1429 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

CalJones wrote...

I always felt that was a ridiculous quest and OOC for how I perceive Loghain. I can't picture him wanting a crown, somehow.
Fact is, you can actually take him on the quest and no one even notices, including his own men. It's a stupid quest.

heh! Almost want to save him again for this possible humiliation, "But it's MY crown!!!"

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally believe that Loghain seized regency because he wanted to protect Anora, which I base on what he said in the Landsmeet.

I think he knew that he will have to do very questionable things during the war which, in addition to his retreat from Ostagar, might portray him in very bad light. So if he did them with Anora as reigning Queen, she is too is going to be seen in bad light, if not worse since she would have allowed it. But if Loghain was doing this from his own accord and power, Anora is essentially not responsible for his actions.

Indeed, if this was his intent, then he succeeded, for Anora can be named queen in the Landsmeet and no one blames her for what her father did. In essence, he did protect her like he said he wanted to.

This is my personal interpretation. That Loghain seized regency because he knew that he will do questionable things and in order to protect his daughter's reputation and position, especially after the war, would rather have all the blame shift to him, which essentially did work if you pick Anora as queen. This is based on what he says in the Landsmeet and what he says to Anora after Ejoslin's fix (that nothing would please him more than to see his daughter act like Queen).

Wait, wait, ejoslin's Friendly fix for Loghain restores that dialogue at Redcliffe? Or somewhere else? And I agree on all accounts. The way he says "I wanted to protect you from this....." DAMN! 

[Persephone]

Elhanan wrote...

CalJones wrote...

I always felt that was a ridiculous quest and OOC for how I perceive Loghain. I can't picture him wanting a crown, somehow.
Fact is, you can actually take him on the quest and no one even notices, including his own men. It's a stupid quest.

heh! Almost want to save him again for this possible humiliation, "But it's MY crown!!!"

I kind of picture Cailan reacting like that. Loghain? Not so much....

[Elhanan]

Persephone wrote...

I kind of picture Cailan reacting like that. Loghain? Not so much....

Perhaps so; maybe "I have GOT to get some sleep and get these eye bags under control....".

[ejoslin]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I personally believe that Loghain seized regency because he wanted to protect Anora, which I base on what he said in the Landsmeet.

I think he knew that he will have to do very questionable things during the war which, in addition to his retreat from Ostagar, might portray him in very bad light. So if he did them with Anora as reigning Queen, she is too is going to be seen in bad light, if not worse since she would have allowed it. But if Loghain was doing this from his own accord and power, Anora is essentially not responsible for his actions.

Indeed, if this was his intent, then he succeeded, for Anora can be named queen in the Landsmeet and no one blames her for what her father did. In essence, he did protect her like he said he wanted to.

This is my personal interpretation. That Loghain seized regency because he knew that he will do questionable things and in order to protect his daughter's reputation and position, especially after the war, would rather have all the blame shift to him, which essentially did work if you pick Anora as queen. This is based on what he says in the Landsmeet and what he says to Anora after Ejoslin's fix (that nothing would please him more than to see his daughter act like Queen).

Wait, wait, ejoslin's Friendly fix for Loghain restores that dialogue at Redcliffe? Or somewhere else? And I agree on all accounts. The way he says "I wanted to protect you from this....." DAMN! 

Waaaa?  THAT happens?  Really?  Gah, I obviously haven't checked out all the dialog -- all I did was cause his approval to update to friendly rather than stay at warm.

*looking frantically through the toolset now*

[Wulfram]

I think Loghain would not allow Anora power because he knew she might disagree with him, and that's something he wouldn't tolerate.



Which is also perhaps why he ended up relying on Howe - Howe's enough of a snake to avoid standing up to Loghian while still getting what he wants.

[Dean_the_Young]

Elhanan wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I suppose my personal complete defense of Loghain would be:

-He has history enough to justify his hatred of Orlais
-He has history enough to distrust the Grey Wardens intents and actions
-He isn't even wrong in some of his paranoid fears about Orlais trickery (the Ostagar letters)

Based on the little I know; agreed.

-He is ignorant about crucial facts about the Wardens that virtually no one knows, and so has no reason to believe they are necessary

Ignorance is not a defense. And Anora had some knowledge, so maybe he did, too.

-Some of the disasters linked to him aren't his own doing/intent: the Uldred and the Horror of the Tower, Howe and his many secret crimes.

