1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Um, no. The other way round works just as well, you know?

No, it doesn't, it's completely pointless.

Not at all. Realms under duress often relied on both. That aside, Anora, both as a woman and a queen Dowager, needed a man she could trust and rely on to support her. Especially with Eamon plotting against her.

[Persephone]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Official leaders of nations can appoint other people the regent of a nation at certain times.
Like if the leader is to young or ill to rule.

Loghain was named regent to confront the darkspawn, but then he took it to try and protect against Orlais. Which is where the train goes off the cliff sadly.

Exactly.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Right in not serving the appointed regent?

Appointed by whom?

The ruling queen. Good enough?:happy:

Anora is not a ruling queen at that point, she's merely Cailan's widow. The Landsmeet decides about the monarch. Loghain illegally claiming regency, so he can do as he pleases, is what upsets the Bannorn and sparks civil war.

Yes and it's just supposition that Anora "appointed" him regent.  It looks to me like he had already declared himself regent on his way to Denerim, without her say-so.  People in Lothering already know that he's claiming the throne.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Right in not serving the appointed regent?

Appointed by whom?

The ruling queen. Good enough?:happy:

Anora is not a ruling queen at that point, she's merely Cailan's widow. The Landsmeet decides about the monarch. Loghain illegally claiming regency, so he can do as he pleases, is what upsets the Bannorn and sparks civil war.

Yes and it's just supposition that Anora "appointed" him regent.  It looks to me like he had already declared himself regent on his way to Denerim, without her say-so.  People in Lothering already know that he's claiming the throne.

Being regent isn't claiming the throne. It may sound nitpicky, but it is not. A man more ruthless, politically savy and ambitious would have used such a situation easily to become king. As king, rather than regent for his daughter, he'd have had more legal power. He only went half way, if you wish. And he actually seems RELIEVED once he is longer regent. Strange, huh, given how so many think he is crazed by ambition and lust for power.

[Giggles_Manically]

Except that Loghain was probably in Denerim by the time you reach Lothering.



He left from Ostagar, right away, and the warden was out of action for a day or so at least, then they had to travel all the way to Lothering, while avoiding darkspawn.

Then again there is no travel times set in stone it seems in Dragon Age.

[ejoslin]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Except that Loghain was probably in Denerim by the time you reach Lothering.

He left from Ostagar, right away, and the warden was out of action for a day or so at least, then they had to travel all the way to Lothering, while avoiding darkspawn.
Then again there is no travel times set in stone it seems in Dragon Age.

He was most definitely in Denerim.  He is in Denerim by the time you leave Flemeth's hut -- the cutscene with him declaring himself regent happens before you even pick up dog (non-HN of course).

Edit: It's hard to say if he was declaring himself king.  It seemed to me he was declaring Anora queen, and he was her regent.  Though there is his messenger who refers to him as King Loghain.

Modifié par ejoslin, 03 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...
Being regent isn't claiming the throne. It may sound nitpicky, but it is not. A man more ruthless, politically savy and ambitious would have used such a situation easily to become king. As king, rather than regent for his daughter, he'd have had more legal power. He only went half way, if you wish. And he actually seems RELIEVED once he is longer regent. Strange, huh, given how so many think he is crazed by ambition and lust for power.

I'm using Ser Bryant's terminology.  He's the one who tells you in Lothering that Loghain is going to claim the throne.  My point is that Anora didn't appoint him, if he's proclaiming himself regent on the way back to Denerim from Ostagar.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Except that Loghain was probably in Denerim by the time you reach Lothering.

He left from Ostagar, right away, and the warden was out of action for a day or so at least, then they had to travel all the way to Lothering, while avoiding darkspawn.
Then again there is no travel times set in stone it seems in Dragon Age.

Not certain what you're arguing for/ against here.

