king.  Seriously I think Eamon just never liked Loghain and would have done anything to get the MacTirs out of the way.  I haven't read the books but it probably has something to do with Rowan being in love with Loghain.

Loghain had already dealt with Eamon, that was one of the few cases of good thinking on his part. Loghain should have quietly examined who posed the biggest threats, such as Teagan, and eliminated them from the playing board as well. With the more vocal and influential opponents removed from the playing board, his chances of success would have been much greater, with a far smaller loss of life and stability. Loghain couldn't have been so dimwitted that he saw only Eamon as a threat.

from a pragmatic point of view, poisoning Eamon was the smartest thing Loghain did. Had he extended that pragmatism further, he wouldn't have created the mess he did.

Incidentally, he felt Eamon was the biggest threat because Eamon had the most influence over Cailan, and was the most staunch conservative/traditionalist who held bloodline above ability in terms of rulership. It didn't have much to do with Rowan.

[Ariella]

MutantSpleen wrote...

I don't think Eamon and Teagan would have let it rest, even if Loghain hadn't declared himself regent. They would have just said he was controlling his daughter, that she was his puppet and they needed a "real" king.  Seriously I think Eamon just never liked Loghain and would have done anything to get the MacTirs out of the way.  I haven't read the books but it probably has something to do with Rowan being in love with Loghain.

Actually, Eamon has trouble believing Loghain would do such a thing when he recovers. It's only when Teagan, who saw how Loghain acted at the Landsmeet descibed Loghain's behavior to his brother that Eamon accepts that something must be done.

Eamon probably would have supported Anora IF the situation had been less obviously a set up.

[Remy LeBeau]

dream_operator23 wrote...

Remy LeBeau wrote...

Caldarin V wrote...

Gotta go with Gambit here, slavery is bad- no excuses

Hey another X-Men fan.

Slavery is not a good thing. If you're playing as Elf. I wished there would have been more of a conflicted at the lands meet. For Loghain to say he did it for the greater good. That is a pill that's hard to swallow.

Yes, the "greater good" arguement.  Again so many evil things get justified with this argument.  And notice that the people making this argument are always the people that are not being enslaved, tortured, exploited, or what have you.  When they are on that side then they call the evil for what it is.  When it is them or their loved ones being enslaved or killed or tortured you can bet they call evil as fast as they can.  Evil isn't evil just when it happens to you or the ones you love.  There are just some things that cannot be justified.

I agree everything you said.

Just think about this people. Think about getting taken away from your wives, your sons, your daughters. Taken away from your twin brother, your parents. Think about getting whip for not getting the job done fast enough. Think about your wives and daughters getting raped. Think about loseing your family name, your histery. Think about being traded like cattle.

Think before you justify slavery. It's one of the most evil ugly things you can do to a person.

I have to ask the people who justify slavery. If you come face to face with the person who did that to your family, what would you say or do to him?

[Xandurpein]

Remy LeBeau wrote...

Just think about this people. Think about getting taken away from your wives, your sons, your daughters. Taken away from your twin brother, your parents. Think about getting whip for not getting the job done fast enough. Think about your wives and daughters getting raped. Think about loseing your family name, your histery. Think about being traded like cattle.

And the tragedy is that it is for the same reasons Loghain decides to overthrow Cailan. It is pretty much what the Orleasian chevaliers did to Fereldan too. I'm not defending Loghain, but it is something to think about. If a player cannot forgive Loghain for what he did to the elves, how can they demand that Loghain should ever forgive the Orlesians.

[Remy LeBeau]

Xandurpein wrote...

Remy LeBeau wrote...

Just think about this people. Think about getting taken away from your wives, your sons, your daughters. Taken away from your twin brother, your parents. Think about getting whip for not getting the job done fast enough. Think about your wives and daughters getting raped. Think about loseing your family name, your histery. Think about being traded like cattle.

And the tragedy is that it is for the same reasons Loghain decides to overthrow Cailan. It is pretty much what the Orleasian chevaliers did to Fereldan too. I'm not defending Loghain, but it is something to think about. If a player cannot forgive Loghain for what he did to the elves, how can they demand that Loghain should ever forgive the Orlesians.

He's no better then Orlesians.

I never said he should forgive them. It's just funny that he did to the Elves what the Orlesians did to Ferelden. In order to beat the Orlesians he had to become the Orlesians. He became what he hated most.

Xandurpein. What would you do if you came face ot face with person who did your family like that?