Yet he kept dealing with Howe after receiving a report of the barbarism and treason to the throne.

-He remains an indisputably skilled general, and a means to end the Civil War once and for all

He is a skilled leader. but it is his own inactions that led to the Civil War, at least in part.

-He isn't malevolent in any of his actions

He hires an assassin to kill the remaining Warden's, allows the Blight to thrive by choosing to fight the Bannorn instead, places a reward for the Warden's knowing that they are innocent, poison's eamon which leads to the events in Redcliffe and uses a Blood mage to do this, sells the Elves to pay for his war, etc.

-He isn't selfish, greedy, or personally ambitious
-He sincerely believes his way is best for the whole of Ferelden, regardless how ugly it is for some of it

Agreed. he simply is another sincere believer. He also happens to be guilty of multiple crimes.

Oh, I agree. Loghain may have been ignorant, but that doesn't completely excuse him or his actions. His mess was in large part of his own actions, and his path not the only one he could have taken.

Even necessary evils need to be held accountable. They may need to happen, but we, as individuals and groups, should never bend on the idea that what's necessary should not entail consequences. Otherwise we hide behind the excuse of 'it was necessary', whether it truly was or not, and even by whos standards.

For his actions, however understandable, Loghain deserves a trial and a verdict. Quite likely a hanging as well. Some of what he did he may be found innocent. Some, mitigated by the circumstances. Others, completely guilty.

But his actions in the past, and the past consequences, are just that: past. They aren't going to get any more or less in the post if you don't kill him now. But what he can do now, in the present, before a future accounting... that can be worth sparing him for the moment.

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...

I always felt that was a ridiculous quest and OOC for how I perceive Loghain. I can't picture him wanting a crown, somehow.
Fact is, you can actually take him on the quest and no one even notices, including his own men. It's a stupid quest.

Yeah and if Loghain really wanted that crown for the Landsmeet, why does he never wear it if you don't take it? 

[CalJones]

Maybe it's a crown for his tooth? I have a few of those...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Having played through as the human noble, and as all other factions and having seen all possible endings programmed into the game, and after having read the OP in this thread, it was not Loghain who was the traitor, but Cailin who was an idiot. If you listened to Duncan's dialog with Cailan in the beginning when the PC first arrives at Ostagar, you would hear disagreement in his voice. Duncan knew Cailan was making a grave mistake. Cailan should have withdrawn the whole army back to Denerim.

Before the battle, Cailan spurned any attempt for Loghain to provide tactical advice, considering himself more capable. During the battle his tactics sucked. Hello, rotational fire with the archers? They probably should have been on the bridge. And how about pulling back to the gate to take the Darkspawn at the choke point?

Personally from my PC's viewpoint I just wanted to level up enough to choke the living sh** out of Howe. My PC had absolutely no love or use for the Chantry, made quick friends with Morrigan, Sten, Shale, and kept Leiliana around to open chests while putting up with her incessant ramblings about the "Maker". And after becoming close friends with an "apostate" how could she possibly even contemplate doing anything for the Templars.

After a few playthroughs one does figure out things are not quite as black or white as they seemed. The case against Loghain isn't as solid as originally thought. Loghain as the regent isn't fully aware of all things going on, but gets fed information from that snake, Howe, and other "advisers".

One sees that the PC was totally manipulated throughout the game. The PC knew Duncan for how long? a few days? Duncan used to visit the castle every now and then. Duncan was a friend of the family, yet in exchange for helping the PC escape demands she be given to the Grey Wardens whether she wanted to or not? Some friend, considering he was going to make his own escape anyway.

So the thing that really got my character PO'd at Loghain was the fact that Zevran mentioned he was hired by Loghain, and the fact that Loghain had declared the Grey Wardens criminals. It is a power struggle, nothing more, and power struggles get ugly quickly. Eamon wanted to plant a very unqualified Alistair on the throne. And we were manipulated into staging a coup d'etat. The Dalish wiped out by the werewolves, Wynne left the picture at the urn. Brother Genetivi never returned. Funny how none of these actions ever hurt the relationship with Alistair. Of course Morrigan and Shale approved of her actions.

But the rightful Teryna of Highever also wanted the power of her family back. So she feigns backing Eamon. Supports the Queen over Alistair. And spares Loghain since during a blight is not the time to do a purge of one's generals. But Anora makes her the general, and Loghain takes the final shot, but lives.

