399 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Deerber wrote...

I only did this because I know you're not among them, I know you're a smart and nice guy and I know the time I took to write it down won't be wasted... Hopefully 

I'm not a guy.

At any rate, I agree with most of the stuff you said, I just really dislike it when people go for the "you will never be able to do what I do" argument (or in this case what someone else did), even if its done in the heat of the moment or in retaliation to a silly claim.

Also, I go out for an hour and this thread totally went to hell it seems... 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 14 février 2013 - 10:16 .

[Bolo Xia]

Cyonan wrote...

Bolo Xia wrote...
good answer's, i dont see the argument falling apart, more like me "splitting hairs" tho.

but also raises the question, is it better to be fair to the whole group or be fair to the few?
in other words, setting those few back to make it fair to everyone else.

in this situation, i usually use the extreme human sacrafice as the example:
is it better that we sacrafice 10 people to save 1000 or should everyone suffer because of those 10 people?
maybe even a 3rd option there, as to ignore it because, its not really a life and death issue.

granted, this is a game and nobody is actually being sacraficed or suffering, but the fair and unfair factor still remains.

i agree, game balance in this situation is most likely the major concern for most parties and would be broken or trivilized if everyone had that many consumables.
so most likely, nothing will change after this debate is burried in the hoard of threads.

plus the only way we can change anything in this debate is via our "Chief/Judge/Executioner" or also know as the "Bioware Team".
which case they seem to feel strongly that those few people are not an issue, after all we can only present our cases and hope for the best.

case 1: game balance for the whole is more important than the few, without punishing those who have legitly obtained an advantage.

case 2: fairness should not be overlooked and should not have a blurred line between individual's and should have to play by the same rules as everyone else, reguardles of how legit something was obtained since it is no longer obtainable.

im sure there are more case's out there, but these 2 seems the most relevant to this topic and both cases have plenty of merit IMO.

seems like case 2 is going to lose again tho, providing BW's stance on the issue.


anyway, thats the best i got  
also, a most enjoyable debate about something simple and complicated at the same time. 

maybe someday we will know and understand the answer to all of life's morality questions, all the way down to an unimportant non-life threatening issue in a video game. 

cheers 

I would argue that fairness is a case by case basis.

In the case of PS3 not being able to take part in the first couple of operations, you can give PS3 players commendation packs to make up for it and it doesn't take anything away from the PC/Xbox players who already had those commendation packs.

In this case however, you are taking something away from somebody when it doesn't really affect everybody else in a negative way, if it even affects them at all. I suspect if not for N7-Link, most of us would either have either not known or long forgotten about players with 6+ missiles.

On the point of game balance being more important for the many or the few, I don't believe that game balance is done for the purposes of keeping things fair for everybody but rather to promote variety which adds to replayability which keeps people playing longer.

that... is a damn good answer!

add:
debating with has been a real pleasure, maybe even epiphany inducing as well.

still trying to absorb/analyze your stance 

Modifié par Bolo Xia, 14 février 2013 - 10:19 .

[jlee375]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That doesn't mean the "official and sanctioned manner" in which they were handed out, and not removed later, is fair.

It wasn't fair, it was random by and large. It would be unfair to remove it from players who have the increased caps as they have done nothing wrong. I just consider it a small perk for the people who did start playing early. Albeit, one that was given out randomly and much like a lottery, even if it wasn't official. 

Modifié par jlee375, 14 février 2013 - 10:14 .

[CmnDwnWrkn]

jlee375 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That doesn't mean the "official and sanctioned manner" in which they were handed out, and not removed later, is fair.

It wasn't fair, it was random by and large. It would be unfair to remove it from players who have the increased caps as they have done nothing wrong. I just consider it a small perk for the people who did start playing early. Albeit, one that was given out randomly and much like a lottery, even if it wasn't official. 

People who randomly received extra comms packs for operations later had their weapon upgrades taken away.  People who stumble upon the character points glitch have been deemed cheaters by BioWare.  There is nothing wrong with taking something away from someone so that all players have to abide by the same rules and restrictions.

[jlee375]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

jlee375 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That doesn't mean the "official and sanctioned manner" in which they were handed out, and not removed later, is fair.