I know my Elf pc would not sit down and have tea with him and  say "oh well s*** happens" after he tells you he sold your people into slavery for the greater good. I'll have to be out of my mind to him get away with that.

Modifié par Remy LeBeau, 16 avril 2010 - 09:23 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Xandurpein wrote...

Remy LeBeau wrote...

Just think about this people. Think about getting taken away from your wives, your sons, your daughters. Taken away from your twin brother, your parents. Think about getting whip for not getting the job done fast enough. Think about your wives and daughters getting raped. Think about loseing your family name, your histery. Think about being traded like cattle.

And the tragedy is that it is for the same reasons Loghain decides to overthrow Cailan. It is pretty much what the Orleasian chevaliers did to Fereldan too. I'm not defending Loghain, but it is something to think about. If a player cannot forgive Loghain for what he did to the elves, how can they demand that Loghain should ever forgive the Orlesians.

That's the real kicker. Loghain ended up becoming the thing he despised most. He ended up using the same heavy handed, brutal tactics that the Orlesians once used. he became his enemy.

[Willowhugger]

*necromancy!*



I found the slavery bit almost out of character for Loghain actually.

[Zhorgh]

Well it was strange but Cauthrien kind of explained the reason why he attempted that.

Modifié par Othrod, 03 mai 2010 - 06:14 .

[Wintersbreath]

One question and it'll rest my mind!

Asylumer wrote...
1. Was Arl Eamon poisoned before or after the battle?
The Facts:

1. In both the Human Noble and the Mage Origins, we learn from Duncan that the King is AT Ostagar.

so which is true? i didn't bother to check it myself. Mr Gaider says the King and Loghain wasn't at Ostagar. But here and also if I recall correctly, they were there during the Origins time frame. Or was it that the King WANTED to get there as soon as possible instead of ALREADY being there? The bunch seemed to be inside a tent but that's no indication that they were at Ostagar. But what about... they were in the middle of travelling? If this is true then during the 'passage of time' between the battle and the Origins, Loghain somehow went to Denerim and stumbled upon this mage?
thanks!

[tonnactus]

Remy LeBeau wrote...

He's no better then Orlesians.

I never said he should forgive them. It's just funny that he did to the Elves what the Orlesians did to Ferelden. In order to beat the Orlesians he had to become the Orlesians. He became what he hated most.

Maybee that was more Howes work and he just accepted that,like the hiring of the assasins.
Not really excuse.

[Sarah1281]

Wow, necro. But since it's already been done...he doesn't allow anything close to what the chevaliers see as their right.

[Dean_the_Young]

I suppose my personal complete defense of Loghain would be:



-He has history enough to justify his hatred of Orlais

-He has history enough to distrust the Grey Wardens intents and actions

-He isn't even wrong in some of his paranoid fears about Orlais trickery (the Ostagar letters)

-He is ignorant about crucial facts about the Wardens that virtually no one knows, and so has no reason to believe they are necessary

-Some of the disasters linked to him aren't his own doing/intent: the Uldred and the Horror of the Tower, Howe and his many secret crimes.

-He remains an indisputably skilled general, and a means to end the Civil War once and for all

-He isn't malevolent in any of his actions

-He isn't selfish, greedy, or personally ambitious

-He sincerely believes his way is best for the whole of Ferelden, regardless how ugly it is for some of it

[Persephone]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I suppose my personal complete defense of Loghain would be:

-He has history enough to justify his hatred of Orlais
-He has history enough to distrust the Grey Wardens intents and actions
-He isn't even wrong in some of his paranoid fears about Orlais trickery (the Ostagar letters)
-He is ignorant about crucial facts about the Wardens that virtually no one knows, and so has no reason to believe they are necessary
-Some of the disasters linked to him aren't his own doing/intent: the Uldred and the Horror of the Tower, Howe and his many secret crimes.
-He remains an indisputably skilled general, and a means to end the Civil War once and for all
-He isn't malevolent in any of his actions
-He isn't selfish, greedy, or personally ambitious
-He sincerely believes his way is best for the whole of Ferelden, regardless how ugly it is for some of it

Well put!

[CalJones]

I you, Dean! That's it, in a nutshell.

[Elhanan]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I suppose my personal complete defense of Loghain would be:

-He has history enough to justify his hatred of Orlais
-He has history enough to distrust the Grey Wardens intents and actions
-He isn't even wrong in some of his paranoid fears about Orlais trickery (the Ostagar letters)

Based on the little I know; agreed.

