617 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But the writers did say that they were influenced by the monomyth. When something that looks like it might be out of the monomyth turns up in a game, and the writers say they were influenced by the monomyth, it's not unreasonable to infer that the story element looks like it's from the monomyth because it is from the monomyth.

Doesn't make the interpretation certain, of course.

I'm not sure I get the reference.... The hero's journy a lot of the time doesnt end in a "divine" ending.  Perhaps the stories Ieldra2 reads have all ended like that, but there are many many more that dont.  The assumption that because the Heroe's journy can be pureply aragorical or thematic in its endings, doesnt mean this story does.

I hate to say this, but: read what I have written more closely. I have mentioned a *common* element in the monomyth, not a universal one. I have said Bioware *may* have tried to implement that because rather obviously, I cannot know if they tried that or not because they haven't said. And I fear in your case, the complaints "binary thinking" have some merit: there is a lot of space between the claim that the story of ME should be interpreted purely on an allegorical level (which I have not made), and the claim that it should be not at all interpreted on an allegorical level (which I also have not made). If I may quote Bioware: "There are elements in the ending which are not meant to be taken literally".

Just now, I was thinking about what an Akkadian myth and ME3's ending have in common. Sounds strange? Stories often draw on cultural memes, and mythology transports cultural memes. What do Ishtar (the Akkadian goddess) and Commander Shepard have in common? Both, at a critical point in their journey, experience a sequence of events where they are progressively stripped of more and more of their power and agency. Is this parallel accidental? For anyone who hasn't studied mythology at least somewhat, answering "no" may sound like the hook for a conspiracy theory. For me, the parallel is obvious. Was it intentional? No idea. I tend to think not, but people who use the monomyth take their inspiration from the strangest places so I wouldn't count it impossible. Whatever the case, both stories draw on on slightly different variants of the same mythological meme.

I'm sorry but you are reaching, a lot.   You are trying to find simularities in other soruses of fiction to strengthen your belief instead of taking the source of fiction ME3, as presented, without exterior interpritations.  You presented your "belief" as the proper way to look at the ending, instead of properly contextualizing that your soul goal was to try and make the game fit your vision, instead of seeing if the game actually DID fit your desires.  

IF you are trying to find meaning in alagory, inside the MEU, then you shouldp robably confine your reasoning, inside the confines of the MEU.  It seems you are willing to go to drastic lengths to make sure your world view of is applicable to ME3, and I'm just not seeing it, without outside sources or help.

I'm sorry but based on your way of thinking, I'm not sure how you dont think the IT theory is the most viable algorical reasoning, within the confines of the MEU.  However, I'm quite sure you are not willing to admit that IT has more basis then your view point.

[TheRealJayDee]

Auld Wulf is starting to remind of this Amioran guy who roamed the boards declaring everyone who couldn't prove he'd written a doctoral thesis on "order vs chaos" to be intellectually unfit to even comment on the endings at all.

[Eshaye]

Oh shut up. All endings are terrible due to the fact that the catalyst is terrible and the most rage enducing trilogy wrap-up I've seen since 'Lost' ended.

Just pick your favorite color and be done with it. Any reasoning will get you no where. And if ME4 does occur after the events of ME3 do you really think ANY of theses choices will actually matter and shape ME4? Yeah no. It will not happen.

It's all flavor, therefore your OP and arguments for why your choice creates a better future is null and void.

[CosmicGnosis]

john_sheparrd wrote...

destroy forever
****off with your synthesis bull****

Is this finally the time to declare that BioWare has completely broken the fanbase? When a straightforward opinion thread receives this kind of response, something is very, very wrong.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

destroy forever
****off with your synthesis bull****

Is this finally the time to declare that BioWare has completely broken the fanbase? When a straightforward opinion thread receives this kind of response, something is very, very wrong.

The world is big. Lots of idiots exist. Nothing to worry about.