On the way north from Ostagar, Loghain stops in Lothering, leaves his goons in the tavern to look out for Wardens, and summons the local bann to abandon his people to join him.  Ser Bryant thinks he's going to claim the throne.  Or are you assuming there is time for Loghain to get to Denerim, proclaim himself regent, and the news to get back Lothering before the Warden shows up?  I'm gonna call that unlikely.  Seems obvious to me that Loghain left Ostagar with a plan and he didn't care what Anora had to say about it.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I think Loghain declaring himself regent/king/whatever was Plan B. You definitely get the impression that he was already making it know when he went through Lothering. We already know he's sent bounties on your head, Bryant does discuss it, and the bartender mentions it in rumor.



But I don't think that was the original plan before Ostagar. It seems like he was deciding this as his army was retreating.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I think Loghain declaring himself regent/king/whatever was Plan B. You definitely get the impression that he was already making it know when he went through Lothering. We already know he's sent bounties on your head, Bryant does discuss it, and the bartender mentions it in rumor.

But I don't think that was the original plan before Ostagar. It seems like he was deciding this as his army was retreating.

Yeah that seems to be what Gaider is saying, that he had no firm plans before Ostagar about such things, but did think about contingencies.

I should explain, I'm not criticizing Loghain for this.  There is a national emergency.  He doesn't have time to fart around.  Declaring himself regent on the fly gives him the authority to demand troops from people like the Bann of Lothering- who sounds like he was only too happy to get out of Dodge and maybe ride some coattails- so that by the time he gets to Denerim he already has bolstered his troop numbers.  He no doubt figures they can stamp the papers later.  But he really does botch the thrown-together Landsmeet.  At that point he should have put the brakes on and done some schmoozing.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...


Yeah that seems to be what Gaider is saying, that he had no firm plans before Ostagar about such things, but did think about contingencies.

I should explain, I'm not criticizing Loghain for this.  There is a national emergency.  He doesn't have time to fart around.  Declaring himself regent on the fly gives him the authority to demand troops from people like the Bann of Lothering- who sounds like he was only too happy to get out of Dodge and maybe ride some coattails- so that by the time he gets to Denerim he already has bolstered his troop numbers.  He no doubt figures they can stamp the papers later.  But he really does botch the thrown-together Landsmeet.  At that point he should have put the brakes on and done some schmoozing.

He never struck me as someone who goes into dangerous situations without Plan B in the process. He's too tactical, not the fly-by-balls risk taker type.

What his biggest mistake was, however, was declaring himself regent. Regents are generally chosen to rule in the stead of a monarch or heir that is too young, or too incompentant mentally, or disabled, to rule. Anora is none of the above, in fact, she's just the opposite. Had Loghain simply returned, told Anora his spin on things, and then told her she would need him as general for her armies. But declaring himself regent was a direct power grab, which is what spun off the civil war.

Which is why, I think, that Loggy wasn't playing with a full deck when he left Ostagar. I think his head was churning with paranoia and delusions of Orlesian/Warden plots, imaginary invasions, ect. Which is why that someone normally as sensible and level headed as Loghain was before, would have made such an obvious and fatal blunder.

[Addai]

My take is that he was operating on past assumptions. Maric left him in charge and no one said boo. But the situation looks different after Ostagar and he doesn't recognize it in time. Suspicions that he purposely left Cailan to die compounded what might have otherwise been overlooked in a time of war, and it looked like a Mac Tir power grab. IMO Loghain assumed that the banns would realize he had no intention of doing that and that he was acting in the country's best interest rather than out of personal ambition, but they didn't take that for granted and when he gave them no opportunity to voice dissent, that set off the civil war.

Modifié par Addai67, 03 novembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[TJPags]

The whole regent thing simply bothers me.



Anora is not a ruling Queen, until she's acclaimed by a Landsmeet. There's problem one.

Even assuming she IS a ruling Queen, she's an adult, not insane, and has apparently been running the country for 5 years anyway - she doesn't need a regent.



Combine that with the cutscene early on which shows Anora arguing with him, and him putting his foot down, sure makes me think he wasn't so much regent, as ruler.



That set of events really has always bothered me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I personally believe that Loghain seized regency because he wanted to protect Anora, which I base on what he said in the Landsmeet.

