1429 réponses à ce sujet

[j_j_m]

eschilde wrote...

Loghain didn't need to work with Howe prior to Ostagar to work with him after. Why does the Cousland massacre need to be an 'exception'? I am simply arguing that Loghain did not plan Ostagar to remove Cailin from the throne, only that after Cailin was dead he made a move to secure his position.

If only the game developers believed that, they might have left the corny "yes, a glorious moment for us all" followed with a obviously dishonest expression out. Lol...........

Are we seriously arguing about this? I'm beginning to believe this is some kind of a joke.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

outlaworacle wrote...

No, it's just a remarkable coincidence (and extremely bad storytelling) if Howe did it on his own. Because no one would have believed him, he's universally reviled and Bryce was universally loved. The only way he could possibly realistically hope to get away with it is if he knew Cailan wouldn't be in a position to punish him. Which he did know. Because he was in cahoots with Loghain. Much like he is throughout the entire game.

Honestly, eschilde, you have to reach faaaaaaaaar and wiiiiiiiiiiiiide to make the assumption that they didn't work together when every thing in the game points to just that.

I can't remember when and where, but when I played through with my human noble, I remember somewhere someone had stated that Loghain at least supported Howe in his move to remove the Couslands. It's been a while, and I'm going to play through again, but I'm sure I ran into a piece of dialogue stated that. Of course, my own question is whether or not it was simply a piece of rumor or heresay to be taken with a grain of salt, or came from a very solid source.

Regardless of which, I think the fact that the Couslands were wiped out prior to Ostagar is a pretty compelling bit of evidence, as other pointed out, that Loghain was plotting well before Ostagar. Howe is a greedy, ambitous, and ruthless bastard, but he isn't stupid. The Couslands are the second most powerful family in ferelden, and other than Gwaeron, Highever the only Teyrner left. You just don't attack and wipe out a family like that without major reprecussions, even if you do have rigged up "evidence" against them, without some major consequences for your own position and safety, especially that of your family. You learn the Couslands are very much a pro-royalist family who support the king, and thus, wiping them out would have brought down the wrath of the throne itself. Howe, being clever enough to realize this, would not have made such a brash, suicidal move unless:

1. Someone with alot more power than he was backing him and throwing their support behind them. Since we can safely rule out Cailain and Anora, there is only one other opolitical power in ferelden with that kind of weight: the only other teyrn, Loghain.

2. He knew that king's potentially violent objection to his actions would not be a problem, that there were going to be some very big changes at the top that would ensure his takeover of Highever would go unpunished. In otherwords, someone who knew the king would not be a problem for much longer. Which means, that whoever informed him of this had good reason to believe the king would be removed from the picture. Unless someone can come up with someone else, pre-Ostagar, who was plotting to kill, or knew the king would die, then the only suspect left is Loghain.

Given that evidence points to eamon being poisoned pre-Ostagar, then it would make sense for Loghain to support the extermination of the Couslands. Bryce was pretty much second only to the throne in power and influence, according to the codexes, and as a royal supporter, he would have been an even bigger threat than Eamon in opposition to Loghain's attempt to wrangle the throne, and could have easily turned the entire Landsmeet against him. The removal of the Cousland family, so soon before Ostagar, and then post Ostagar, Howe and Loghain becoming bosom buddies is simply to suspect to write off as coincidence.

My verdict: I find Loghain guilty of being a veeeeeery naughty boy from the beginning.

[Thomas9321]

I always saw the most damning of Loghain's action as the ones post Ostagar.. We may never know how premeditated his retreat was, and it will undoubtedly remain a point of contention (hopefully, the upcoming DLC will shed some light on this).

However, his seizing of the regency, against the wishes of the Bannorn and causing a civil war is clearly unlawful and against Ferelden's best interests, this also seems to be the most important aspect to the characters in the game also, as the point of the Landsmeet is to stop the civil war, not bring him to justice for Ostagar.

