1429 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

outlaworacle wrote...

eschilde wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

Again, that is also questionable proof. Howe intended to murder the entire Cousland family so that there would be no one to refute his planned accusation that they were in league with the Orlesians. He had proof of some kind, though what it was is hard to say. Yes, Cailin finds out if you're a HN, but as Duncan puts it, "Had we not escaped, Howe would have killed us and told you whatever story he wished." This is not evidence that Loghain was working with Howe, only evidence that Howe intended to get rid of the Couslands. Loghain knows, but there are a million and one reasons why he doesn't choose to pursue justice for the Couslands.

Aaaaand I called it. How would Howe expect to get away with it if Calian is charge? As you say, there's a million and one reasons that Loghain would turn a blind eye, but Loghain's not in charge when Howe does it. Cailan is. Which means Howe (especially being the coward that he is) did it because he knew Cailan would never get the chance to bring him to justice.

Cailin doesn't know unless you, the HN, tell him. If you're not an HN, it's pretty likely that he would never find out. Howe intended for everyone who was in Castle Cousland to be killed, and wasn't expecting anyone to get out alive. Also, given Cailin's somewhat gullible personality, if there was no conflicting testimony, Howe could convince him that the Couslands were in league with the Orlesians. If Anora and Loghain were convinced of that fact, it's possible that the crown would also still not pursue justice for them.

Yes, Howe was taking a big risk by killing the Couslands, but that doesn't mean Loghain was in any way involved. 

[Ulicus]

Asylumer wrote...

I look at it more like science... revisit and use new evidence to create a better theory. Return to Ostagar hopefully gives us a lot more to think about.

I'm sure it will. Hopefully it'll completely clear up the issue of whether or not Loghain wanted Cailan to die (was plotting to "kill him" all along and planned the battle accordingly) or was willing to let Cailan die (wanted Cailan away from the front lines and, ideally, didn't want to fight the battle at all).

I'm pretty firmly in the latter camp. Loghain got Wynne to apologise to him and say she was wrong in her assumptions, after all. (Not that such proves anything)

Asylumer wrote...

It's also exteremly unlikely that the General can afford being away from the battle. Possible? Maybe... but he'd have an incredibly small window considering that your mage and Jowan leave at roughly the same time. Pretty impressive to run all the way to Denerim and make it back before the PC.

I agree. I can't imagine Loghain leaving Ostagar once he arrived. Still, someone's bound to quote Sherlock Holmes at me....

Modifié par Ulicus, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:24 .

[Bullets McDeath]

DPSSOC wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

I would really appreciate it if the Loghain defense could read this post 1,000 times outloud until it sticks 

But they probably won't. In fact, I give it less than 5 minutes before they have some poorly constructed half-logic counter-argument, probably having to do with Howe acting alone

Well Howe certainly wasn't expecting there to be any survivors so no one would know the Couslands were dead until they returned from Ostagar.  So Howe kills the Couslands, takes his army to Ostagar claiming Bryce or his wife had fallen ill so he wouldn't be there.  Now let's assume Howe had also made plans to eliminate Fergus durring the battle; so Fergus dies in the battle and when the army heads back Howe goes to check on his friend to find him and his family dead.  With no explanation of who was responsible and Howe being a close friend he stood a good chance of being made Teryn.  The problem arose when the Human Noble escaped with Duncan so Howe now has to think defensively and probably either went into hiding or fortified himself in his estate.  On learning the results of the battle Howe approaches Loghain at or after the Landsmeet where Teagan calls Loghain out and offers his allegiance.  At this point Loghain is somewhat desperate for allies and takes Howe's offer despite knowing what kind of snake he is.

Howe clearly did not have a contigency for Fergus. If he did, Fergus would be... y'know, dead. Either way... why did Howe do it? Not for the lulz. He did it for the power... at Loghain's behest, because Loghain needed to elminate anyone who could challenge his claim to the regency. Which, if you think on that, should prove my point. He had obviously betrayed Cailan ahead of time, planning to let him die so he could take his throne.

[SuperMaoriFulla]

Loghain is calculating, ruthless, and lethally pragmatic. But he's not insane. Moral consequences and popularity be damned, he will do whatever it takes to keep Ferelden strong and independent.

If Loghain is paranoid about the Orlesians, he has every reason to be. He lived under the brutal Orlesian occupation of Ferelden. The Chevaliers were used to crush any and all resistance to the occupation. Loghain, his father, and many other common Fereldens were forced into a hard-scrabble fight to survive in this oppressive time.