What I find pathetic was Alistair. He never wanted to be King. In one part of the conversation he's grateful for not having to be King, but still picks up his marbles and goes off to hide in a bottle. Not a very strong character. Definitely not king material.

The story of Loghain is a classic tragedy. It is that of a man who starts with good intentions, but through his own character faults, meets his downfall. That part of the story is Macbeth and King Lear.

But in this case the "Hero of Ferelden" is more of the anti-hero.

I still want to know what happened to the followers of "Andraste".

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 04 novembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Sarah1281]

I suspect that sooner or later, Andraste ate them.

[Wulfram]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Before the battle, Cailan spurned any attempt for Loghain to provide tactical advice, considering himself more capable. During the battle his tactics sucked. Hello, rotational fire with the archers? They probably should have been on the bridge. And how about pulling back to the gate to take the Darkspawn at the choke point?

The decision to fight then was the King's, but the battle plan was Loghain's actually.

[Sarah1281]

Loghain had to work with the King's conditions which were: no reinforcements (if he wanted to wait for the Orlesians, he would have bloody waited) and fighting right there at Ostagar. Even if his plan probably wouldn't have worked, chances are it was leaps and bounds ahead of whatever Cailan would have come up with.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Loghain had to work with the King's conditions which were: no reinforcements (if he wanted to wait for the Orlesians, he would have bloody waited) and fighting right there at Ostagar. Even if his plan probably wouldn't have worked, chances are it was leaps and bounds ahead of whatever Cailan would have come up with.

I agree with all of that.

Though I don't know if waiting for Arl Eamon's men was necessarily a very good idea - the Darkspawn Horde seems to have been growing constantly too, so it seems to me that all it would have done was make the consequences of defeat that much more disasterous. 
Waiting for the Orlesians would have been wise, but would have likely required abandoning a good chunk of Ferelden to the darkspawn before they arrived, which is a tough thing for a King to do when no one thinks this is a true blight.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 novembre 2010 - 11:47 .

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

3) While you made this prt of the second point, I think it deserves separate consideration - Eamon's poisoning doesn't make sense. Loghain did it to remove Eamon's influence so he could confront Caillan - yet there seems nothing in the game to actually have wanted to confront him about, since the plot line aboue Celene being in Denerim was removed. Loghain did not know about any (speculative) plans to have Caillan marry Celene before Ostagar, and Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar. It's a plot hole that doesn't seem to have any explanation, and I can't see it in any good light for Loghain.

Why couldn't he just want Eamon and the Couslands (and we know that Bryce has been to Orlais only a year previously) out of the way because he's not pleased about the issue of the chevaliers and Cailan pretending the occupation never happened? He doesn't have to know about the marriage.

But Bryce is at Highever, and there's no indication that he has anything to do with the Chevaliers, Celene, or any marriage, nor any type of extra influence with Caillan - or any at all.  And frankly, so what if he'd been to Orlais?

Also, I'm surprised - pointing out that Loghain may want Bryce out of the way kind of indicates that he may have had a hand in Howe's action - something that Loghain defenders fervently argue against.  Unless there's some other plot against Bryce I'm unaware of?

But again, the main point it - why does he want these people out of the way?  Because of the Chevaliers?  There's really no indication of WHEN that request was made by Caillan, you know, so where is this coming from?

Frankly, the problem, as I see it, is that Eamon's poisoning - regardless of the goal of is (living or dying) - is a remnant of that Celene in Denerim issue, that didn't get taken out.  Otherwise, it honestly makes almost no sense, game-wise - why poison a man in the middle of a war, effectively keeping his men out of any future battles?  That's kind of silly, no?

[Sarah1281]

But Bryce is at Highever, and there's no indication that he has anything to do with the Chevaliers, Celene, or any marriage, nor any type of extra influence with Caillan - or any at all. And frankly, so what if he'd been to Orlais?

Bryce is at Highever. I am not in any way suggesting he had anything to do with the Chevaliers. Bryce going to Orlais recently (and perhaps even often) suggests he is amiable towards them. The fact that Cailan is pretending that the occupation never happened to the extent that he doesn't appear upset about the four legions of chevaliers explains why Loghain is so concerned and wanting more Orlesian-supporting people out of the way.