His use of assassins to despose of his political oppponents (Eamon & The Warden), is again immoral and unjust, this is clearly seen in the Landsmeet where if brought up, will sway many nobles against him.

Now also against him is his to collaborations with maleficar, both knowingly (Jowan) and unknowingly (Uldred). This is against Chantry law and against the Maker (a deity that Loghain and all of Ferelden believes in). There was also a third collaboration with a Blood Mage - the Tevinter slaver. So is willingness to collaborate with maleificar is a massive point against him, and certainly sways the Landsmeet it comes to light.

My final point is the slavery in the Alienage. This is completely unforgivable and is totally unneccessary. There were a multitude of options available to him to raise money, taxes for one or revenue from his own terynir of Gwaren. Furthermore, this money from the slaves went only to the civil war as Loghain makes no attempt to combat the blight.

My final, final point. Loghain ignored the Blight. He only ever ackowledges it at the Landsmeet when it becomes clear to him its the only way he can win support. So, his criminal negligence of threats to Ferelden is a massive reason he needs to be bought to justice.

In conclusion, we might never know why Loghain quit the field at Ostagar. It may be he is just blamed because the battle was lost despite it not being his fault. However, his actions as regent are wrong and are crimes against Ferelden of the highest order, and likely treason. Does he deserve to die?  No, infact the most just option is to let him become a Warden. But executing him is justifiable, but in light of his past he does deserve a chance at redemption.

[Bullets McDeath]

I know what you mean, jjm. I'm trying hard not to just lash out with nerd rage... but it really takes almost willfull ignorance not to see that Loghain had his betrayal planned and the Cousland murder was part of it.

[Tirigon]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Some points I'd like to make:

1. Loghain is not evil.  He did not do these things just for evil's sake or out of a lust for power. He generally did what he thought was right to protect Ferelden.  

 In this he reminds me of Mass Effect's 'villian' Saren.  Both did whatever it took  to save the world/universe. And is that not the trademark of a good person or even a hero? Selflesly doing what is good.

The only thing that you can really accuse Loghain of is being misguided.

2. On the slavery subject: Inter arma enim silent leges.

3.  A lot of people want to execute Loghain for his 'crimes'. They seem to want vengeance or justice. Why exactly? What ever he may have done is pretty irrelvant at the time of the Landsmeet. There is a Blight going on and every warrior is needed. Your obligation to stop the Blight supercedes such things as justice, morality and vengance.

1. "I tried my best" is another way to say "I did the worst". Besides, every idiot mass murderer thinks he´s doing the right thing and selflessly sacrificing something for the greater good.

2. THIS IS SH!T. If you truly think so the mass murders comitted by the German Wehrmacht during World War 2 were ok, too. After all, it was during a war.

3. The Blight does not supercede morality. If you don´t care for justice and freedom you aren´t better than your enemies.

[EverlastingFantasy]

Whether he betrayed the King or not I still don`t ever recruit him because he just seems like a douche....

[Apophis2412]

Interesting thought: The Landsmeet was upset that Loghain sold elves into slavery? But what were they upset about?  There are two possibilities:

A That fact that Loghain allowed slavery. That it was the elves that were enslaved is irrelavant to the nobles. They are a lesser race after all. Why care about them?

B. The fact that elves were kidnapped against their will.

Or in short what part of Loghain crime was evil, according to the nobles? The slavery part or the elven part?

[Asylumer]

Apophis2412 wrote...

A That fact that Loghain allowed slavery. That it was the elves that were enslaved is irrelavant to the nobles. They are a lesser race after all. Why care about them?

B. The fact that elves were kidnapped against their will.

Or in short what part of Loghain crime was evil, according to the nobles? The slavery part or the elven part?

Slavery is a big no-no in Ferelden society. Even when it comes to elves.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Apophis2412 wrote...