Loghain is a commoner unwillingly elevated to nobility, and while the common people look to Loghain as a great battle commander and an example of social promotion; the nobility see a man who will consider doing anything to ensure that Ferelden is kept strong and independent. While most nobles are willing to forigve Maric, Loghain is another matter entirely.

Loghain witnessed capitulation and collaboration of many Ferelden's during the occupation - not just the nobility, but the Chantry as well. He proved quite willing to kill anyone seen as collaborators or dissenters against Maric's rebellion. Maric would try to convince with words, Loghain would persuade at sword point. Maric is revered, Loghain is feared.

Loghain is not indifferent to elves and he doesn't consider all elves insignificant. He was one of the few rebel commanders in Maric's army to recognize the worth of the elves and employs them effectively as night skirmishers and guerrilla fighters to harass the Orlesian forces. In fact his 'Night Elves' company becomes so effective that the Orlesian forces and their Ferelden collaborators balk at the thought of being posted on guard duty, or sent on patrols at night.

In many ways, Loghain is a shadow of Maric. Willing to do the things that Maric knows should be done, but cannot be seen doing, or will not openly condone. The problem is that Loghain eventually begins to see himself as the one who knows what is best for Ferelden's interests, even if that means deceiving and acting in secret without Maric knowing about it. And the results aren't always pretty.

Modifié par SuperMaoriFulla, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

KariTR wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
If he had retreated without reason his treachery would have been clear. He waited for the signal NOT to come, so it would not be his fault he didn´t help, but his plan failed.

But he retreated anyway. And he was still blamed. So whether the signal was lit or not is largely irrelevent.
He could have easily claimed that the signal was not lit, and no one would have been the wiser.

No one would have been the wiser? What about those who survived the battle, like Wynne. You think in the face of their evidence to the contrary he could have claimed the beacon wasnt lit?
I think youre stretching a bit their Knight.

Why not? He could produce other witnesses to say that the beacon wans't lit and claim that those fighting were too into it that they couldn't notice the signal. It wasn't unfeasable.
And if indeed Loghain planned for the beacon not to be lit, what was he waiting for? If he knew that the beacon was not going to be lit, because of supposedely engineering it, why the hell was he just standing there?

He coudl have easily left and say that the beacon wasn't lit on time. Instead he waited until the beacon was lit. Why?


  

[eschilde]

outlaworacle wrote...

Howe clearly did not have a contigency for Fergus. If he did, Fergus would be... y'know, dead. Either way... why did Howe do it? Not for the lulz. He did it for the power... at Loghain's behest, because Loghain needed to elminate anyone who could challenge his claim to the regency. Which, if you think on that, should prove my point. He had obviously betrayed Cailan ahead of time, planning to let him die so he could take his throne.

You don't know that he didn't have a contingency for Fergus, because Fergus was lost in the Wilds during/after Ostagar. It's completely believable that Howe was intending to hire a Crow to go after him. Given Howe's disposition, personally, I find it unlikely he didn't have plans for Fergus. They just never come into play because Fergus doesn't make any trouble for him throughout the game.

I agree that Eamon's poisoning is the biggest indication that Loghain did intend to overthrow Cailin, but as I said, that doesn't mean he had anything to do with the Couslands, or that he planned Ostagar to get Cailin killed.

[MyKingdomCold]

I haven't read all of the posts in this topic, but I do have a question about one of the conversations/cutscenes. It's right after King Calian decides that you and Alistair will light the beacon. 

King Calian says something like it'll be a glorious victory.  Then Loghain says something like "yes a glorious victory for us all". Then it shows him with a mean/evil look and it cuts away. 

[Bullets McDeath]

eschilde wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

eschilde wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

Again, that is also questionable proof. Howe intended to murder the entire Cousland family so that there would be no one to refute his planned accusation that they were in league with the Orlesians. He had proof of some kind, though what it was is hard to say. Yes, Cailin finds out if you're a HN, but as Duncan puts it, "Had we not escaped, Howe would have killed us and told you whatever story he wished." This is not evidence that Loghain was working with Howe, only evidence that Howe intended to get rid of the Couslands. Loghain knows, but there are a million and one reasons why he doesn't choose to pursue justice for the Couslands.