-He is ignorant about crucial facts about the Wardens that virtually no one knows, and so has no reason to believe they are necessary

Ignorance is not a defense. And Anora had some knowledge, so maybe he did, too.

-Some of the disasters linked to him aren't his own doing/intent: the Uldred and the Horror of the Tower, Howe and his many secret crimes.

Yet he kept dealing with Howe after receiving a report of the barbarism and treason to the throne.

-He remains an indisputably skilled general, and a means to end the Civil War once and for all

He is a skilled leader. but it is his own inactions that led to the Civil War, at least in part.

-He isn't malevolent in any of his actions

He hires an assassin to kill the remaining Warden's, allows the Blight to thrive by choosing to fight the Bannorn instead, places a reward for the Warden's knowing that they are innocent, poison's eamon which leads to the events in Redcliffe and uses a Blood mage to do this, sells the Elves to pay for his war, etc.

-He isn't selfish, greedy, or personally ambitious
-He sincerely believes his way is best for the whole of Ferelden, regardless how ugly it is for some of it

Agreed. he simply is another sincere believer. He also happens to be guilty of multiple crimes.

[Wulfram]

If Loghain would honestly disown his responsibility for Howe's actions, I'd think less of him.

[Sarah1281]

Ignorance is not a defense. And Anora had some knowledge, so maybe he did, too.

Why isn't ignorance a defence here? Ignorance is only not a defence if you're being willfully ignorant. How did Loghain have the opportunity to know that the Wardens were necessary and yet not take it? And what makes you think that Anora knew that they were necessary? She knows that the Joining is potentially fatal. For all we know, Loghain is equally aware of this. The Joining being potentially doesn't mean Grey Wardens are absolutely essential. Loghain doesn't know about the taint and the fact that the Archdemon will respawn (which is evident in the conversation where Riordan tells him) and if it weren't for that they WOULDN'T be essential.

He is a skilled leader. but it is his own inactions that led to the Civil War, at least in part.

The Civil War seems to me to be best summarized by a quote from Teagan at the start of it "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it!" It really had nothing to do with any crimes Loghain may have committed, the Bannorn was just refusing to follow Denerim's authority, in large part because of the ham-fisted way that Loghain just declared himself leader instead of playing politics. The Bannorn were the ones who decided that they couldn't wait to get all outraged and independent until AFTER the Blight had stopped ravaging the land.

He hires an assassin to kill the remaining Warden's, allows the Blight to thrive by choosing to fight the Bannorn instead, places a reward for the Warden's knowing that they are innocent, poison's eamon which leads to the events in Redcliffe and uses a Blood mage to do this, sells the Elves to pay for his war, etc.

He's like 'Oh, whatever' after Howe already hires an assassin, he doesn't have much of an option but to fight the Bannorn after the civil war breaks out because they won't follow Denerim and you can't have a united Ferelden if they won't, and poisoning Eamon (while not moral) cannot reasonably be expected to unleash a plague of the undead that nearly destroys the entire village. I'm not sure it's fair to blame Loghain for the fact that Jowan is incompetent and Isolde refused to take her son to the Circle which allowed him to get possessed.

Yet he kept dealing with Howe after receiving a report of the barbarism and treason to the throne.

What treason to the throne? Killing the Couslands isn't exactly treason because they're not royalty. And if he hadn't then he would have lost a great deal of power to continue acting as regent and likely would have lost the civil war as well. Desperate times...

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 Why isn't ignorance a defence here? Ignorance is only not a defence if you're being willfully ignorant. How did Loghain have the opportunity to know that the Wardens were necessary and yet not take it? And what makes you think that Anora knew that they were necessary? She knows that the Joining is potentially fatal. For all we know, Loghain is equally aware of this. The Joining being potentially doesn't mean Grey Wardens are absolutely essential. Loghain doesn't know about the taint and the fact that the Archdemon will respawn (which is evident in the conversation where Riordan tells him) and if it weren't for that they WOULDN'T be essential.

Loghain's ignorance of the Warden's role is excusable, but his contrived methods for killing them off is not. He is guilty of attempted murder on the remaining two, and complicit in the muder of those that died at Ostagar, IMO.

The Civil War seems to me to be best summarized by a quote from Teagan at the start of it "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it!" It really had nothing to do with any crimes Loghain may have committed, the Bannorn was just refusing to follow Denerim's authority, in large part because of the ham-fisted way that Loghain just declared himself leader instead of playing politics. The Bannorn were the ones who decided that they couldn't wait to get all outraged and independent until AFTER the Blight had stopped ravaging the land.