Interesting thought: The Landsmeet was upset that Loghain sold elves into slavery? But what were they upset about?  There are two possibilities:

A That fact that Loghain allowed slavery. That it was the elves that were enslaved is irrelavant to the nobles. They are a lesser race after all. Why care about them?

B. The fact that elves were kidnapped against their will.

Or in short what part of Loghain crime was evil, according to the nobles? The slavery part or the elven part?

The slavery bit. Elves are considered second class citizens, true, but the general attitude in Ferelden is that even second class citizens should get to work for pay, however paltry a sum it is. Not to mention that even second class, elves still are citizens, and what's to stop Loghain from selling humans into slavery?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Tirigon wrote...
That might well be true, yet it does not give others the right to sell you as slave. Besides, they didn´t LOOSE their culture. It was TAKEN AWAY by the humans who forbade the elvish language and religion..

That means they lost it. No power can take a culture or religion away from you, except if you are weak.  

Tirigon wrote...
The fact the Fereldens were racists does not change the fact that Loghain is cruel and criminal when selling them as slaves. Even Anora, and she is not a friend of elves as we know, is appalled by that. Besides, the reaction of the priestess in the city elf origin shows that there are people who don´t like the elves being suppressed.

Fair enough, but he was in a context where nobody of importance cared.
And Anora didn't give a damn, she just wanted her father out of the way.

Tirigon wrote...Scipio was a single man. And it´s a difference if you are ordered to destroy a city you are at war with since centuries and killing the guys at whose side you fought just days ago.

Scipio was a general and a charismatic one at that. He could have easily disobeyed orders, or at least tell his troops not to pillage and sack the whole city. But he didn't. 2/3 of the city was exterminated.

And Orlais has ample of troops at its disposal, it could send another invasion force. Though I very much doubt that the Orlesian solders would rebel because they are ordered to invade Ferelden. It never happened historically.  

I don´t say that. I think he will say: "If the Orlaisians plan to attack us it´s better to have them here fighting with us so some of them die while more of us survive than fighting alone and allowing them to invade with an army that is not yet fatigued by fighting."

No, because if they save Ferelden, that means Ferelden is depedent on Orlais and many would see Orlais as liberators instead of invaders. For example, look at what the Soviet Union did to Eastern Europe. Yosef Tito, in his wisdom, made sure Yugolsavia frees itself on its own without Soviet aid preicely because he doesn't want the russians to invade his country.

The plan you are proposeing would have been an epic failure. Orlais would have not been maniuplated like that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2010 - 08:44 .

[melkathi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If I was playing an RTS and I had the option to sell a few idiots to gain better soldiers, I would do so in a heartbeat.

You are justifying something because you would do it in an RTS?


This man has won the thread.

Modifié par melkathi, 10 janvier 2010 - 08:44 .

[Aseya]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There was 0 proof that there was a blight. He realises that it's a Blight later, but initially, there is no proof except for Grey warden "feelings".
And the fact that only Grey Wardens can defeat a Blight is for reasons no one knows. Nobody knows that a Grey Arden is tainted. Nobody knows why and how a Grey Warden is the only being that could kill an Archdemon.
It's been 400 years since the last blight. Loghain dismissed those stories as smiple legends and myths. It wasn't clear that the Grey Wardens are needed.

Had the Grey Wardens explained how and why they are needed, that would have been different. Of course, they can't afford to do that. So it's neither side's fault.

Thats not true - Loghain with the rest of the army has been fighting groups of darkspawn before the big Ostagar battle who prior to blight stuck to deeproads, he knows the history of Ferelden and previous blights.
Even if he does not belive its blight when Duncan says so as a nation army general and strategist not to consider blight as explanation of sudden massive outbreak is ridicoulus.