Aaaaand I called it. How would Howe expect to get away with it if Calian is charge? As you say, there's a million and one reasons that Loghain would turn a blind eye, but Loghain's not in charge when Howe does it. Cailan is. Which means Howe (especially being the coward that he is) did it because he knew Cailan would never get the chance to bring him to justice.

Cailin doesn't know unless you, the HN, tell him. If you're not an HN, it's pretty likely that he would never find out. Howe intended for everyone who was in Castle Cousland to be killed, and wasn't expecting anyone to get out alive. Also, given Cailin's somewhat gullible personality, if there was no conflicting testimony, Howe could convince him that the Couslands were in league with the Orlesians. If Anora and Loghain were convinced of that fact, it's possible that the crown would also still not pursue justice for them.

Yes, Howe was taking a big risk by killing the Couslands, but that doesn't mean Loghain was in any way involved. 

Yet again, as Loghain's lackey, why would Howe do this? The Couslands weren't murdered simply to sate Howe's bloodlust, though did have his own agenda against them. They were killed because they could erode Loghain's support for the throne. If they were killed prior to Ostagar because they could intefere with Loghain's plan to seize the throne, that means Loghain was planning to seize the throne prior to Ostagar, which means he purposefully left Cailan to die.

Case closed (you'd hope).

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The elves in the alienage are weaklings and cowards. Why should he think they can be useful?

They can always be some idiots with a sword catching the arrows so his own troops are fresh for the fight....
Or do you honestly think Loghain wouldn´t think like that?
Besides, tell a city elf PC they are weaklings... "I just killed 20 guards and an Arl´s son, ooo elves are sooo weak and can´t fight at all...."   Sure.

His unwillingness to allow Orlesian troops is not stupid. He would have looked stupid if Orlais came in, saved Ferelden, and then occupied it.

If they would plan to occupy it it would be better to let them in. I, on his place, would have let them come and made sure so many of them die that they are no danger anymore.

Less Fereldans die, that is another advantage.

I mean, if they wanted to occupy Ferelden, attacking after the battle would be just the better for Orlais, as the Fereldan army will have losses and the Orlaisian one will still be fresh. If they fight together the Orlaisians will be weakened too.

Not to mention that the average soldier is much less likely to kill the guys he fought with...

[Bullets McDeath]

eschilde wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Howe clearly did not have a contigency for Fergus. If he did, Fergus would be... y'know, dead. Either way... why did Howe do it? Not for the lulz. He did it for the power... at Loghain's behest, because Loghain needed to elminate anyone who could challenge his claim to the regency. Which, if you think on that, should prove my point. He had obviously betrayed Cailan ahead of time, planning to let him die so he could take his throne.

You don't know that he didn't have a contingency for Fergus, because Fergus was lost in the Wilds during/after Ostagar. It's completely believable that Howe was intending to hire a Crow to go after him. Given Howe's disposition, personally, I find it unlikely he didn't have plans for Fergus. They just never come into play because Fergus doesn't make any trouble for him throughout the game.

I agree that Eamon's poisoning is the biggest indication that Loghain did intend to overthrow Cailin, but as I said, that doesn't mean he had anything to do with the Couslands, or that he planned Ostagar to get Cailin killed.

That's absolute and complete conjecture though. He MIGHT have had a contigency for Fergus. He MIGHT have actually killed the Couslands to seize control of the Dragonballs. :innocent: C'mon, you're pulling it out of thin air here...

[Bullets McDeath]

double post

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:31 .

[Tirigon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He coudl have easily left and say that the beacon wasn't lit on time. Instead he waited until the beacon was lit. Why?

  

Let me answer this once and for all: Because Loghain is a ******.
I´m sure you or I could have made a much better treachery than Loghain, but Loghain is just not bright enough.... That´s it. And that´s all.

[eschilde]

outlaworacle wrote...

Yet again, as Loghain's lackey, why would Howe do this? The Couslands weren't murdered simply to sate Howe's bloodlust, though did have his own agenda against them. They were killed because they could erode Loghain's support for the throne. If they were killed prior to Ostagar because they could intefere with Loghain's plan to seize the throne, that means Loghain was planning to seize the throne prior to Ostagar, which means he purposefully left Cailan to die.

Case closed (you'd hope).