Also, I'm surprised - pointing out that Loghain may want Bryce out of the way kind of indicates that he may have had a hand in Howe's action - something that Loghain defenders fervently argue against. Unless there's some other plot against Bryce I'm unaware of?

While it should be obvious that I don't speak for all Loghain defenders, it is my personal belief that the best way to make sense of Howe feeling secure in taking out the Couslands before Ostagar without Loghain plotting to murder Cailan pre-Ostagar is if Loghain allied with Howe pre-massacre in his plan to confront Cailan about the Orlesians (and this also explains the messy timeline about Eamon's poisoning). He took care of Eamon and asked Howe to find a way to weaken the Couslands support for the king...and Howe chose to kill them. Now, I could be wrong and Loghain didn't so much as think about the Couslands before he found out they were dead. This still doesn't mean that it was impossible that Loghain wanted Eamon out of the way so Eamon wouldn't get in the way when he confronted Loghain about the chevaliers and him being too friendly with Orlais.

But again, the main point it - why does he want these people out of the way? Because of the Chevaliers? There's really no indication of WHEN that request was made by Caillan, you know, so where is this coming from?

Well, we know that mail can't travel all that fast back then. Cailan had time to ask the GWs for help, the GWs had time to run in past Celene or whoever and find out they'd be taking chevaliers/arrange to bring them, and Loghain and Cailan both had time to find out that the Grey Wardens were planning on bringing chevaliers. I think that's plenty of time for Loghain to decide to stage an intervention and even if it isn't, I don't think Cailan's worrying friendliness with the Orlesians started up here. Loghain was likely concerned before.

Frankly, the problem, as I see it, is that Eamon's poisoning - regardless of the goal of is (living or dying) - is a remnant of that Celene in Denerim issue, that didn't get taken out. Otherwise, it honestly makes almost no sense, game-wise - why poison a man in the middle of a war, effectively keeping his men out of any future battles? That's kind of silly, no?

I just can't see that. Eamon being poisoned is such a big part of the game and requires a whole new treaty. If there was no reason to poison him after the scrapped Celene/Denerim issue and it no longer made sense, they'd alter it so that it DID make sense. And hey, perhaps they did just that. The point is, as it currently stands I feel that Logahin had reason to want Eamon out of the way without having to know about Cailan's plan.

[Addai]

Back to the kingship discussion, I was thinking how Howe calls him "sire." It makes me wonder if Howe was pushing the idea of Loghain being king. He had designs to get rid of Anora, after all.

[Persephone]

As I recall, David Gaider confirmed that Loghain knew nothing of the Cousland massacre.

[Wulfram]

I think part of Howe's job is to do the things Loghain needs but doesn't want to have to know about.

[Persephone]

Wulfram wrote...

I think part of Howe's job is to do the things Loghain needs but doesn't want to have to know about.

I doubt they were working together at that point yet.

[Wulfram]

Persephone wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I think part of Howe's job is to do the things Loghain needs but doesn't want to have to know about.

I doubt they were working together at that point yet.

I'm convinced they were

Here's David Gaider on the relationship between Howe and Loghain

In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely
under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself
how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number
of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two
were already in bed together

I think the Cousland massacre is the prime example of something Howe did without Loghain's involvement or approval

[Elhanan]

For nyself, it is is more important is that Loghain chose to continue to ally with this vermin after discovering the crimes and methods Howe used/would use to rule.

[Dean_the_Young]

How could he continue without critical allies afterwards? To remove Howe would be to remove his own right hand, and his ability to manage things.

[Wulfram]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

How could he continue without critical allies afterwards? To remove Howe would be to remove his own right hand, and his ability to manage things.

Considering Howe killed the second most important noble in the Kingdom and imprisoned the Queen without informing Loghain first, Loghain's ability to manage things was pretty limited with Howe.

[CalJones]

My interpretation is that Loghain was completely preoccupied (as evidenced by the two cutscenes) and Howe was able to get a lot past him as a result. We can see that when he hires Zevran - Loghain is clearly not impressed but more or less says "yeah, whatever" and goes back to drinking.

I'm not saying this excuses him in any way, but I don't think he'd have approved of a lot of the things Howe did were he not too busy worrying about the Orlesians, putting the smack down on the Bannorn and guilt tripping over Cailan (and I do think he felt bad about Cailan - much as he was a moron, he was still Maric's son).