Non greay wardens may not know why and how Grey Warden kills an Archdemon but they do know thats what greyqrden do and thats what stops the blight.
Beside people are not as ignorant above grey wardens as you seem to make it out ot be just becasue last blight was 400 years ago. Reading codex entries and talking to different people people shows they dont doubt the importance of grey wardens. Loghian may think they  act  on behalf of Orleasians but he is not ignorant  of their role in blight. Even Cailan acknowledged that in the meeting before the battle.

As a general in charge of a nation army  there is nothing politicaly correct, logical or rational to hunt the grey wardens and is definately not in best interest of Ferelden. that decision was made purely out of his paranoia and fear.

[KnightofPhoenix]

melkathi wrote...
You are justifying something because you would do it in an RTS?


This man has won the thread.

Then let me rephrase that. If I am ruling a country under war and I desperatly need money, I would sell the elves in a heartbeat. I would do so out of necessity, not out of hatred.  

[kgav]

eschilde wrote...


I'm fairly sure that Loghain didn't know Anora was imprisoned. Cauthrien didn't, after all, when she comes to stop you from murdering everyone in Howe's household. Anora being imprisoned was Howe's brilliant idea, and it's fairly likely that working with the slavers was his idea as well, given that the order to seal the Alienage is given by Howe.

You don't know why Cauthrien is there! Loghain may have sent her to transfer Anora to his prison. She acts in the name of the regent so arriving there and seeing carnage you deservedly unleashed on Howe and his men she tried to arrest the PC. 

[Apophis2412]

Tirigon wrote...

Apophis2412 wrote...

Some points I'd like to make:

1. Loghain is not evil.  He did not do these things just for evil's sake or out of a lust for power. He generally did what he thought was right to protect Ferelden.  

 In this he reminds me of Mass Effect's 'villian' Saren.  Both did whatever it took  to save the world/universe. And is that not the trademark of a good person or even a hero? Selflesly doing what is good.

The only thing that you can really accuse Loghain of is being misguided.

2. On the slavery subject: Inter arma enim silent leges.

3.  A lot of people want to execute Loghain for his 'crimes'. They seem to want vengeance or justice. Why exactly? What ever he may have done is pretty irrelvant at the time of the Landsmeet. There is a Blight going on and every warrior is needed. Your obligation to stop the Blight supercedes such things as justice, morality and vengance.

1. "I tried my best" is another way to say "I did the worst". Besides, every idiot mass murderer thinks he´s doing the right thing and selflessly sacrificing something for the greater good.

2. THIS IS SH!T. If you truly think so the mass murders comitted by the German Wehrmacht during World War 2 were ok, too. After all, it was during a war.

3. The Blight does not supercede morality. If you don´t care for justice and freedom you aren´t better than your enemies.

1. Evil people are people who wilfully and without consideration do bad things. People who do bad things, because they can't help themselves (ie are insane) are not evil, but just pitiful.

2. What the ****-regime did was not right, because it served no purpose.  

3. That is not what Riordan or Duncan would say.  They, and the rest of the Grey Wardens, do pretty amoral things to stop the Blight, wether it be recruiting criminals (Daveth, Duncan, Loghain, Dwarven Commoner), pull people away from their famalies (Dwarven Commoner, Jory) or use Blood Magic (Avernus).

And what does it matter that I'm no better than my enemies?

[eschilde]

outlaworacle wrote...

eschilde wrote...

As you once told me, read the codex. Everyone knows Howe is a murderous toad. There is absolutely no way he could have expected to get away with the Cousland murder, acting on his own. It is plain as day if you think about it, just not spelled out explicitly. You have to make assumptions that go against everything in the lore to say that Howe could have branded the Cousland's traitors. It is clear in the game that no one, least of all Cailan, would have bought that story.

Cailin doesn't have to buy the story. He just has to act in the best interests of Fereldan, which may not include seeking justice for a dead family. After all, clearing the Couslands' name may have little, no, or negative value to him after they're already dead.

Aside from the fact that they were close friends and among his most ardent supporters and counselours? Again, it's clear that Cailan would have sought justice for their deaths, had he himself not died due to Loghain's betrayal.