Uh, he does it because he hates the Couslands and sees an opportunity to get rid of them. Bryce Cousland apparently recently came back from a trip to Orlais, it's certainly possible that Howe has amassed some sort of evidence against the Couslands in order to get rid of them and take the Highever teyrnir. If you read the codexes and talked to Aldous, you would know that the Howes have a longstanding grudge against the Couslands. Not to mention, Howe is incredibly ambitious. What better time to get rid of the Couslands than a period where he has evidence and the king is occupied elsewhere? By the time the blight has been fought off it's perfectly feasible that since the deed was already done Cailin wouldn't bother seeking justice for the Couslands.

[Bullets McDeath]

eschilde wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Yet again, as Loghain's lackey, why would Howe do this? The Couslands weren't murdered simply to sate Howe's bloodlust, though did have his own agenda against them. They were killed because they could erode Loghain's support for the throne. If they were killed prior to Ostagar because they could intefere with Loghain's plan to seize the throne, that means Loghain was planning to seize the throne prior to Ostagar, which means he purposefully left Cailan to die.

Case closed (you'd hope).

Uh, he does it because he hates the Couslands and sees an opportunity to get rid of them. Bryce Cousland apparently recently came back from a trip to Orlais, it's certainly possible that Howe has amassed some sort of evidence against the Couslands in order to get rid of them and take the Highever teyrnir. If you read the codexes and talked to Aldous, you would know that the Howes have a longstanding grudge against the Couslands. Not to mention, Howe is incredibly ambitious. What better time to get rid of the Couslands than a period where he has evidence and the king is occupied elsewhere? By the time the blight has been fought off it's perfectly feasible that since the deed was already done Cailin wouldn't bother seeking justice for the Couslands.

::sigh:: I've read the codex, thanks. As I noted in my post, Howe had plenty of reasons to want revenge on the Cousland family, that doesn't change the fact that the only reason HE ACTED on that revenge wish is at the behest of Loghain, who needed the Couslands removed for his own reasons.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The elves in the alienage are weaklings and cowards. Why should he think they can be useful?

They can always be some idiots with a sword catching the arrows so his own troops are fresh for the fight....
Or do you honestly think Loghain wouldn´t think like that?
Besides, tell a city elf PC they are weaklings... "I just killed 20 guards and an Arl´s son, ooo elves are sooo weak and can´t fight at all...."   Sure.

That's only one elf. The rest are weak and cowardly. They live like slaves for centuries and they can't do **** about it. They lost their culture, their language and their identity very easily. If that's not weakness I don't know what is.

And there are not enough elves for them to be good cannon fodder. And there is enough to make a small fortune out of them, to buy better equipments for the troops. If I was playing an RTS and I had the option to sell a few idiots to gain better soldiers, I would do so in a heartbeat.

His unwillingness to allow Orlesian troops is not stupid. He would have looked stupid if Orlais came in, saved Ferelden, and then occupied it.

If they would plan to occupy it it would be better to let them in. I, on his place, would have let them come and made sure so many of them die that they are no danger anymore.

Less Fereldans die, that is another advantage.

I mean, if they wanted to occupy Ferelden, attacking after the battle would be just the better for Orlais, as the Fereldan army will have losses and the Orlaisian one will still be fresh. If they fight together the Orlaisians will be weakened too.

Not to mention that the average soldier is much less likely to kill the guys he fought with...

Because the Orlesians are so stupid they would allow themselves to be used that way.....
IF the Orlesians had planned to occupy Ferelden, they would have waited until Ferelden was at its weakest, then come to the "rescue". They wouldn't have fought if Ferelden wasn't providing any effort.

You are coming up with alot of assumptions here. IT doesn't matter what soldiers feel, they do as they are told. To not consider this possibility and take action according to this, is being politically imprudent.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:37 .

[eschilde]

outlaworacle wrote...

eschilde wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Howe clearly did not have a contigency for Fergus. If he did, Fergus would be... y'know, dead. Either way... why did Howe do it? Not for the lulz. He did it for the power... at Loghain's behest, because Loghain needed to elminate anyone who could challenge his claim to the regency. Which, if you think on that, should prove my point. He had obviously betrayed Cailan ahead of time, planning to let him die so he could take his throne.

You don't know that he didn't have a contingency for Fergus, because Fergus was lost in the Wilds during/after Ostagar. It's completely believable that Howe was intending to hire a Crow to go after him. Given Howe's disposition, personally, I find it unlikely he didn't have plans for Fergus. They just never come into play because Fergus doesn't make any trouble for him throughout the game.