I think he knew that he will have to do very questionable things during the war which, in addition to his retreat from Ostagar, might portray him in very bad light. So if he did them with Anora as reigning Queen, she is too is going to be seen in bad light, if not worse since she would have allowed it. But if Loghain was doing this from his own accord and power, Anora is essentially not responsible for his actions.

Indeed, if this was his intent, then he succeeded, for Anora can be named queen in the Landsmeet and no one blames her for what her father did. In essence, he did protect her like he said he wanted to.

This is my personal interpretation. That Loghain seized regency because he knew that he will do questionable things and in order to protect his daughter's reputation and position, especially after the war, would rather have all the blame shift to him, which essentially did work if you pick Anora as queen. This is based on what he says in the Landsmeet and what he says to Anora after Ejoslin's fix (that nothing would please him more than to see his daughter act like Queen).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 novembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[TJPags]

Well, but doesn't that amount to him grabbing power?

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...

Well, but doesn't that amount to him grabbing power?

It does, but not out of greed and / or ambition imo.

[TJPags]

I'll focus more on this part:

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Well, but doesn't that amount to him grabbing power?

It does,

Than on this part:

but not out of greed and / or ambition imo.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't think anyone denied that he grabbed power, but we do see Anora approving of it at the beginning. And many nobles supported him, while others didn't and since a Landsmeet was not gathered to reject or confirm it, it wasn't either legal or illegal, unless we have proof that it's against some Ferelden constitution or convention. And if we do not reveal some of his acts, he wins at the Landsmeet.

What was argued against is the idea that Loghain retreated from Ostagar just to grab power, which is not the case.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 04 novembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think anyone denied that he grabbed power, but we do see Anora approving of it at the beginning. And many nobles supported him, while others didn't and since a Landsmeet was not gathered to reject or confirm it, it wasn't either legal or illegal, unless we have proof that it's against some Ferelden constitution or convention. And if we do not reveal some of his acts, he wins at the Landsmeet.

What was argued against is the idea that Loghain retreated from Ostagar just to grab power, which is not the case.

Well, but we also see Anora's growing disapproval, and IMO kind of early in the game.

We also, of course, have the issue that there COULD have been a Landsmeet, had he simply allowed a vote  . . of course, with Eamon poisoned at that point, and Bryce Cousland dead, there was a clear lack of a strong opposing candidate to Anora - which confuses me, since it seems Anora would have been the logical choice, thus rendering the whole argument about who should be king/queen, and if it was legal, moot.

As for Ostagar, while I may be swaying to the "the battle was unwinnable" thought, I still have to wonder at Loghain's motives - he poisoned Eamon to keep him out of the way, had his contingency plans in case he decided to just leave, etc.  It remains extremely fishy to me - really bad, several day old fish, too.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
We also, of course, have the issue that there COULD have been a Landsmeet, had he simply allowed a vote  . . of course, with Eamon poisoned at that point, and Bryce Cousland dead, there was a clear lack of a strong opposing candidate to Anora - which confuses me, since it seems Anora would have been the logical choice, thus rendering  the whole argument about who should be king/queen, and if it was legal, moot.

Landsmeet have been very heated in the past and Loghain could have thought that it would have been a waste of time. There is no real guarantee that Anora would be elected as Queen.
Not the wisest decision, he could have tried. That's his biggest mistake for me. 

TJPags wrote...
As for Ostagar, while I may be swaying to the "the battle was unwinnable" thought, I still have to wonder at Loghain's motives - he poisoned Eamon to keep him out of the way, had his contingency plans in case he decided to just leave, etc.  It remains extremely fishy to me - really bad, several day old fish, too.

David Gaider said in this thread that poisoning Eamon was to confront Cailan and remove a "negative influence", which hints at the contrary. That Loghain didn't really plan for Cailan to die. He could have had a contingency plan in case he died and I wouldn't blame him, it's pretty clear Cailan is recklessly  risking his life against everyone's advice including Eamon. Not planing for the possibility of Cailan dying would have been stupid.