If there's no one to give testimony of the conditions of the Cousland massacre (which there wouldn't be, if Duncan and HN were not there) as I said, Howe could say it was self-defense. If he had sufficient evidence it may be enough to stay Cailin's hand, not to mention that Loghain and Anora are major powers behind the throne and could also convince Cailin not to move if they saw either no reason to, or negative repercussions for doing so.

Theoretically, if you weren't playing an HN and Cailin had lived, it's feasible that he could have been persuaded not to do anything about the Couslands. Possibly a high-tiered coercion check, but if Anora doesn't have 4th tier coercion, I don't know who does  

Regardless of whether or not Loghain planned for Cailin's death at Ostagar, his successive actions were damning. For his provable crimes, death is certainly a reasonable and proper punishment. However, if we are arguing that Loghain should have a chance at redemption, whether or not he planned Ostagar with the intention of killing Cailin can have a huge impact on the decision. Logically thinking it through, there is no solid evidence to refute the fact that Loghain may have made his decision to leave the field on the spot, rather than premeditating it, unless you assume Howe and Loghain were working together, which I believe cannot be proven.

It would be great if you could ask Loghain or Howe about this straight up, but I'd like to think the devs left it out to make whether Loghain planned Ostagar with such an intention ambiguous. As I said, I have no view on whether or not Loghain and Howe were working together prior to Ostagar. I simply think there is reasonable doubt against it, which can certainly affect ones' decision in recruiting him.

[eschilde]

kgav wrote...

You don't know why Cauthrien is there! Loghain may have sent her to transfer Anora to his prison. She acts in the name of the regent so arriving there and seeing carnage you deservedly unleashed on Howe and his men she tried to arrest the PC. 

You're right, you don't know that, but given that Cauthrien seems pretty lawful stupid I have some doubts on her acting abilities in this case. She is extremely self-righteous, and if you tell Anora to back you up, Cauthrien seems genuinely surprised. I am making an assumption here, but I do believe it's a reasonable assumption. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aseya wrote...
Thats not true - Loghain with the rest of the army has been fighting groups of darkspawn before the big Ostagar battle who prior to blight stuck to deeproads, he knows the history of Ferelden and previous blights.
Even if he does not belive its blight when Duncan says so as a nation army general and strategist not to consider blight as explanation of sudden massive outbreak is ridicoulus.

Non greay wardens may not know why and how Grey Warden kills an Archdemon but they do know thats what greyqrden do and thats what stops the blight.
Beside people are not as ignorant above grey wardens as you seem to make it out ot be just becasue last blight was 400 years ago. Reading codex entries and talking to different people people shows they dont doubt the importance of grey wardens. Loghian may think they  act  on behalf of Orleasians but he is not ignorant  of their role in blight. Even Cailan acknowledged that in the meeting before the battle.

As a general in charge of a nation army  there is nothing politicaly correct, logical or rational to hunt the grey wardens and is definately not in best interest of Ferelden. that decision was made purely out of his paranoia and fear.

Only the Dwarves know that the darkspawn are in the surface only during a blight. The rest don't. That's why Duncan was having a hard time explaining it. Adn that's why he said that he can't convince them only with hsi feelings (The dreams).

No, the people are told in stories that the Grey Wardens are needed. But they don't know that. They are just being told that. If you don't know why and how, then you don't really know, you are just being told. And codex entries are written by historians and shcolars in the unvierse and of course, they don't say how and why the Grey Wardens are needed. They just say they are because that's what the Grey Wardens say.

And Cailan doesn't aknowledge anything. He just read stories and wants to be a superheroe fighting alonside his favorite team. But he didn't know anything.  

[Ariella]

Ulicus wrote...

It'd make more sense to wait for Return to Ostagar before making a "complete" case for anything either way.

Robertthebard wrote...