I agree that Eamon's poisoning is the biggest indication that Loghain did intend to overthrow Cailin, but as I said, that doesn't mean he had anything to do with the Couslands, or that he planned Ostagar to get Cailin killed.

That's absolute and complete conjecture though. He MIGHT have had a contigency for Fergus. He MIGHT have actually killed the Couslands to seize control of the Dragonballs. :innocent: C'mon, you're pulling it out of thin air here...

You're right, it is conjecture, but it's certainly reasonable. Fergus doesn't die at Ostagar. Given the other nobles' friendly encounters with the HN in Denerim, it would be incredibly stupid for Howe to not get rid of him; Fergus left with a good portion of the Cousland military and would certainly act against him, not to mention the Couslands have high standing with other nobles', unlike Howe, and would probably easily garner support. The fact that Howe doesn't obviously do anything against Fergus doesn't really support anything either way. Fergus' being alive would continue the problem of the Couslands challenging Loghain's authority, anyway, so Loghain and Howe would be actively working to get rid of him if they were really in league with each other. As I said, it doesn't come into play because Fergus is out of commission for most of the game.

Modifié par eschilde, 10 janvier 2010 - 07:38 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Y'know, I often wonder/lament why videogames don't have more complex stories and characters. Now I know why. As soon as even a single shade of grey is thrown into the mix, people can't tell up from down. I guess some people need their villain to twirl his mustache to get the point.

[j_j_m]

eschilde wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

Again, that is also questionable proof. Howe intended to murder the entire Cousland family so that there would be no one to refute his planned accusation that they were in league with the Orlesians. He had proof of some kind, though what it was is hard to say. Yes, Cailin finds out if you're a HN, but as Duncan puts it, "Had we not escaped, Howe would have killed us and told you whatever story he wished." This is not evidence that Loghain was working with Howe, only evidence that Howe intended to get rid of the Couslands. Loghain knows, but there are a million and one reasons why he doesn't choose to pursue justice for the Couslands.

How very convenient how Arl Howe then ends up with Loghain and gets promoted by him, don't you think? The Cousland murders (competitors for Loghain's throne) just happened to go perfectly according Loghain's needs.

How do you think Howe was going to get away with it if we assume he acted alone and didn't know King Cailan was to die? You think the nobles of Ferelden are that dumb not to know that the Howes and Couslands don't get along and Arl Howe could be responsible for the murders? They immediately knew Loghain had something to do with Ostagar. You think Howe was also thinking the King would stand still and do nothing? There is really no other explanation for the disappearance of the Couslands except Arl Howe. The darkspawn would have ravaged the whole land leaving evidence.

There is little doubt he would need some powerful backings in order to have the confidence to do this and get away with it, and conveniently Loghain happened to be there just for him.

So either Howe is a complete idiot who wanted to get caught and die, or he did what Loghain wanted because it makes perfect logical sense.

[tmp7704]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not a perfect analogy. We know it's impossible to travel from New York to Tokyo in a few minutes. While it's perfectly possible for Cailan and Ducan to die when the beacon is lit, and for our PC to be hit shortly after.
Unless it's proven wrong, I think Cailan and Duncan died right after the beacon was lit. Why? Because Duncan just realised, for the first time, that the beacon was lit before he seemingly died.

While it is possible i'd rather consider it a (subverted) case of "always close" ( http://tvtropes.org/...ain/AlwaysClose ) i.e. the preference to skip the borings bits in order to have a more dramatic spectacle. You'd have to admit that otherwise Loghain deciding to depart just as the beacon is lit (rather than charge in earlier if he's ineed aware the signal is taking too long) *and* the king getting killed just about at the same time... that's one heck of timing coincidences going on.

Also, Duncan staring at the beacon when the death comes can be equally well interpreted as "it's (been) lit, why didn't they come" /shakefist sort of action, not necessarily indicating the light was out until just then. It's not like people fighting the darkspawn could just stop fighting, sit back and wait for the cavalry as soon as it was activated.

[Bullets McDeath]

eschilde wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

eschilde wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

Howe clearly did not have a contigency for Fergus. If he did, Fergus would be... y'know, dead. Either way... why did Howe do it? Not for the lulz. He did it for the power... at Loghain's behest, because Loghain needed to elminate anyone who could challenge his claim to the regency. Which, if you think on that, should prove my point. He had obviously betrayed Cailan ahead of time, planning to let him die so he could take his throne.