[dreamgazer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The world is big. Lots of idiots exist. Nothing to worry about.

+1

[wright1978]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

destroy forever
****off with your synthesis bull****

Is this finally the time to declare that BioWare has completely broken the fanbase? When a straightforward opinion thread receives this kind of response, something is very, very wrong.

Thought that was clear by now.

[CosmicGnosis]

Eshaye wrote...

Oh shut up. All endings are terrible due to the fact that the catalyst is terrible and the most rage enducing trilogy wrap-up I've seen since 'Lost' ended.

Just pick your favorite color and be done with it. Any reasoning will get you no where. And if ME4 does occur after the events of ME3 do you really think ANY of theses choices will actually matter and shape ME4? Yeah no. It will not happen.

It's all flavor, therefore your OP and arguments for why your choice creates a better future is null and void.

Shut up? You're telling him to shut up? If this had been a pro-Destroy thread, would you have told him to shut up?

[Hurbster]

Heh, all the endings are terrible. Destroy is just the best of a very bad bunch.

[1337b0r0m1r]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Bioware has gone to great pains to assure us that whatever we do, it ends reasonably well. With the possible exception of Renegade Control, Destroy ends reasonably well, Control ends reasonably well, Synthesis ends reasonably well, even if you Refuse, things eventually end reasonably well. We all win, the endings just show us the style of the future we are creating, the themes and memes that will dominate civilization. None of them can be objectively considered bad, you can only disagree with the dominating themes and memes. 

All advanced life in the galaxy was at the brink of extinction, many billion dead, all populated areas, whole planets eveb, ravaged beyond recognition, some races possibly close to extinction...  with either the most important infrastructure destroyed for the time being the survivors being threated by famine, epidemics and what not (Destroy), or the Reapers still being around, just being controlled by someone else - things surely won't end badly this time!  (Control), or every single person possibly irreversibly fused into some weird greenish cyborg (Synthesis) - boy, this war surely ended "reasonably well"!

By that logic - damn, how happy Europe and Asia must have felt after World War II! The genocide didn't quite succeed, perhaps not even 100 million dead, not all major cities destroyed, only two nuclear bombs, 
and benign a benign presence is watching over the lands now. The Jews even got their own, independent state back as a result, after more than 2000 years, so one could really say everything turned out for the best. How boring!

wright1978 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Is this finally the time to declare that BioWare has completely broken the fanbase? When a straightforward opinion thread receives this kind of response, something is very, very wrong.

Thought that was clear by now.

Don't think of yourself as quite that important. Or numerous, for that matter.

Modifié par 1337b0r0m1r, 14 février 2013 - 11:18 .

[JesseLee202]

john_sheparrd wrote...

destroy forever
****off with your synthesis bull****

I don't pick synthesis. But I also don't say things like that to their fanbase either.

While I don't agree with them, I can still respect them. I suggest you try to do the same.

---

As for the OP, no, Destroy is not boring at all. I can think of numerous events that could take place post-destroy, just as you do with synthesis.

[TheRealJayDee]

What bothers me most is that I have only one Shepard who would not have a hard time choosing at the end because he'd not trust the Catalyst and not because he'd find all the options horryfing, but because all the options would be appealing to him - my megalomaniac human supremacist renegade adept.

Destroy? Yay, kill the Reapers - who gives a **** about synthetics? Those things aren't even alive, and thus probably worth even less than batarians. Least favourite choice though because of likely demise and thus not being able to bath in the glory of his actions and getting elected Galatic President.

Control?  Who would be better suited to rule this galaxy than his unparalleld will and intellect? All the power he ever dreamed of, plus basically immortality - what's not to love...?!

Synthesis? The scope would scare even him a bit at first, but in the end the thought of uplifting every being in the galaxy onto a new stage of existence via his own superior "essence" would not fail to impress him. Would he be dead? Yes, but since everything would be part "him" that would be okay.