We know the King is at Ostagar.  For all we know, and nothing is
stated to the contrary, Loghain arrived shortly before we do.  There is
not enough here to give a jury reasonable doubt.

Loghain's Guard: He and the king have been arguing for days ... Personally, I think the king should do what Teyrn Loghain tells him. Without the Teyrn, we wouldn't be doing as well here as we are.

The last sentence of the above implies that Loghain has been present for the previous victories at Ostagar, though it's not inconceivable that he travelled to Denerim for a short period.

No it doesn't... The Teyrn is a general, and the one coming up with the strategy. He didn't need to be there in person to implement them all.

[Bullets McDeath]

eschilde wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

eschilde wrote...

As you once told me, read the codex. Everyone knows Howe is a murderous toad. There is absolutely no way he could have expected to get away with the Cousland murder, acting on his own. It is plain as day if you think about it, just not spelled out explicitly. You have to make assumptions that go against everything in the lore to say that Howe could have branded the Cousland's traitors. It is clear in the game that no one, least of all Cailan, would have bought that story.

Cailin doesn't have to buy the story. He just has to act in the best interests of Fereldan, which may not include seeking justice for a dead family. After all, clearing the Couslands' name may have little, no, or negative value to him after they're already dead.

Aside from the fact that they were close friends and among his most ardent supporters and counselours? Again, it's clear that Cailan would have sought justice for their deaths, had he himself not died due to Loghain's betrayal.

If there's no one to give testimony of the conditions of the Cousland massacre (which there wouldn't be, if Duncan and HN were not there) as I said, Howe could say it was self-defense. If he had sufficient evidence it may be enough to stay Cailin's hand, not to mention that Loghain and Anora are major powers behind the throne and could also convince Cailin not to move if they saw either no reason to, or negative repercussions for doing so.

Theoretically, if you weren't playing an HN and Cailin had lived, it's feasible that he could have been persuaded not to do anything about the Couslands. Possibly a high-tiered coercion check, but if Anora doesn't have 4th tier coercion, I don't know who does  

Regardless of whether or not Loghain planned for Cailin's death at Ostagar, his successive actions were damning. For his provable crimes, death is certainly a reasonable and proper punishment. However, if we are arguing that Loghain should have a chance at redemption, whether or not he planned Ostagar with the intention of killing Cailin can have a huge impact on the decision. Logically thinking it through, there is no solid evidence to refute the fact that Loghain may have made his decision to leave the field on the spot, rather than premeditating it, unless you assume Howe and Loghain were working together, which I believe cannot be proven.

It would be great if you could ask Loghain or Howe about this straight up, but I'd like to think the devs left it out to make whether Loghain planned Ostagar with such an intention ambiguous. As I said, I have no view on whether or not Loghain and Howe were working together prior to Ostagar. I simply think there is reasonable doubt against it, which can certainly affect ones' decision in recruiting him.

But your arugment here is still predicated on the idea that anyone would have believed Howe's story, which given the lore, is highly questionable, at best. There's plenty of evidence that they were working together, as I've maintained throughout the debate... the strongest of which is, the game clearly shows they were working together, in order to seize power. Again, you'd really need evidence to suggest that they WEREN'T working together. There's absolutely no reason to assume they weren't, in this instance.

Modifié par outlaworacle, 10 janvier 2010 - 08:55 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

melkathi wrote...
You are justifying something because you would do it in an RTS?


This man has won the thread.

Then let me rephrase that. If I am ruling a country under war and I desperatly need money, I would sell the elves in a heartbeat. I would do so out of necessity, not out of hatred.  

Yes, and so did just about every other maniacal sociopathic dictator in history. Which is not helping Loghain's defense much here, as such a defense might gain approval from the old Reichstag, but this is Nuremburg, baby.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

melkathi wrote...
You are justifying something because you would do it in an RTS?


This man has won the thread.

Then let me rephrase that. If I am ruling a country under war and I desperatly need money, I would sell the elves in a heartbeat. I would do so out of necessity, not out of hatred.  