It wasn't fair, it was random by and large. It would be unfair to remove it from players who have the increased caps as they have done nothing wrong. I just consider it a small perk for the people who did start playing early. Albeit, one that was given out randomly and much like a lottery, even if it wasn't official. 

People who randomly received extra comms packs for operations later had their weapon upgrades taken away.  People who stumble upon the character points glitch have been deemed cheaters by BioWare.  There is nothing wrong with taking something away from someone so that all players have to abide by the same rules and restrictions.

Bioware never intended for the character glitch or the extra commendation pack glitch to occur. They did, at one point, intend to have the consumables cap at 10. So they gave out upgrades, at random, for players during the launch period. It would be unfair to take them away, because they "gave" them out at a time when they intended for that to be a feature. 

Modifié par jlee375, 14 février 2013 - 10:21 .

[lazysundae]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

jlee375 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That doesn't mean the "official and sanctioned manner" in which they were handed out, and not removed later, is fair.

It wasn't fair, it was random by and large. It would be unfair to remove it from players who have the increased caps as they have done nothing wrong. I just consider it a small perk for the people who did start playing early. Albeit, one that was given out randomly and much like a lottery, even if it wasn't official. 

People who randomly received extra comms packs for operations later had their weapon upgrades taken away.  People who stumble upon the character points glitch have been deemed cheaters by BioWare.  There is nothing wrong with taking something away from someone so that all players have to abide by the same rules and restrictions.

You've named 2 cheats/exploitable glitches, and are comparing it to something that people received legitimately from Bioware.

[Asebstos]

This thread could use a little more whine.

[Pwet]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Captain, I detect huge quantities of jealousy in this sector!

Logic, let's ask Scotty to to beam them up on the Reapers planet 

[Knockingbr4in]

I just want to point out something: even if it is their game it doesn't mean that people with the BioWare tag under their name are right on every possible accounts. To many people act as if what a dev say is truth incarnate.

While I'm at it, something should be done about this 'over the average' cap of consumables which aren't attainable anymore. I don't know what, but something. You know, simply as a matter of principle. Fairness is something big in my book, and even if there are only a few with those consumables it's still goes against that.

[N172]

jlee375 wrote...

They got in before BW changed their mind and now it would be unfair to take it away from them. '

And seeing how it barely affects anything about the gameplay, there is no real reason to spend time making it so everyone can have it.

It depends on the player who uses them how much it affects gameplay, and the issue is not limited to cobras.

There actually is a "take nothing away"-solution:
- each use requires two of the specific consumable
- maximum 10
- double the ammount of consumables received (from 1/2/5 to 2/4/10)
- +2 capacity cards instead of +1 (unless player is at 9)
- new players start at 4
- everyone below 4 is upgraded to 4

This way there is nothing taken away, it is just a nerf.

Modifié par N172, 14 février 2013 - 10:33 .

[sandboxgod]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

The players who played at the beginning technically did not get an unfair advantage, every player had the capability to receive the same benefits.

This is a co-op game, there is no unfair advantage to these people, I would think you would more likely want these people on your team.

I do want them on my team and I do not want them nerfed. But they do have an advantage. They have achieved a state of nirvana that other players can not ever hope to ever, ever reach. 

Anyway, I do not know of anyone with 10 rockets so I'm not sweating this. But I disagree with ya

[FeralJester616]

lazysundae wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

jlee375 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That doesn't mean the "official and sanctioned manner" in which they were handed out, and not removed later, is fair.

It wasn't fair, it was random by and large. It would be unfair to remove it from players who have the increased caps as they have done nothing wrong. I just consider it a small perk for the people who did start playing early. Albeit, one that was given out randomly and much like a lottery, even if it wasn't official. 

People who randomly received extra comms packs for operations later had their weapon upgrades taken away.  People who stumble upon the character points glitch have been deemed cheaters by BioWare.  There is nothing wrong with taking something away from someone so that all players have to abide by the same rules and restrictions.

You've named 2 cheats/exploitable glitches, and are comparing it to something that people received legitimately from Bioware.

Yes, two cheats are mentioned. Well done, you win a cookie.
But from what I've personally seen in this thread, some of  those without seem to see it as cheating.