You don't know that he didn't have a contingency for Fergus, because Fergus was lost in the Wilds during/after Ostagar. It's completely believable that Howe was intending to hire a Crow to go after him. Given Howe's disposition, personally, I find it unlikely he didn't have plans for Fergus. They just never come into play because Fergus doesn't make any trouble for him throughout the game.

I agree that Eamon's poisoning is the biggest indication that Loghain did intend to overthrow Cailin, but as I said, that doesn't mean he had anything to do with the Couslands, or that he planned Ostagar to get Cailin killed.

That's absolute and complete conjecture though. He MIGHT have had a contigency for Fergus. He MIGHT have actually killed the Couslands to seize control of the Dragonballs. :innocent: C'mon, you're pulling it out of thin air here...

You're right, it is conjecture, but it's certainly reasonable. Fergus doesn't die at Ostagar. Given the other nobles' friendly encounters with the HN in Denerim, it would be incredibly stupid for Howe to not get rid of him; Fergus left with a good portion of the Cousland military and would certainly act against him, not to mention the Couslands have high standing with other nobles', unlike Howe, and would probably easily garner support. The fact that Howe doesn't obviously do anything against Fergus doesn't really support anything either way. Fergus' being alive would continue the problem of the Couslands challenging Loghain's authority, anyway, so Loghain and Howe would be actively working to get rid of him if they were really in league with each other. As I said, it doesn't come into play because Fergus is out of commission for most of the game.

That's what I'm saying. It's completely irrelevant to this argument.

[KnightofPhoenix]

tmp7704 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not a perfect analogy. We know it's impossible to travel from New York to Tokyo in a few minutes. While it's perfectly possible for Cailan and Ducan to die when the beacon is lit, and for our PC to be hit shortly after.
Unless it's proven wrong, I think Cailan and Duncan died right after the beacon was lit. Why? Because Duncan just realised, for the first time, that the beacon was lit before he seemingly died.

While it is possible i'd rather consider it a (subverted) case of "always close" ( http://tvtropes.org/...ain/AlwaysClose ) i.e. the preference to skip the borings bits in order to have a more dramatic spectacle. You'd have to admit that otherwise Loghain deciding to depart just as the beacon is lit (rather than charge in earlier if he's ineed aware the signal is taking too long) *and* the king getting killed just about at the same time... that's one heck of timing coincidences going on.

Also, Duncan staring at the beacon when the death comes can be equally well interpreted as "it's (been) lit, why didn't they come" /shakefist sort of action, not necessarily indicating the light was out until just then. It's not like people fighting the darkspawn could just stop fighting, sit back and wait for the cavalry as soon as it was activated.

All of this is purely specualtion. What I meant by dying when the beacon is lit is a few minutes shortly after. It couldn't have been an hour or more.

[DPSSOC]

outlaworacle wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Additional evidence that Loghain planned his coup in advance comes from Cailen when he says that he doesn't understand how Howe thought he could get away with it. That answer is clear in retrospect. Howe knew he could get away with it because he knew Cailen would be dead. It not only implies that Loghain planned to seize power, but that making sure the king was dead was a specific part of that plan. I suspect that if Cailen had survived the battle somehow, he would have met with an 'accident.' It also implies that Howe knows Loghain won't object to his actions.

I would really appreciate it if the Loghain defense could read this post 1,000 times outloud until it sticks 

But they probably won't. In fact, I give it less than 5 minutes before they have some poorly constructed half-logic counter-argument, probably having to do with Howe acting alone

Well Howe certainly wasn't expecting there to be any survivors so no one would know the Couslands were dead until they returned from Ostagar.  So Howe kills the Couslands, takes his army to Ostagar claiming Bryce or his wife had fallen ill so he wouldn't be there.  Now let's assume Howe had also made plans to eliminate Fergus durring the battle; so Fergus dies in the battle and when the army heads back Howe goes to check on his friend to find him and his family dead.  With no explanation of who was responsible and Howe being a close friend he stood a good chance of being made Teryn.  The problem arose when the Human Noble escaped with Duncan so Howe now has to think defensively and probably either went into hiding or fortified himself in his estate.  On learning the results of the battle Howe approaches Loghain at or after the Landsmeet where Teagan calls Loghain out and offers his allegiance.  At this point Loghain is somewhat desperate for allies and takes Howe's offer despite knowing what kind of snake he is.