Yes, and so did just about every other maniacal sociopathic dictator in history. Which is not helping Loghain's defense much here, as such a defense might gain approval from the old Reichstag, but this is Nuremburg, baby.

No, that's what all leaders did. But you somehow think that war can be fought in a "good way".
Don't resort to godwins, it's useless. There is a big difference between doing something for the war effort and doing something that serves no purpose.

[eschilde]

outlaworacle wrote...

But your arugment here is still predicated on the idea that anyone would have believed Howe's story, which given the lore, is highly questionable, at best. There's plenty of evidence that they were working together, as I've maintained throughout the debate... the strongest of which is, the game clearly shows they were working together, in order to seize power. Again, you'd really need evidence to suggest that they WEREN'T working together. There's absolutely no reason to assume they weren't, in this instance.

As for no reason to assume they weren't working together, sure, I agree with that, unless your character is looking for reasons to think Loghain is redeemable. That's fairly unlikely as it is, but it's a possible situation.

Your evidence that Loghain and Howe weren't working together is also based on assumptions that Howe would have certain assumptions about what would happen when he initiated the massacre. Yes, Howe is generally considered a snake by other nobles, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't work with him or believe his story if it was convenient for their personal motives. Consider the fact that the other nobles do nothing against him when Loghain comes to power. That's not only because he has Loghain's support, it's also because the other nobles don't have a lot of incentive to move against him, which would be the same if he managed to successfully convince Cailin that he was justified in killing the Couslands. 

[Apophis2412]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

melkathi wrote...
You are justifying something because you would do it in an RTS?


This man has won the thread.

Then let me rephrase that. If I am ruling a country under war and I desperatly need money, I would sell the elves in a heartbeat. I would do so out of necessity, not out of hatred.  

Yes, and so did just about every other maniacal sociopathic dictator in history. Which is not helping Loghain's defense much here, as such a defense might gain approval from the old Reichstag, but this is Nuremburg, baby.

No, that's what all leaders did. But you somehow think that war can be fought in a "good way".
Don't resort to godwins, it's useless. There is a big difference between doing something for the war effort and doing something that serves no purpose.

So  it's basically ' Inter arma enim silent leges' because 'the need of the many outweighs the needs of the few'.

[Aseya]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Only the Dwarves know that the darkspawn are in the surface only during a blight. The rest don't. That's why Duncan was having a hard time explaining it. Adn that's why he said that he can't convince them only with hsi feelings (The dreams).

No, the people are told in stories that the Grey Wardens are needed. But they don't know that. They are just being told that. If you don't know why and how, then you don't really know, you are just being told. And codex entries are written by historians and shcolars in the unvierse and of course, they don't say how and why the Grey Wardens are needed. They just say they are because that's what the Grey Wardens say.

And Cailan doesn't aknowledge anything. He just read stories and wants to be a superheroe fighting alonside his favorite team. But he didn't know anything.  

Duncan had problems convincing people darkspawn have not been previously wiped out.  They may not wish to believe there is another blight but they were not unable to see the numbers of darkspawn popping up shown before Ostagar big battle.

People also know grey wardens kill archdemons and therefore ending the blight.  When Duncan states they need to consider posibility of archdemon appearence Cailan says thats why greywardens are there for.

Putting these 2 facts together ( even without further knowledge behind the rest of it ) and to think of a possibility of true blight AND the consequences would be a priority over an Orleasian invasion conspiracy theory to which there is no proof.

Or to put it in another way: Greywardens returns to Ferelden  while at the same time darkspawn starts popping out of the grass in numbers not seen in last 400 years - hmmm could there be a blight OR could it be Orleasian are taking over?
And in regards to prioritising the consequences of  possible  theories - what would be worst for the nation: blight or orleasian invasion?

Yeah definately a rational and logical decision to be made  by a man of his importance in society