Not saying that stance is correct but I do see where they're coming from.

However, as BioWare originally intended everyone to have 10 eventually it is deffinatly a seperate issue.
Bringing those up as examples if fine and dandy, only if those that do realise that the afforementioned glitches/exploits were never intended, therefore taking away from those that did make use of them makes perfect sense.

As I stated before, I don't want players in my games that can fire off a rocket every wave if they want and still have some to spare if they spec for it.
More power to those that can; Congrats, you won the big cookie!
Just don't expect me to enjoy watching you fire rockets every wave. I will view you as a terribad dullard and that is my choice also. 

[Yenneffer]

Out of all the things in the game that could be considered inbalanced or bugged, this affects so few people that it might just not be viable to do anything about it. There are some more pressing issues in the game and even some of these probably won't be fixed. The devs only likely have limited resources and manpower at this point. The game has been out for a year, why the hell did THIS come up now?

[CmnDwnWrkn]

lazysundae wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

jlee375 wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

That doesn't mean the "official and sanctioned manner" in which they were handed out, and not removed later, is fair.

It wasn't fair, it was random by and large. It would be unfair to remove it from players who have the increased caps as they have done nothing wrong. I just consider it a small perk for the people who did start playing early. Albeit, one that was given out randomly and much like a lottery, even if it wasn't official. 

You've named 2 cheats/exploitable glitches, and are comparing it to something that people received legitimately from Bioware.

Yes, and I am allowed to compare these things, because the same "it's a
co-op" game excuse is to justify all of them.  Bryan stated "it's a
co-op game" as if that in and of itself demonstrates that something is
fair.  There are plenty of examples which would disprove this.  It's
kind of odd to see BioWare use this.

People who randomly received
extra comms packs for operations later had their weapon upgrades taken
away.  People who stumble upon the character points glitch have been
deemed cheaters by BioWare.  There is nothing wrong with taking
something away from someone so that all players have to abide by the
same rules and restrictions.

Modifié par CmnDwnWrkn, 14 février 2013 - 10:51 .

[PoetryAvenger]

I was all prepared to post a completely serious response until I reread the OP and saw that they compared this issue to that of gender equality, so eff that noise. 50 points from Gryffindor, go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.

(Although to stay on topic I really couldn't care less about this. Caps get lowered universally? Fine. Caps stay as they are? Also fine.)

[MindAssassin]

Look at all the bellyaching, whining quarians.  Who needs rockets when you can headbutt a Reaper into the next spiral arm?

Modifié par MindAssassin, 14 février 2013 - 10:55 .

[Bryan Johnson]

Alright to make a farther wiping statement

The extended caps were present from March 6 (launch day) until March 27th (the day we fixed it server side).

The amount of users that were affected were small, it is especially small now. I for the record do have above the cap, I have 6 thermal clips.

At the time (nearly a year ago), we decided that those who received the packs with extended capacities would not have them taken away. That was the decision we made, and it is one that largely no one complained about until this month, I think this might fall under a statute of limitations.

Furthermore there is plenty of things that have been done that players can say benefited the past players more than now and the players now etc.

Lets look, at launch there was no such thing as PSPs, no such thing as JEP, no such thing as Reserves/Arsenal. Character cards were not cap'd, level IV consumables didn't exist etc.

Lets say that less than 1% of the users currently playing have extended capacities, do you really want them dictating how the game is played? We have heard a lot of people argue against exactly that.

Another option is to take it away from those that have it currently, which I dont know about you guys but if suddenly after 11 months my stuff was taken away just because of "popular opinion". I would be fairly upset.

Game landscapes change over time.

[killer of stars]

Everyone should have the same level of consumables, this is the one and only unbalanced aspect across players in terms of in game aspects. Those that have them, do in fact have an unfair advantage while playing.

If it's so trivial that only a limited number of players have then, then there shouldn't be a problem with correcting their capacity to be inline with all the other players.

It's the principle of the whole matter.

[HolyAvenger]

If the number is extremely small, there is no point to being petty over principle.

[Nasulprak]

I think there is a reasonable solution to this late issue.

When the Challenges were introduced, they added Weekly operations to get the commendation packs. But also mentioned occasional larger scale operations would occur.