Sadly/luckily Bioware made it impossible for me to play this character in ME3. Sadly because I would be able to kind of enjoy the endings (role)playing him. Luckily because I'm not sure I'd be much happier than I am now knowing that HE alone of all my characters got a really fitting and satisfying conclusion to his story.

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 14 février 2013 - 11:48 .

[Eshaye]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Eshaye wrote...

Oh shut up. All endings are terrible due to the fact that the catalyst is terrible and the most rage enducing trilogy wrap-up I've seen since 'Lost' ended.

Just pick your favorite color and be done with it. Any reasoning will get you no where. And if ME4 does occur after the events of ME3 do you really think ANY of theses choices will actually matter and shape ME4? Yeah no. It will not happen.

It's all flavor, therefore your OP and arguments for why your choice creates a better future is null and void.

Shut up? You're telling him to shut up? If this had been a pro-Destroy thread, would you have told him to shut up?

Yes. The whole debate is moot. I don't understand the need to change people's mind about something that's a personal choice. Bioware so far has been very good at letting people keep their own stories so far even when they do decide on a canon (DAO>DA2). 


Also my first choice for the ending was Synthesis because I wanted to save as many lives as possible, and then changed my mind when I saw the result. All I could think was:" Shepard is indoctrinated and this is all a dream and out there the Reapers are ripping everyone apart or processing them to goo" 

I just can't believe it myself, that doesn't mean it isn't valid for other people. And again with such varying endings I can't bring myself to believe that any of these will be canon and actually affect the next mass effect. 

Modifié par Eshaye, 14 février 2013 - 11:54 .

[mass perfection]

ME4 post-Destroy would be WAY more boring than post-Control and Synthesis.

[Indy_S]

To be clear, Ieldra is not saying that Destroy is bad here. They are saying that Destroy is bad in this aspect. One part does not equal the whole.

[Mathias]

mass perfection wrote...

ME4 post-Destroy would be WAY more boring than post-Control and Synthesis.

How exactly? Destroy would set up the most wiggle room for a sequel. In Synthesis, if you take the ending as literally as it presents itself, it creates a peaceful utopia where every is immortal, has limitless knowledge, and is allied with The Reapers. You can't really set up some sort of conflict without having to retcon Synthesis in some way. Synthesis is very boring from a story writing perspective.

[Fawx9]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

destroy forever
****off with your synthesis bull****

Is this finally the time to declare that BioWare has completely broken the fanbase? When a straightforward opinion thread receives this kind of response, something is very, very wrong.

Nope, it's just the internet in general.

There are very few boards that are all fluffly wuffly like some make the rest of the internet out to be.

[Whybother]

Destroy is the best choice at preserving free will of sentients:
- Refuse kills them.
- Control creates God Emperor Not-Shepard that everyone has to live with. I don't think that is free will you are living with, since nobody would want to upset whatever being is controlling the Reapers, and that being insists it is not Shepard.
- Synthesis forces everyone in the galaxy to become part-synthetic (or part-organic) regardless of how they believe.
- Destroy kills EDI and the Geth (if alive), yes, but both were willing to die to destroy the Reapers. EDI says as such, the Geth knew the score and they may not be coming back from this. So it in essence preserved their free will (in this case to die for a noble cause.)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

JasonShepard wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

What I would have liked to have seen, and perhaps would like to see is a BW mod done to add bots to the MP to fill in for missing squadmates. You fill in with your SP squadmates. Also, you get an e-mail where the reapers were making a push and you have a random mission to do there that raised your readiness. This mission could be done in either regular MP or private MP. Of course the higher the level you play at the more your readiness gets raised.

That sounds... better than what we got. Frankly, a single player, no internet required, version of the MP should have been available. A way of influencing the Galactic Readiness without hooking up to the rest of the world. But that's a different conversation...

But back to this Destroy ending.... I'll paraphrase it.