And again, while he believes he is right does not mean that he is correct. Teagan suspects that he killed Cailan and the other troops, and is right at not serving the biased, Orisian hating general simply because he demands it.

He's like 'Oh, whatever' after Howe already hires an assassin, he doesn't have much of an option but to fight the Bannorn after the civil war breaks out because they won't follow Denerim and you can't have a united Ferelden if they won't, and poisoning Eamon (while not moral) cannot reasonably be expected to unleash a plague of the undead that nearly destroys the entire village. I'm not sure it's fair to blame Loghain for the fact that Jowan is incompetent and Isolde refused to take her son to the Circle which allowed him to get possessed.

heh! Simply because he is not enthusiastic in ordering the deaths of the warden's does not absolve him of guilt. And while he could not have forseen the undead problems at Redcliffe does not absolve him of starting the snowball rolling that created the problem. While a murder occurs during another lesser crime, the party is still considered guilty of that greater transgression. Or have we learned nothing from 20 yrs of Law & Order....

What treason to the throne? Killing the Couslands isn't exactly treason because they're not royalty. And if he hadn't then he would have lost a great deal of power to continue acting as regent and likely would have lost the civil war as well. Desperate times...

Howe did not appear at Ostagar as commanded, thus disobeying the crown. But I am basing this more on what Cailan tells the HN, and do not have the exact phrasology at hand. But the notion that Loghain would embrace this ferret as his second bewilders me a little. Loghain does appear to have better sense than this. Blood Magic perhaps? I do wonder occasionally if Howe was possessed.

Modifié par Elhanan, 03 novembre 2010 - 02:27 .

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

Loghain's ignorance of the Warden's role is excusable, but his contrived methods for killing them off is not. He is guilty of attempted murder on the remaining two, and complicit in the muder of those that died at Ostagar, IMO.

Falling in battle due to a retreat is not murder. Otherwise the greatest generals in history are guilty of murder. Personally, I don't see why the Wardens stand out at Ostagar. Or why Cailan's part in the massacre can be excused because the fool got himself killed.

Elhanan wrote...
Ignorance is not a defense. And Anora had some knowledge, so maybe he did, too.

So you, if you were responsible for an entire kingdom, would believe a secretive, shadowy order that:

1) Was guilty of treason twice

2) Allied with the darkspawn (You witnessed this)

3) Attempted kill your former king

4) Is led by a man guilty of murder (Nothing against Duncan, but it's true)

5) Recruits condemned criminals, kinslayers, carta thugs, condemned mages etc?

6) Whose only allegiance is to themselves?

All these things would make sensible rulers be suspicious, if not make them banish them.

Neither Loghain nor Anora know why the Grey Wardens are needed to kill Archie.

Elhanan wrote...And again, while he believes he is right does not mean that he is
correct. Teagan suspects that he killed Cailan and the other troops, and
is right at not serving the biased, Orisian hating general simply
because he demands it.

Right in not serving the appointed regent? Hah. Teagan and the Bannorn are responsible for the civil war, they too do not believe it to be a Blight. And it's Orlesian. And hating Orlais isn't why Teagan chooses to focus on opposing his country's greatest general & regent, rather than maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe say "Well, it's a Blight. Let's deal with that first." Even Eamon realizes this and says that he would have to support Loghain if he didn't have Alistair as a very efficient pawn.

Modifié par Persephone, 03 novembre 2010 - 02:55 .

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
So you, if you were responsible for an entire kingdom, would believe a secretive, shadowy order that:

If I were one of the greatest generals in all of Thedas, living in a world full of magic, demons, dragons and ancient evils, yeah, I think I would consider the possibility that legends and rumours might hold some truth, especially after I had to retreat from a battle, hoeplessly outnumbered by an ancient evil force we all believed extinct.

Ignorance and arrogance, over and over again.

Persephone wrote...
1) Was guilty of treason twice
Whatever it takes, remember? I thought you'd approve of such a notion. Funny thing, Loghain the big pragmatist carries a grudge against the Wardens, but at the same time is allied with Howe and Uldred.

2) Allied with the darkspawn (You witnessed this)
Who allied with the Darkspawn? A group of Wardens? All Wardens? And for some odd reason they led themselves being slaughtered by the allies because they trusted your battle plan?