We currently, can have 31 out of the total 50 Promotional upgrades.

I propose that we either add Max Consumable upgrades to the Commendation pack pool (Which may make getting Valiant X harder, so some may not like that)
or
Do a few more Larger Scale operations that used to be every other week, but we have not seen for quite some time. The Community can once again unlock a max consumable.

[Kingston Atticus]

Justinmiles19 wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...

The players who played at the beginning technically did not get an unfair advantage, every player had the capability to receive the same benefits.

This is a co-op game, there is no unfair advantage to these people, I would think you would more likely want these people on your team.

I agree with Brojo

So do I, and not only that but most of the people I know who had all the extra consumables have moved on to other games and don't play me3 anymore. So you have tou take into account that the ones who spend all the time for the first couple of weeks to get the ten max before it was lowered to 5 are also the ones who are most likely burnt out on the game and have moved on so it is VERY rare for anyone with that many to be stumbled into in a PUG nowadays.

[Computron2000]

killer of stars wrote...

Everyone should have the same level of consumables, this is the one and only unbalanced aspect across players in terms of in game aspects. Those that have them, do in fact have an unfair advantage while playing.

If it's so trivial that only a limited number of players have then, then there shouldn't be a problem with correcting their capacity to be inline with all the other players.

It's the principle of the whole matter.

Which other players? The ones with a cap of 2? We should all have a cap of 2 then. Its the fairest as everyone is now on par with the newbies. Everyone except the newbies also gets stuff taken away so everyone gets affected. Thats almost the fairest option then.

I say almost because the newbies aren't affected. To be utterly fair, we must put the cap at 1. That way, everyone no matter when he joined, what he did, will have the same treatment. Thats the fairest. Everyone feels the pain.

[Daxamite]

I'm not sure the rockets are a big deal - in most of my matches people dont even bother using ANY rockets!

I don't want everyone to have access to 10 rockets a game unless theyre using Gear or something.

I dont think its fair that people who happened to play MP during a set time are the only ones who have access to it, whether its 0.1% or 10% or 99% of the player population. There should be a level playing field. Everyone should have the same depending on time spent in the game, ability to play etc, not just whether they played in March 2012 or not.

However I've never seen anyone fire 10 rockets so I cant say it really affects me.

[N172]

So, if BW or EA does something wrong and I (and noone else) receive a Valiant XI from my next commendation pack because of that, then i am allowed to keep it because i am just 1 player and did not do anything wrong?

If not, why is it different from those additional capacity upgrades?

[Kingston Atticus]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

Alright to make a farther wiping statement

The extended caps were present from March 6 (launch day) until March 27th (the day we fixed it server side).

The amount of users that were affected were small, it is especially small now. I for the record do have above the cap, I have 6 thermal clips.

At the time (nearly a year ago), we decided that those who received the packs with extended capacities would not have them taken away. That was the decision we made, and it is one that largely no one complained about until this month, I think this might fall under a statute of limitations.

Furthermore there is plenty of things that have been done that players can say benefited the past players more than now and the players now etc.

Lets look, at launch there was no such thing as PSPs, no such thing as JEP, no such thing as Reserves/Arsenal. Character cards were not cap'd, level IV consumables didn't exist etc.

Lets say that less than 1% of the users currently playing have extended capacities, do you really want them dictating how the game is played? We have heard a lot of people argue against exactly that.

Another option is to take it away from those that have it currently, which I dont know about you guys but if suddenly after 11 months my stuff was taken away just because of "popular opinion". I would be fairly upset.

Game landscapes change over time.

We also didn't get gear at launch. That was added in what July? That is why several of the long term players think gear is a crutch to the new players.
 
On topic, I say, who cares? Very few people have extended capacities and it's a TEAM game so there is NO problem. Nobody ever really complained until after the Trilogy release recently anyway. So no prob. Besides the new players who came in with the trilogy and are complaining have nothing to complain about. THe Trilogy cost them like 40$. Those of us who have played the game since ME1 have had to pay roughly 60$ a game. So they payed like 40$ and we payed over 180$. They got the trilogy for a LOT cheaper than us and a very small number of us (sadly NOT me) got extra consumables.