"Do I trust the galaxy to save itself? That's what keeps gnawing in the back of my mind. The truth is, I don't know. After everything I've seen, all the fighting, and the chaos around me. I only know what I want to believe: somehow, we will triumph. These past few months, I faced many life-threatening situations. I could have given up many times, but my need to know the truth, to uncover the secrets that others were hiding, and to survive, forced me to keep on going. Most of the time, I tried to keep my values in mind, knowing my actions did not have to harm others. I held on to my humanity, resisting the urge to abuse power or resources in order to meet my goals. And in the end, I got the job done. But does this mean I have the right to choose for everyone? No. Because it isn't up to me.

"Ordinary men and women will have to decide together what course galactic civilization should take. The kind of people who, time and time again, have picked and chosen the future in highly practical ways - slowing change when it's negative, speeding it up when it's good. Can they do it again? I don't know. But I do know I'm not about to let anyone, including myself, stand in their way.

"Here, The Illusive Man is dead, Anderson is dead, and the Intelligence is all that remains. It is forcing me to make a choice for everyone. It has presented me with three choices: that of The Illusive Man, that of Anderson, and its own choice. It told me early on that my choice is not acceptable. That of keeping our own form and working out our own differences. At this point the only thing standing in the way of ordinary people is the Intelligence. There is only one choice I can make to remove that obstacle from the people and give them that chance to prove themselves again. It must be the trifecta. (*shoots tube*)"

See, I agree on all points, yet I settle for Control. Primarily because of the Geth, because I want - no, need  - to preserve the fragile peace between the Geth and the Quarians. It's the best evidence of what you're saying that we can work out our own differences. It's not perfect, there's no guarrantee that it'll last, but I won't be the one to end it prematurely.
The plan was to repair the relays and then disappear and/or fly into a star. Of course, the EC doesn't show that (my one and only complaint about the EC's content) so I'm forced into a bit of headcanoning to get the ending I want.
(Specifically I headcanon that Shepard wasn't expecting the Relay damage - as of the EC it's no longer mentioned - and changed his plans from "Take Reapers out of Galaxy and never come back" to "Repair relays" and then got sidetracked by this idea of protecting the galaxy (hence the EC narration). Eventually he comes to his senses and leaves...)

Well, in my play, I had Geth VI. There was no peace possible. I had to pick a side. I sided with the Quarians. Tali was like a sister.

Regarding the MP, they still should have had that available as well. Honestly I met 5 people who are on my friends list through it.

[Jadebaby]

All of the endings are unworthy of the story that came before.

Modifié par Jadebaby, 15 février 2013 - 12:43 .

[Jadebaby]

I find it somewhat concerning that after almost a year, people have to put down other endings to put their own up on a pedastool.

Quite sad.

[Sundance31us]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

john_sheparrd wrote...

destroy forever
****off with your synthesis bull****

Is this finally the time to declare that BioWare has completely broken the fanbase? When a straightforward opinion thread receives this kind of response, something is very, very wrong.

Don't blame BW for bad behavior...we are all responsible for how we act toward each other.

[Indy_S]

Jadebaby wrote...

I find it somewhat concerning that after almost a year, people have to put down other endings to put their own up on a pedastool.

Quite sad.

I know. Can't we just accept the issues with the endings we chose alongside their good points?

[Wayning_Star]

I'd worry less about what seems right or what feels wrong...than actually realizing that the catalyst has bought out the destroy option by stating that it won't work. Just like it said its current solution will not work.

Control is a dare, as if it knows that it won't hold. Looking at Saren and TIM..kind of rings true, that observaton. Shep being the catalystreapershep has at least two flaws..

Refuse is, well Refuse, so..

Synthesis is just a matter of accepting the lore and story facts.

So, what actually stops the reaper threat and ends chaos? (Shep's mission by the way.)

[Mathias]

Jadebaby wrote...

All of the endings are unworthy of the story that came before.

Well yeah but, that kinda goes without saying lol.