Howe clearly did not have a contigency for Fergus. If he did, Fergus would be... y'know, dead. Either way... why did Howe do it? Not for the lulz. He did it for the power... at Loghain's behest, because Loghain needed to elminate anyone who could challenge his claim to the regency. Which, if you think on that, should prove my point. He had obviously betrayed Cailan ahead of time, planning to let him die so he could take his throne.

He didn't enact his contingency, that's not to say he didn't have one.  If you're a Human Noble you escape and Howe knows that the King knows what he did, so why waste the effort of killing Fergus if his plan's pooched.  If you're not a Human Noble who's to say he didn't kill Fergus.  As for his motives I point out, Howe's position, both as an Arl and friend of Bryce, leaves him in a good position to become Teryn.  Had you not escaped Howe could have gone to Ostagar claimed the Couslands were in league with Orlais or whatever story he'd had planned to explain the sudden death of all the Couslands.  Maybe that was his plan for Fergus, prove the Couslands traitors and Fergus is tried and executed, Howe becomes Teryn as reward for exposing the plot.

[eschilde]

j_j_m wrote...

How very convenient how Arl Howe then ends up with Loghain and gets promoted by him, don't you think? The Cousland murders (competitors for Loghain's throne) just happened to go perfectly according Loghain's needs.

How do you think Howe was going to get away with it if we assume he acted alone and didn't know King Cailan was to die? You think the nobles of Ferelden are that dumb not to know that the Howes and Couslands don't get along and Arl Howe could be responsible for the murders? They immediately knew Loghain had something to do with Ostagar. You think Howe was also thinking the King would stand still and do nothing? There is really no other explanation for the disappearance of the Couslands except Arl Howe. The darkspawn would have ravaged the whole land leaving evidence.

There is little doubt he would need some powerful backings in order to have the confidence to do this and get away with it, and conveniently Loghain happened to be there just for him.

So either Howe is a complete idiot who wanted to get caught and die, or he did what Loghain wanted because it makes perfect logical sense.

Howe intended to brand the Couslands as traitors to Fereldan. If he got rid of the Cousland line, the other nobles would have no reason to act against him, because there would be no heir to the line to contest his bid for Highever. The throne (Cailin and Anora) would also have no reason to pursue justice for the Couslands, because why would they? The Couslands are dead, better to have someone in control of the teyrnir than not. 

Also, the only evidence against Howe's doing this is the HN and Duncan. If the HN didn't live to tell Cailin about it, there would be no evidence. It could be very easy for Howe to say to Cailin (just as an example) "I confronted Bryce Cousland about being in league with the Orlesians, and he attacked me. In self defense I had to wipe out the entire castle." 

My point is that Howe could easily have been acting alone, not necessarily that he was, but that you cannot point at the Cousland massacre as complete proof of Loghain and Howe working together prior to Ostagar.

[eschilde]

outlaworacle wrote...

That's what I'm saying. It's completely irrelevant to this argument.

Er, okay. Why are we arguing about it then? :b

[Asylumer]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

King Calian says something like it'll be a glorious victory.  Then Loghain says something like "yes a glorious victory for us all". Then it shows him with a mean/evil look and it cuts away. 

Hmm... I had forgotten about that scene. I think the whole game was intentionally misleading the player to think Loghain was responsible though, as a part of the "be careful what you believe" theme you encounter with Flemeth. What Loghain says is ominous, but itself can mean a few things. The easiest conclusion to jump to is that he had something planned... but he is just as likely to have said it out of bitterness towards Cailan's obsession with glory.

Let's be honest here, we do not have direct evidence of Loghain's involvement or lack of, except for a few comments in the Landsmeet dialogue. Those would win this argument for me by themselves, but I consider it cheating to rely completely on Word of God. The best we can do is construct a plausible scenario that accounts for as many things as possible. The biggest problem I have with the betrayal theory is that it assumes Loghain is completely insane -- yet that fails to account for his mercy towards his daughter and how easily he submits to the player. It's a huge hole that cannot be accounted for. I've done what I could to construct what I see as a much more likely scenario and addressed counter-arguments when they've appeared.

The only one that's made me reconsider my scenario is this, why Loghain would create a plan without a backup? The best counter to that I can think of is that Loghain only settled on that plan by compromising with Cailan, and Cailain refused to change his mind about it when Loghain asked him to reconsider going to the front. I'm not comfortable with that counter yet though, not until I go back and refresh my memory on Cailan and Loghains arguments with each other.