Anyways, gtg, cheers.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
We also, of course, have the issue that there COULD have been a Landsmeet, had he simply allowed a vote  . . of course, with Eamon poisoned at that point, and Bryce Cousland dead, there was a clear lack of a strong opposing candidate to Anora - which confuses me, since it seems Anora would have been the logical choice, thus rendering  the whole argument about who should be king/queen, and if it was legal, moot.

Landsmeet have been very heated in the past and Loghain could have thought that it would have been a waste of time. There is no real guarantee that Anora would be elected as Queen.
Not the wisest decision, he could have tried. That's his biggest mistake for me. 

TJPags wrote...
As for Ostagar, while I may be swaying to the "the battle was unwinnable" thought, I still have to wonder at Loghain's motives - he poisoned Eamon to keep him out of the way, had his contingency plans in case he decided to just leave, etc.  It remains extremely fishy to me - really bad, several day old fish, too.

David Gaider said in this thread that poisoning Eamon was to confront Cailan and remove a "negative influence", which hints at the contrary. That Loghain didn't really plan for Cailan to die. He could have had a contingency plan in case he died and I wouldn't blame him, it's pretty clear Cailan is recklessly  risking his life against everyone's advice including Eamon. Not planing for the possibility of Cailan dying would have been stupid.

Anyways, gtg, cheers.

1)  The fact that Landsmeets may have been heated in the past is no reason to simply circumvent the rules of how Ferelden chooses it's ruler.  Nor is the fact that Anora may not have been chosen a reason to ignore that.

2)  I'm pretty sure Gaider also said that Loghain wanted his men in the Tower in case he decided the beacon shouldn't be lit - which we've debated the merits of.  If he wanted that, it's a clear indication he considered leaving, batlle winnable or not.  Which, while perhaps not a plan to have Caillan die, IS a plan to retreat, regardless of conditions.

3) While you made this prt of the second point, I think it deserves separate consideration  - Eamon's poisoning doesn't make sense.  Loghain did it to remove Eamon's influence so he could confront Caillan - yet there seems nothing in the game to actually have wanted to confront him about, since the plot line aboue Celene being in Denerim was removed.  Loghain did not know about any (speculative) plans to have Caillan marry Celene before Ostagar, and Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar.  It's a plot hole that doesn't seem to have any explanation, and I can't see it in any good light for Loghain.

[Sarah1281]

3) While you made this prt of the second point, I think it deserves separate consideration - Eamon's poisoning doesn't make sense. Loghain did it to remove Eamon's influence so he could confront Caillan - yet there seems nothing in the game to actually have wanted to confront him about, since the plot line aboue Celene being in Denerim was removed. Loghain did not know about any (speculative) plans to have Caillan marry Celene before Ostagar, and Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar. It's a plot hole that doesn't seem to have any explanation, and I can't see it in any good light for Loghain.

Why couldn't he just want Eamon and the Couslands (and we know that Bryce has been to Orlais only a year previously) out of the way because he's not pleased about the issue of the chevaliers and Cailan pretending the occupation never happened? He doesn't have to know about the marriage.

[Addai]

Kind of interesting, there is a Slim Couldry quest where you go to the Gnawed Noble and confront Loghain soldiers and an NPC called "Loghain's Seneschal" who is supposedly polishing Loghain's crown, which is the drop you get once you dispatch them. According to Slim, Loghain is preparing it for the Landsmeet. It's rather odd, so I'm not sure how lore-relevant I consider it.

Modifié par Addai67, 04 novembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[CalJones]

I always felt that was a ridiculous quest and OOC for how I perceive Loghain. I can't picture him wanting a crown, somehow.

Fact is, you can actually take him on the quest and no one even notices, including his own men. It's a stupid quest.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I always felt that was a ridiculous quest and OOC for how I perceive Loghain. I can't picture him wanting a crown, somehow.
Fact is, you can actually take him on the quest and no one even notices, including his own men. It's a stupid quest.

LOL That's hilarious.