3) Attempted kill your former king
If you are honest, you did consider getting rid of your King briefly. You dismissed the thought, but it has been there.

4) Is led by a man guilty of murder (Nothing against Duncan, but it's true)
You are allied with a man who slaughtered an entire family.

5) Recruits condemned criminals, kinslayers, carta thugs, condemned mages etc?
-snorts- Blood mages, murderers.

6) Whose only allegiance is to themselves?
They dedicate their lives to dealing with the Darkspawn threat. For some odd reason you dismiss this as a fairy tale, but the Chantry does have records, so have the dwarves.

All these things would make sensible rulers be suspicious, if not make them banish them.
Neither Loghain nor Anora know why the Grey Wardens are needed to kill Archie.
No, but there are enough hints that Grey Wardens do indeed deal with the Darkspawn and they are not some myth. To dismiss a potentially useful "enemy" because you are one to hold a grudge, is stupid for a person in his position. He is said to be clever and pragmatic, but his hatred against Orlais and the Wardens overrides this.
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

Modifié par klarabella, 03 novembre 2010 - 03:33 .

[nos_astra]

Persephone wrote...
Right in not serving the appointed regent?

Appointed by whom?

[Wulfram]

Loghain doesn't need to trust the Wardens. He just needs to let them fight the darkspawn.

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
So you, if you were responsible for an entire kingdom, would believe a secretive, shadowy order that:

If I were one of the greatest generals in all of Thedas, living in a world full of magic, demons, dragons and ancient evils, yeah, I think I would consider the possibility that legends and rumours might hold some truth, especially after I had to retreat from a battle, hoeplessly outnumbered by an ancient evil force we all believed extinct.

Ignorance and arrogance, over and over again.

Persephone wrote...
1) Was guilty of treason twice
Whatever it takes, remember? I thought you'd approve of such a notion. Funny thing, Loghain the big pragmatist carries a grudge against the Wardens, but at the same time is allied with Howe and Uldred.

2) Allied with the darkspawn (You witnessed this)
Who allied with the Darkspawn? A group of Wardens? All Wardens? And for some odd reason they led themselves being slaughtered by the allies because they trusted your battle plan?

3) Attempted kill your former king
If you are honest, you did consider getting rid of your King briefly. You dismissed the thought, but it has been there.

4) Is led by a man guilty of murder (Nothing against Duncan, but it's true)
You are allied with a man who slaughtered an entire family.

5) Recruits condemned criminals, kinslayers, carta thugs, condemned mages etc?
-snorts- Blood mages, murderers.

6) Whose only allegiance is to themselves?
They dedicate their lives to dealing with the Darkspawn threat. For some odd reason you dismiss this as a fairy tale, but the Chantry does have records, so have the dwarves.

All these things would make sensible rulers be suspicious, if not make them banish them.
Neither Loghain nor Anora know why the Grey Wardens are needed to kill Archie.
No, but there are enough hints that Grey Wardens do indeed deal with the Darkspawn and they are not some myth. To dismiss a potentially useful "enemy" because you are one to hold a grudge, is stupid for a person in his position. He is said to be clever and pragmatic, but his hatred against Orlais and the Wardens overrides this.
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

Klarabella, is it necessary to get so personal? Seriously!


1) Loghain's motto isn't "Whatever it takes". That's the Wardens' motto. And "Whatever it takes" does not include trusting a shadow organization based on what many in Thedas consider old wives' tales. 

2) A Warden Commander and her Wardens sided with the Architect. Betraying everything they supposedly stand for.

3) Thinking about it is very different from actually attempting it at Warden's Keep. And Genevieve telling Duncan to do it, should the need arise.

4) Not the same thing. One is playing politics, the other was a personal thing. I like Duncan for the most part. Even in "The Calling".

5) DN = Convicted kinslayer. Whether he did it or not.

6) I do not dismiss anything. Their supposed neutrality is an utter farce. Their goal is to kill Darkspawn. They break laws to do so. They are basically above the law in any country. Such groups would make any ruler be wary of them, legends or not.

7) Holding a grudge? I'd not trust them either. I know differently. Even though my Wardens also wonder just why he/she is supposedly necessary to end the Blight. Not even Alistair knows.

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Right in not serving the appointed regent?

Appointed by whom?

The ruling queen. Good enough?:happy:

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

Loghain doesn't need to trust the Wardens. He just needs to let them fight the darkspawn.

Like they did when they sided with them in "The Calling"? Fool me once...etc.